<p>Yes, obviously (or else I wouldn’t have regretted turning down the safeties). I’ve already posted this – I think UCSC would have been a better choice. He was also accepted a lower ranked but larger LAC where the students tend to be more politically engaged than the LAC he chose – that also probably would have been a better option. He later applied unsuccessfully as a transfer to each of those schools.</p>
<p>I think most of us probably agree on the importance of fit–learning environment and peer group are part of fit, too. I think the honors college at a big school can provide a really good fit for a lot of kids who want both the big-college experience and peers who challenge them academically–but as I said upthread, you need to do your research and understand how the honors college actually works at the schools you are interested in–and it’s not enough to learn how the school *says *it works.</p>
<p>What about when there is a smaller difference between the two schools-- say two LACs with the same price sticker, where LAC 1 offers more challenging academics but LAC 2 provides a better social fit?</p>
<p>dontknow, I think it depends on the prospective student. In high school my son was junior class president and then student body president. Social interaction and leadership opportunities are very important to him, as well as being able to be physically active through club sports and outdoor activities. He is extremely bright but he is not what you’d call a true intellectual, at least to the exclusion of all else. He applied to 13 schools and was accepted to 13 schools. He did not apply to any Ivies, but had a mix of highly selective LACs, a middle sized private university, and UCs. In the end he narrowed it down to two LACs with pretty similar social environments. One was “elite” and one was lower down in the rankings, a Fiske guide 5 star and a 4 star. The 5 star turned out to be a BIG financial stretch, he opted happily for the 4 star even though five of the other schools were more highly ranked academically. I had some misgivings, but he did not. He is very happy and growing in many ways. For lots of these kids social fit is so important that academics won’t mean a hill of beans without it.</p>
<p>dontknow - I’d lean towards the social fit. If a kiddo is happy, makes friends, feels good about him/herself that to me - as a parent - would trump academics.</p>
<p>2010 NMF from National Merit Scholarship Corporation. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a></p>
<p>There are 2 tables in this document. The first table is “Colleges and universities enrolling the 2010 entering class of Merit Scholar® awardees” (table 1 - my naming for convenience) and the second table is “Colleges and universities enrolling the 2010 entering class of Achievement Scholar® awardees” (table 2 - my naming).</p>
<p>There is a huge difference between these two tables. For example, in table 1 they have the following:</p>
<p>261 Harvard College
225* University of Oklahoma (188)
215* Washington University in St. Louis (161)
100* Arizona State University (78)
250* University of Southern California (196)
224 Yale University</p>
<p>In table 2 they have:</p>
<p>64 Harvard College
7 University of Oklahoma
22 Washington University in St. Louis
4 Arizona State University
6 University of Southern California
49 Yale University</p>
<p>dontknow, just another thought on your question. I think if you are considering between two SMALL LACs, the social fit becomes more crucial. At a larger college a student may float between groups, trying different social identities. At a smaller school it’s harder to find new groups, so liking the prevailing social atmosphere is really important. Anybody who lurks on CC has read the posts from unhappy kids who went to a school where they felt they just didn’t fit in.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Comparing schools using the mid-50% range and/or average of test scores starts bugging me too. A 2250 SAT could be the upper limit for one guy who cannot give any more in college, while it could be the starting point for another. Also, it’s funny if a 4-11 guy from a group with an average height of 5-10 keeps telling a 7-2 guy from a group with a 5-4 average that his people are taller. I don’t mean just scores.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There are not many people that have firsthand experience to compare 2 kinds of schools. However, I do know a smart kid who went to a honors college free, came out a top student and went on to a top university for graduate studies. That kid had a hard time adjusting to the rigor the first year but eventually pulled it out. Maybe that’s a good experience too.</p>
<p>Our D did choose a lesser ranked, albeit still very highly ranked, public school over some privates because it simply “fit” her better. Many of her friends supported her decision whereas others thought she was crazy and should choose the highest ranked. She is one of those over 2200/straight A kids, but ultimately she thought she’d enjoy the climate of VA, the social element/Greek scene, the great school tradition, and intense school spirit of her current school. Regrets? Not really…the only things she really dislikes are some of the large classes, labs taught by TAs, and grade deflation or enforced curves. She is over that 75% mark (probably top 5-10% if I had to guess), but she is certainly challenged. She came to college with a very strong foundation, but says she has to really, really work to keep all As. Don’t presume that just because your child might be in the top of the incoming class they’ll be bored. I can present arguments where at some schools they might be surrounded by other 2200+ kids and be less challenged academically because of grade inflation that many are infamously known for implementing. I say ALWAYS go for the school your child wants that you can afford.</p>
<p>“There is a huge difference between these two tables.”
