Academic fit vs. other factors

Parents Forum
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<p>While the majority of my LAC classmates were your traditionally aged 18-22 year old students, there were also some older students…including several parents and some middle aged/seniors going back to college to finish up or start their first bachelors degree. One particularly colorful older classmate was a 50 year old freshman with rich lifetime experiences running a successful business who was dispensing much wisdom about life to me and other traditionally aged students. </p>

<p>Having and learning from non-traditionally aged classmates…especially older ones is not exclusive to larger universities as you seem to imply above. </p>

<p>Moreover, as someone who has taken classes with several older and younger non-traditional students, I’ve also learned that being older does not necessarily confer greater maturity, seriousness of purpose, focus, and/or wisdom. While most older non-traditional students I’ve taken classes at my LAC, Harvard summer session, and at Columbia’s summer session were strong in those areas, there were also quite a few who also fell far too short in those areas. </p>

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<p>Interestingly enough, my high school classmates had the exact opposite experience due to the greater academic challenges and the fact the Profs were treating them and everyone else like adults by expecting them to rise to their higher standards rather than diluting them for the slowest/most unprepared students and micromanaging them as if they were still in high school. </p>

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<p>I was bringing them up to point out the fact that some kids may find their local state/city universities to be extremely unchallenging…even with honors programs if they came from a really rigorous high school and/or are above-average in terms of intelligence. Such kids tend to do best when they are surrounded with classmates who are at/exceed their academic level/capabilities and tend to become quite frustrated and bored when they are the top students…especially if the gap between top and average students at a given institution is great. </p>

<p>If they have any bias…it is that for them…their state/city university system did not work for them because the schools not only failed to focus much attention on their academic needs, but effectively ignored them altogether. If they feel they’re not getting the best education despite exhausting all of their efforts by doing many of the things you suggested(i.e. learn on their own), why shouldn’t they transfer out? </p>

<p>Moreover, why are you tossing in a loaded term like “malcontent” to describe them on account of their perspectives? </p>

<p>Last I checked, we don’t owe unconditional loyalty to the first college we attend if it is not meeting our educational or other needs…and I hope college administrators…especially public institutions do not feel so entitled as to demand as much from their incoming freshman class. </p>

<p>After all, they’re supposed to be providing educational experiences students and/or their parents are free to accept or reject at any point, not authoritarian/totalitarian regimes where one must demonstrate unquestionable loyalty or else.</p>

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<p>calmom–I agree that peers are not always (or ever??) the best source of learning. I attended a teeny LAC, where I took a lot of one-on-one tutorials with my faculty mentor. I learned a ton from him but not all that much from my peers. (I made some great friends and had a blast with them, though. I guess that’s a form of learning. :))</p>

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<p>Memloparkmom,
True, the NM Corporate awards go to the top kids in each state.</p>

<p>At our flagship, if you get one of those and the Distinguished Scholar award, they stack on top of one another. If you have those kind of stats and get a Banneker/Key scholarship, it adds up to a truly free ride – full COA including personal expenses.</p>

<p>That $2500 NM Corp scholarship can be bittersweet. In our case, the school-sponsored NMF award would have been larger, and they would not consider sweetening the award for a student who had already qualified for a NM Corp award. (Carleton did this, at least as of a couple of years ago.)</p>

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<p>But in post #174, you said:</p>

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<p>This chart as well as other charts in later posts only provide the list of the awardees. So, your statement above is not correct, if not misleading.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say “exclusive”. (Unfortunately, that is one more example of the all-or-nothing mindset that I find frustrating).</p>

<p>The balance is different. For example, the average age of students at my son’s CSU was 26. That’s “average” – it means you need a lot of students who are way older than that to balance out the numbers of the 18 year olds. That’s going to result in a very different campus dynamic, in and out of class, than a college where there are only a handful of non-traditional students. </p>

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<p>That’s fine – that is their perspective on their individual experience. They are entitled to to their opinions and it probably does reflect their true, subjective experiences.</p>

<p>But you are generalizing the experiences of a few to a whole. I never said that LAC’s or elite universities are bad or made a comparative judgment (one is better than the other). I said that there are multiple factors to consider, pros and cons of every environment. </p>

