Academic dishonesty question

Parents Forum
1

<p>A friend in California writes me that her sophomore son was busted for cheating two days ago. He and a friend each did half of a 10-point homework assignment and traded answers. Teacher noticed the similar answers, talked to the kids, and they admitted what they had done.</p>

<p>According to her son, the teacher took it to her supervisor yesterday, decided to give them zeroes for the assignment (totally understandable) and is going to turn this in as an academic dishonesty matter. According to the boy, one violation doesn't show up on his records for colleges or anyone outside to see, but if he gets another one he will be immediately dropped with a zero from whatever class he's in and that will go on his permanent record.</p>

<p>The teacher is supposed to call my friend today. All admit what he did was wrong. But is there anything she should ask/get clarified to make sure this one infraction doesn't show up on his "permanent record"? I wonder whether a permanent record is different from a transcript. Any advice? I told her to verify everything the teacher says with an assistant principal or someone in admin. Anything else?</p>

2

<p>She should make sure she is clear on the schools policy and promise to help her son understand the complexity of academic honesty and help him to not do it again.</p>

3

<p>A letter in writing setting out the "punishment" and the policy with regard to inclusion of the incident in any way to colleges would be in order. Failing that, in my state it is legal for one party to a conversation to record a conversation without the other participant's knowledge. Not that I would suggest such a thing.</p>

4

<p>Our public school has a manual with all of the rules, that each kid and parents have to sign at the beginning of a school year. Does your school have anything like that?</p>

<p>I would ask for a meeting with the principal with my kid, to review this situation, and so that I could make sure that we understood the rules correctly. I'd ask the principal to put the "deal" into a written memo that my kid would sign.</p>

<p>I'd also call the teacher to thank the teacher for bringing this to light, and would ask for a meeting to review my kids' overall performance. If my kid is doing ok, then this meeting would remind the teacher that this kid is usually on the right track. If my kid has been doing anything else, this would be an opportunity for me to get on top of it immediately.</p>

<p>I would avoid any appearance at all of blaming the other kid (it was his idea, my kid was weak...), the teacher (she's picking on my kid), or the school (what's the big deal anyway, it was only 10 points). The posting says that all admit that this was wrong, which is great. I would let the school know that I back them completely, and that Junior is going to be punished severely at home as well as at school. The school may be more interested in working with the family in the future if the staff knows the family takes this seriously and that the parents are trying their best.</p>

<p>While your question related to how to deal with the school and not how to deal with the student, I'd make really, really sure that Junior understood that these are some of the consequences of breaking the rules. While I love and support my kids, they all know that I believe they must learn from the consequences of their own bad decisions. If they're smart enough to make decisions, then they should be smart enough to think out the results of those decisions. Several years ago I was faced with having to take a kid to be interviewed by the police about some minor vandalism. The police told me that the other parents didn't even return the police department's call. Fortunately, the police just lectured my kid since he cooperated with the investigation. My kid was shocked that I wouldn't lie or avoid the police for him, like the other parents. I pointed out that his bad decision hurt and embarrassed not only himself, but his family since I was right there with him in the police station and would be right there with him through anything else that happened. I can tell you that my kid has never gotten into trouble in the years since this experience, and the other kids (who ultimately got away with the vandalism) have since gotten into more trouble...and their parents are still making excuses for them. </p>

<p>While this is a fairly common academic infraction and the school is clearly trying to scare the kid to stop it from happening again, the family can view this as an opportunity to reinforce important values. </p>

<p>And I'd definitely not record anyone without their knowledge. Not only is it illegal in many states, but such a recording would not establish a legal contract and the family would be viewed negatively by any Judge-finder of fact if there was a subsequent legal dispute over actions involving the student.</p>

5

<p>Excellent post! ^^^ I've passed it on.</p>

<p>She can't find her district's policy handbook, but she's looking.</p>

6

<p>neonzeus, your recording experiences are quite different than mine. It is somewhat commonplace where allowed, and it is allowed in all courts I practice in and have practiced in for 28 years. It's especially tasty served right after a big ol' lie by the opponent. (I'll be using one in court "soon" and it will carry the day. ) Whatever you mean by "would not establish a legal contract" well....I'll leave that for you to discuss with one of your trial attorneys. ;)</p>

<p>I do however agree with your basic advice.</p>

7

<p>Waaay OT but if anyone cares to look up where their state stands, it's here "Can</a> We Tape?" although before *I * would tape somebody I'd make darn sure the law was still the same. There are some states that require more than one party consent to a conversation to be recorded, but (according to the link posted, sorry don't have time to vet it) the majority and the feds don't.</p>

<p>Edit: By my count, never a sure thing, and again from that un-vetted but accessible site- it's 38 states who generally allow one-party taping to 12 states that don't. Fed law allows it. Call your friendly neighborhood lawyer to see what the story is in your neck of the woods.</p>

<p>The link is from these folks </p>

<p>
[quote]
Published Winter 2003. © The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, 1101 Wilson Blvd., Suite 1100, Arlington, VA 22209. (703) 807-2100