your point being ??</p>
<p>These are 2 different programs- Merit Scholar awardees are US students of any color who scored high enough on the PSAT to reach National Merit Finalist status and were then chosen to be awarded scholarships from NMF and / or their colleges.</p>
<p>Achievement Scholar awardees are black students who self identified when registering to take the PSAT. See below:</p>
<p>“National Merit® Scholarship Program
Over 1.5 million students who met program participation
requirements and took the 2008 Preliminary
sat/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (psat/
nmsqt®) entered the competition for recognition
and college scholarships to be awarded to high school
seniors in the spring of 2010.
• 35,525 entrants were named Commended Students
in recognition of their outstanding performance on
the qualifying test and their potential for success in
challenging college studies.
• 16,259 other participants, the highest-scoring entrants
in each state, were designated Semifinalists
and had the opportunity to continue in the
competition for National Merit Scholarship awards
by fulfilling several additional requirements
15,075 of the Semifinalists were notified in February
2010 that they met academic and other requirements
to attain Finalist standing and were being considered
for Merit Scholarship® awards
8,292 Merit Scholar® designees, chosen from the
Finalist group, received Merit Scholarship awards
worth a total of $36.9 million. In addition, 1,359
other outstanding program participants (who were
not Finalists) received Special Scholarships, valued
at $12.2 million. These Special Scholarships are provided
by corporations, company foundations, and
business organizations to complement their Merit
Scholarship awards.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a></p>
<p>“The National Achievement® Scholarship Program is an academic competition established in 1964 to provide recognition for outstanding Black American high school students. Black students may enter both the National Achievement Program and the National Merit® Program by taking the Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (PSAT/NMSQT®) and meeting other published requirements for participation. The two annual programs are conducted concurrently but operated and funded separately. A student’s standing is determined independently in each program. Black American students can qualify for recognition and be honored as Scholars in both the National Merit Program and the National Achievement Program, but can receive only one monetary award from NMSC.”
National Achievement® Scholarship Program
Nearly 170,000 Black American students in more than
12,000 high schools requested consideration in the
2010 National Achievement Program when they took
the 2008 psat/nmsqt and entered the National Merit®
Scholarship Program.
• 3,315 high-scoring participants were referred to
United States colleges and universities for the
purpose of expanding these students’ educational
opportunities.
• 1,716 Semifinalists were named on a regional representation
basis and had the opportunity to advance in
the competition for National Achievement Scholarship
awards by meeting additional requirements.
• 1,383 of the Semifinalists met all the requirements to
progress to the Finalist level of the competition and were
considered for an Achievement Scholarship® award.
• 803 Finalists became Achievement Scholar® designees,
winning scholarships worth over $2.4 million
for college undergraduate study</p>
<p>so the big difference in numbers relates to how many black students registered with NMF beforehand to let them know they were black,
took the PSAT, did well on it, and were accepted and decided to matriculate at the colleges you listed[ perhaps as URM’s? who knows? who cares? ]</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/nasp.php[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/nasp.php</a></p>
<p>last edit to above:
the $$ for National Achievement Scholars comes only from NMF or from corparate sponsors. NO colleges award National Achievement scholarships[ according to NMF] .</p>
<p>"National Achievement® $2500 Scholarships
Every Finalist is considered for one of the 700 National
Achievement $2500 Scholarships offered through the
National Achievement Scholarship Program, an academic
competition for Black American high school students.
These scholarships are awarded on a regional
representation basis. Award winners are selected by an
independent committee of college admission officers
and high school counselors who evaluate information
submitted by Finalists and their schools as part of the
application process. "</p>
<p>“Corporations, foundations, business organizations, and
professional associations underwrite Achievement Scholarship
® awards for Finalists in the National Achievement
Scholarship Program. Most corporate sponsors specify
their awards for Finalists who reside in an area served by
the sponsor, for those who have career plans the grant
wishes to encourage, or for Finalists who are children
of their employees. Sponsors of this year’s Achievement
Scholarship awards are listed on page 35.