<p>But you want to paint with a very broad brush – and my own experience tells me that that is not an accurate perception of reality. That’s not to say that the lower-tier public u is suddenly transformed into a wonderful environment for everyone. </p>

<p>But again… I’d have a lot more respect for someone who was a product or proponent of an elite education if that person seemed capable of expressing a more nuanced view and could acknowledge some of the drawbacks or limitations of their own situation, as well as recognize some of the strengths in other environments. And I can easily get the nuanced view by going to a college review site where students have posted their opinions - you can sing the praises of your alma mater here, but the internet makes it pretty easy to find a dissenting voice. </p>

<p>I’d also note that you have posted your school elsewhere and you did not attend what I would consider to be a small LAC. At least from your post, you attended a mid-size to large LAC (2800 students) – so you really can’t know what my son’s experience was like at a LAC with only 1200 students— and I have made it very clear in my posts to distinguish the large from the small LAC’s. So maybe your school was a more optimal size for a LAC – for example, maybe you wouldn’t have bumped against the limits in terms of course offerings and spaces in classes that my son was frustrated by. </p>

<p>It comes back to the point if this thread. The OP asked whether her son could do well at a college where his stats are on the high end. It looks like that question comes up because the family is concerned about finances and looking at private colleges that may give the son merit aid – and of course, to get that kind of aid, a student has to be on the upper end of the applicant pool. </p>

<p>The answer to the OP’s question is clearly yes, but it depends on the kid and the school. Given the high cost of college, there are lots of top-end students who opt for the money when it is offered. (That’s the whole point of looking at those National Merit numbers – it tells you where there are a healthy number of smart kids taking schools up on generous aid offers). In fact, at a certain point, depending on family finances, it looks like turning down the money in favor of an elite school could be a very stupid thing to do — so I’m thinking that if the choice is taking on a huge amount of debt or accepting a generous scholarship to attend a less well ranked college, then by definition the smarter students are the ones attending the merit-money schools.</p>

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<p>^ coolweather, the chart I posted a long time ago lists where the 8500 NM Scholars [ scholarship winners] matriculated, including those at the Ivy’s and at all other colleges. so how is my statement incorrect or misleading?? There ARE equally smart kids outside the Ivy League! USC DOES have more NM Scholarship winners than Yale. What is confusing to you?
I think you are equating NM Finalists with NM Scholars-
So here is an example that hopefully will help you see the difference between the 15000 NM Finalists and the 8000 NM scholars -
in the Miss America beauty pageant, after all other contestants have been eliminated, the last 3 girls are called the “finalists” . But there is only 1 Miss America eventually chosen- 1 “scholarship” winner.
Those students who aren’t awarded NM Scholarships can still consider themselves NMF’s, but because they did not fall into 1 of the 3 categories already mentioned above, they weren’t awarded scholarships.</p>

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<p>^ The title of the chart is “Colleges and universities enrolling the 2010 entering class of Merit Scholar® awardees”. It’s was 2008 in your original post but then later the 2010 chart was introduced. Total 8000 awardees in 2008 and 8292 awardees in 2010.</p>

<p>It’s plain English and crystal clear.</p>

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<p>No, the data shown was for National Merit Scholars and not National Merit Finalists.
All National Merit Finalists that attend elite colleges don’t (DO NOT) get any scholarship but if the same students have joined the like of USC or any state colleges would have received the merit scholarship.</p>

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<p>No, it’s not a homogenous group as it’s state based. Most of the lower cut off state NMF didn’t get into elite colleges so they attend that state flagship and so automatically become a National Merit Scholar. Most of the high cut off state like California, MA, NY, NJ NMF attend elite colleges there by leaving minimal to state flagships.</p>

<p>USC doesn’t have more NMF but do have more National Merit Scholars because every NMF who join USC automatically get’s scholarship while Yale doesn’t provide any scholarship and only those NMF at Yale who either gets the corporate scholarship or other private scholarship gets the National Merit Scholar status. All the NMF that attends Yale would have received scholarship at USC making them National Merit Scholar. But all the non 1, 2, 3 contender at a Beauty pageant wouldn’t have become a winner by representing another state. So the Analogy is wrong too.</p>