[/quote]
</p>

8

<p>I am not purporting to give legal advice, as I am not admitted to the bar in California. However, it is my understanding that the person involved lives in California and that recording the conversation would be wholly illegal in California.</p>

<p>Please note: the law of the state in which the OTHER party to the conversation is located at the time of the conversation can matter. It may be perfectly legal to tape the conversation in the state where you live, but be ILLEGAL to tape the conversation where the other party lives. Under the laws of some states which have laws saying that ALL parties to a conversation must consent to the taping, you have committed a felony even if you are not in that state as long as ANY party to that conversation IS in that state. </p>

<p>So, if you do call your friendly local lawyer to ask if you can tape a conversation, MAKE SURE that you tell him where the OTHER PARTY is located.</p>

9

<p>Same thing happened to me back in high school. You don't have to worry for the first offense, it will not effect their chances of getting into universities.</p>

10

<p>This is sad. And serious. And all too common.</p>

<p>My own D, senior in college, was a TA for an upper level immunology course this past fall. she noticed something strange in one paper from a major assignment, googled the text, and found large hunks of the offending paper copied off the net. She asked the prof what to do.</p>

<p>They made an announcement at the next class session to the effect that if anyone had "failed to attribute sources" in their recent assignment, fess up to my D by email. About 1/3 of the class did so. (but not the original perp!, but that is another story....)</p>

11

<p>1/3 of the class! Wow. That was unexpected, wasn't it?</p>

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<p>I was volunteering in my son's classes in public school from K-4. Every teacher made it absolutely clear about this whole issue. We worked with the kids on citing and paraphrasing and the whole deal from kindergarten on--in public school. Who is missing this? I don't blame the kids if the teachers aren't teaching it...but if they are, this is academic dishonesty and theft.</p>

<p>I want to add--not every kid understood this in Kindergarten, but by 4th grade, I believe every kid had it. By HS and college...excuse me.</p>

13

<p>mstee,</p>

<p>D expected the original perp and one or two others. When the purp stayed silent, the prof told her to arrange a meeting with the kid. She did, at a local cafe. When D asked the perp to explain the meaning of certain terms (ones that were copied) the purp burst into tears, realizing she was caught. </p>

<p>Frankly, I think the prof should have handled this himself. It was a tough thing to ask D to do, and she had no experience with this sort of thing. </p>

<p>I do not know what the ultimate outcome was.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon and Jonri properly flagged that the law on secretly taping calls will vary depending on the state you're in. (I've been practicing law for 30+ years, admitted in several states - and it's illegal in all of the states in which I practice). I was offering a parental opinion, not a legal one -- but if I was representing a party that could claim to have been "set up" in a secretly taped call, I bet I could convince the jury either that the tape was suspect or the party who was secretly recording calls didn't deserve the jury's sympathy. Your evidence may be useful if the recording was actually legal in your state, but it could also be problematical. And I do not recommend referencing a 2003 survey, since it may be very out-dated as you pointed out. As Jonri emphasized, before taping a call with anyone these days, check with an attorney or you could be commiting a crime!</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
I want to add--not every kid understood this in Kindergarten, but by 4th grade, I believe every kid had it. By HS and college...excuse me.

[/quote]
My daughter ran into one of her the brother of one of her friends - he is a grad student at the same university where she is a freshman. He was telling her he had to do a group project with three other students and one of them had completely plagiarized his whole part of the paper. Imagine being a grad student and doing that!</p>

16

<p>Well, look at this thread that just started:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/516649-lying-about-personal-experience.html#post1060467420%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/516649-lying-about-personal-experience.html#post1060467420&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

17

<p>I remember being shocked my first time or two on this board lurking and seeing kids talk about how they make stuff up to score well on their SAT essay. For instance, attributing some totally false quote to some famous historian. The kids here made it seem like it was widely done.</p>

18

<p>OMG! I looked at that thread and was appalled. My youngest kid also just told me that cheating is prevalent throughout her high school (Newsweek medalist school), and that most of her friends think nothing of it.</p>

<p>I'm disillusioned. I'm now telling myself that these kids will end up paying for their moral/ethical/educational lapses eventually... I sure hope I'm right, and that the good guys will win out in the end.</p>

19

<p>Just to update: Mom spoke with teacher, who sounded defensive. Probably thought mom was going to yell at her. Teacher said she had wondered on past assignments whether he was cheatiing but had never had the goods to catch him. Mom, Dad and child will be meeting with the dean of students next week just to clarify what happens because of this infraction and what would happen if there's another.</p>

<p>Mom asked teacher to be at that mtg, but she declined. Weird.</p>

20

<p>Before everyone goes ballistic about the SAT thread, please remember that the SAT essay is testing writing ability, not factual information. They don't care if the entire essay is fiction; in fact, they assume to some degree that it will be. Particularly if they're asking some sort of academic question, since kids won't have had the opportunity to study for it. That's why I prefer the ACT type of essay - it simply asks for one's opinion on a topic.</p>

<p>Back to the OP - good luck with the school. This teacher sounds a bit off. You may want to find out what "other assignments" raised red flags for her, and what those flags were. Just in case.</p>