These scholarships provide either a single payment of
$2,500 to $5,000 when the Scholar enters college or an
annual stipend that can range from $500 to $10,000
per year for up to four years of undergraduate study.
In 2010, 103 corporate-sponsored Achievement Scholarship
awards worth $700,000 were offered to Finalists.
provided by grants from corporate sponsors.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a></p>
<p>So a hi PSAT scoring black student who made NMF status, and decides to attend a college offering big merit $$ to NMF’s, would probably accept the NMF designation, and thus be listed under column 1. Those who were accepted by and decide to go to an H or Y or other college which does NOT sponsor NMF scholarships $$ , probably would have accepted the NAS designation and the $2500.</p>
<p>
A student doesn’t need to be at an “honors” college at a large university to find academic challenge; the student needs to select challenging courses and a challenging major – and also use various resources to identify which classes those are. I don’t think organic chemistry suddenly becomes a gut course because the university admits some students whose SAT scores are only slightly above average. </p>
<p>An “honors” system may or may not offer a benefit to the student – but it could also make things worse both by creating unrealistic expectations, and because the honors system may actually restrict course choice. Some honors systems also set up one or more freshman honor seminars with the idea of supplying an LAC-like experience, but those courses can actually end up being less challenging to the student than a large lecture course covering difficult material, especially if the student is not interested in the seminar topic or doesn’t resonate with the prof or the other students. </p>
<p>The honors designation can be helpful if it gives a student a perk like priority registration, but looking into school policies (both official and unofficial) as to course selection and enrollment might be more significant. I say “unofficial” because my own experience as an undergrad was that a lot of the “rules” simply weren’t enforced – that is, a class might say that it was reserved only for upperclassmen or required a certain prerequisite, but that there was nothing standing in the way of simply signing up for the class and attending. </p>
<p>I’d also suggest students look at whether tuition is charged on a per-unit basis or whether a student paying full-time tuition is allowed to enroll in as many courses as they want without extra charge. When I was an undergrad, some of the smartest (and in my mind craziest) students would routinely sign up for course loads of 26-30 units - when in theory the maximum for a full time semester was 18. Of course those students were able to graduate earlier or complete dual or triple majors, assuming they were able to successfully manage that sort of courseload.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Depends on the state and the state university systems concerned. If you’re in California…especially at a mid-high UC, you have access to some of the best schools in the nation…whether public or private. </p>
<p>The same cannot be said of all states as my high school classmates found…including one pre-med major who were all frustrated by the unchallenging rigor/pace of classes, less intellectually engaged classmates, and a bureaucracy which won’t allow them to take more advanced courses. What’s more sad was some experienced this even as “honors students”. </p>
<p>Consequently, they had no choice but to transfer to more rigorous elite private colleges. Unfortunately, our state/city university system cannot compare to those of California or other states with flagships which are elite institutions in their own right.</p>
<p>Cobrat, I’m pretty sure that my son’s CSU is no academic powerhouse. (It isn’t ranked as a “national” institution on US News – but it has a 42% 6-year graduation rate and SAT mid-range of 1380-1730) My son was a NM scholar and single-sitting, unprepped SAT score was ~2150 (I don’t remember the exact score).</p>
<p>I’m sure he’s pretty happy, in hindsight, with his choice of school, given the opportunities it offered him. </p>
<p>It’s a matter of attitude, not school. All schools – elites included – have rules and red tape that often stand in the way of a student doing what he or she wants. But some people don’t take “no” for an answer – instead of looking at what they have been told they can’t do or what their school doesn’t offer, they look for ways to get around the rules or to create the challenges that aren’t already there waiting for them. </p>
<p>I didn’t see much difference between my daughter’s elite experience, my son’s CSU experience, or my UC experience in that regard: we all were required to take courses we found boring, had to deal with profs we thought were inept or incompetent, and figure our way around one red tape barrier or another. Every one of us had some sort of independent study or self-created learning experience (with or without getting credit for it). </p>
<p>My son once complained to me about the sparse reading list in one of his CSU classes – he had some very specific ideas about what he thought they ought to be reading. All were well-known, classical works – so I simply asked my son, “what’s stopping you from reading that stuff on your own? All of those titles are available for free on the internet.” My son laughed, and said he was too busy with his job to find the time. </p>
<p>MIT has a web site with 2000 courses available online for free. Did you and your friends go to that resource to supplement the classes you found lacking? If not, why not?</p>
<p>Post #210 -
</p>
<p>I did not state any opinion and conclusion in my last two posts related to NMF. I am still researching the meaning of the distributions. Why the two distributions don’t correlate? It’s fine that you don’t care. But for me, there is something in there that I don’t understand yet and maybe someone else can provide an explanation.</p>
<p>"Why the two distributions don’t correlate?