<p>So the conclusion is totally WRONG.</p>

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<p>Now I know why SAT1 reading was changed to exclude analogies. It certainly is not everyone’s cup of tea.</p>

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<p>No, that is not how it works. </p>

<p>The public schools with high NM enrollment, as well as some lesser ranked privates, actively recruit out-of-state students with generous merit offers. Things might have changed somewhat, but with my son it was generally a full ride + stipend + perks like preferred course registration. MANY students from other states take that offer, because it is the best option they have financially. So you are definitely going to find many California students headed off toward Arizona State & Barrett Honor’s College. Barrett has 25% out of state enrollment, and the out-of-state numbers are larger than the National Merit numbers --and there’s no particular incentive for an out-of-stater to come to ASU but for the money – so I think it’s a pretty good bet that MOST of 150 NMF’s that come in every year are out of staters happy to to accept their generous financial offer-- and they are very actively recruiting from other states. See [Barrett</a>, The Honors College Barrett Facts and Figures](<a href=“http://barretthonors.asu.edu/about/facts/]Barrett”>http://barretthonors.asu.edu/about/facts/)</p>

<p>MOST NM finalists are NOT rich and more likely than not they come from middle class families that do not qualify for enough need based aid to make an Ivy affordable, and earn too much money to get much need-based aid at their instate public. (And the Ivies couldn’t care less about NM status, so its not a tip factor – unless the kid has a lot more going for him, he’s not going to get into the super-elites in any case). </p>

<p>I think one reason that the very top schools like Harvard and Stanford adopted extremely generous aid policies, going beyond what families would get based on FAFSA eligibility, is that they were losing far too many students in that middle income range as college costs soared – it just isn’t feasible for most families to pay $25K+ annually for their kid’s college, especially if they have younger kids coming up to worry about.</p>

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<p>calmom that is our EXACT situation!</p>

<p>Why this has turned into a discussion of what qualifies as a NM Scholar is beyond me-can you maybe take that to another thread.</p>

<p>I do not believe that being a NMF makes someone more intelligent or a better student than someone who is not. Do you know how many people have no idea that a PSAT is anything other than a practice test? The ones who do know I would imagine have a far better chance to do well on the test because they prepare for it. I found out after the fact but we were fortunate enough to have our son do well enough to make the first cut by a single question! If he missed the cut would he be any less intelligent? No he would not. In fact, his SAT scores were far higher than his PSAT would have predicted-why? Maybe because he prepared-not much but at least more than he did for the PSAT.</p>

<p>I am trying to help him find a place where he can attend a school that meets his academic needs and his social ones as well-without him and us going broke in the process.</p>

<p>There is one school he is actively considering that gives full tuition to NMF-but since he hasn’t been accepted yet I won’t get into the specifics. I think this place might work for him-only he can figure out if it will. I will tell you I also agree that it is a sign of at least financial intelligence if he decides to take a better financial offer at a school that can work for him rather than his “dream” school. It will save him a whole lot of debt.</p>

<p>We also have a younger child to think about.</p>

<p>So maybe we could get some feedback on here about this choice-especially from students who have made it one way or the other.</p>

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<p>Well said, Pepper. Good luck to your S! I like the expression “financial intelligence.”</p>

<p>I think many of us agree that this is a personal decision - what a kid needs socially, academically AND financially - but as parents we are wondering how to assess where our kid fits on the “fish” spectrum. I change my mind almost daily about whether my D would be better off as a big fish or small - or which kind of pond is best for her. Somehow we’re trying to find a balance. Some of this is hypothetical, because she may yet be rejected by all of the “big ponds,” but even if that happens, this discussion could be very helpful if her only choices are where she is in the upper percentile. I greatly appreciate having some perspective to help me prepare for all of the possibilities.</p>

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<p>Pepper03–I think it totally depends on your major and your situation. If the school/major program work for you, then take the money and enjoy your college years!</p>

<p>Our child #4 took the full ride and he seems to be happy at the large state school as a CS major.</p>

<p>Our other kids did not take the free (or almost free) rides they could have gotten but they did end up in the best places for them, with some good scholarships. Our D, especially, wanted a really good Judaic studies program and only JTS in NY (joint degree program with Columbia) was good enough for her. She was a Fellow there (full tuition at JTS at least!) which proved she made the right choice. At the State school she would have run out of challenging courses to take in Hebrew, for instance, and not had the benefit of being around all those rabbinic students and the rich Jewish life of NYC.</p>