you need to go to the NMF website Annual report, which I provided a link to above, and read. The 2 distributions are for a larger group of students [ NMF’s] and a smaller subset of similar students who are black [NAS’s]. </p>
<p>the determining factors of how the students are divided into each category are as follows:</p>
<p>The following pertains ONLY to black students who notified NMSF of their race when registering to take the PSAT
A student who made NMF status, who then decides to attend a college offering big merit $$ to NMF’s, would probably accept the NMF designation, instead of the NAS designation, and thus be listed under column 1. A student who matriculates at H or Y or another college which does NOT sponsor NMF scholarships , would probably accept the NAS designation and the $2500 provided by NMSF, as there is no other scholarship awarded from NMSF when attending a college that does not sponsor NMF’s. Those are the figures in list 2.</p>
<p>All other NMFs would be listed in list 1.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I did read and think about the report and I am the one who provided the link about the latest 2010 official report instead of using the older 2008 from a non-public source in post #206. I think I deserve a better credit here.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Your guess is wrong. A NAS can also be NMF. Here is the information about a student that has both titles (again this is in the same report we talk about). He is attending MIT, a college that does not sponsor NMF scholarships.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>From the National Merit web site:</p>
<p>“Black American students can qualify for recognition and be honored as Scholars in both the National Merit Program and the National Achievement Program, but can receive only one monetary award from NMSC.”</p>
<p>How do you really know what the “other factors” that make up a college are really like until you attend?</p>
<p>When you may chose to attend a college based in part on the cost and you chose to attend a school that gives generous merit aid to NMF’s in part because the school is trying to boost it’s profile and academic reputation you may end up somewhere that isn’t the best fit for you.</p>
<p>The problem for a student like my son is if he transfers there will be no more aid. He already has several very nice MA offers with one more I hope to come and if he ends up making the wrong choice it’s going to be a financial hardship on him.</p>
<p>I value the other factors and so does he. He also told me he doesn’t want to be the smartest kid in the class anymore. Please don’t take offense at that-he comes from a very average public HS and him being near the top of his class means more that he is a “Big fish in a little pond” than he is a genius-he certainly is not. However, this thread prompted me to go look at his SAT scores in terms of percentile and I was pretty surprised he was 99th if you take the three parts-most things I have seen rank schools by the Math and CR and I never looked that closely into it. </p>
<p>I am trying to separate this decision from the financial one and it is extremely difficult. </p>
<p>I want him to be at the right school-in every way. I want him to be with other motivated and focused students. I don’t get too concerned about SAT scores because I don’t think they tell the whole picture.</p>
<p>He had an overnight visit at a school and the first thing he told me when he got home was how impressed he was-and it wasn’t the facilities or the professors or the classes he attended-it was of all things the grammar the other students used when he was talking to them! He was so impressed that the students were at that level-of course the school he visited was one he has a minuscule chance of getting into. </p>
<p>I guess this leads me to think the social atmosphere will be very important to him as well as the coursework.</p>
<p>NM finalist are about 15000 students. NM Scholars are about 8000 students (a subset of the 15000). So 7000 Finalist do not get a scholarship of any kind from the NM program.</p>
<p>State U gets 100 NMF’s and give them all a scholarship, and therefore has 100 NMScholars.
LAC gets 100 NMF’s but does not award scholarships, some studens may be scholars (received one of the 2500, $2500 awarded by the NM corp) and some may be scholars (corporate scholarship); but none are converted to “scholars” by getting school scholarships. </p>
<p>It there a list that compares NM Finalists that includes the full 15000?</p>