<p>So the answer is…it depends.</p>

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<p>There is no way to co-relate number of OOS students with number of NMF. What about NMF from Arizona. There are more chances for NMF from Arizona attend colleges in Arizona than NMF from California leaving the affordable UCs for lower performing Arizona’s colleges.</p>

<p>Students going to OOS public from California are most likely to be non NMF than NMF because most NMF from CA will get into top UCs or top elite colleges.</p>

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<p>Statistics are not on your side in this case also. It’s proven fact that PSAT score is very closely related to family income and there is disproportionately percentage of middle/upper income students scoring high on PSAT then lower/middle income students.</p>

<p>The linkage is less obvious in SAT1 because PSAT is taken in the fall of junior year where most of lower/middle students are not that well prepared to begin with.</p>

<p>To give you an example in a high cutoff state CA DD private prep had 30% of class as NMF with another 25% as commended. On the other hand the lowest performing high school had less than 1% NMF and in many case didn’t have any student at all.</p>

<p>So most of the students that go OOS public from CA are those who don’t get into UCs and actually are the lower performing students who would have to go to CSU or CC and instead go to Arizona or other states public to get a 4 year college experience.</p>

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<p>“Why this has turned into a discussion of what qualifies as a NM Scholar is beyond me-can you maybe take that to another thread.”
I hit the F key instead of the S Key once when I typed NMF instead of NMS , and some posters jumped on my error. It’s obvious that the charts lists NMS’s.
I admit I’m not the most accurate typist, but sheesh…</p>

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<p>“USC doesn’t have more NMF”
Since there is no information provided by NMSF about where the finalists who DON’T make it to Scholar status actually DO matriculate[ which is one of the questions that coolweather was asking up thread], this statement is based on your own assumptions, nothing more.</p>

<p>"Students going to OOS public from California are most likely to be non NMF "
More speculation and assumptions. Where is the data for this? And why would a student from Calif who was NOT a NMF pay thousands of dollars more per year to attend an OOS public school than stay instate and go to a UC ? The UC’s admit hundreds of thousands of students from Calif each year- most of them are not NMF’s…</p>

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<p>“I do not believe that being a NMF makes someone more intelligent or a better student than someone who is not. Do you know how many people have no idea that a PSAT is anything other than a practice test? The ones who do know I would imagine have a far better chance to do well on the test because they prepare for it. I found out after the fact but we were fortunate enough to have our son do well enough to make the first cut by a single question! If he missed the cut would he be any less intelligent? No he would not. In fact, his SAT scores were far higher than his PSAT would have predicted-why? Maybe because he prepared-not much but at least more than he did for the PSAT.”</p>

<p>This was the experience with our son. We had no idea when he took the PSAT that it should be treated as anything but a practice test. He did pretty well, but below National Merit level. Then he scored very well on the SAT, had good college options and now attends a top-10 LAC that meets full-need, so the NMF stuff didn’t matter in the end. Now that we know, though, you can bet we’ll take a different approach with our daughter to give her the most options.</p>

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<p>What I’ve seen is students who have a choice between UA and/or ASU and the non-rahrah UCs (meaning, anything except UCLA and Cal. Yes, Davis has football but it’s just not the same). Those students are choosing to go OOS instead of to a UC because they want a more big state school rah-rah environment.</p>

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<p>“I will tell you I also agree that it is a sign of at least financial intelligence if he decides to take a better financial offer at a school that can work for him rather than his “dream” school. It will save him a whole lot of debt.”
I’m in total agreement. My son’s “FI” was one of the reasons he decided to accept a full tuition scholarship at a big U instead of go to one the Ivy’s he got into. And after a few bumps,it has turned out just fine for him. He has been accepted into a fully “dream” PHD program at Cal Tech. So no tuition $$ spent on either UG or Grad school! what a relief!</p>

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<p>No, I abide by my statement and it can be proven if Yale collects NMSF status of it’s students.</p>

<p>The only reason to refute your data is to point out the anamoly that large NMS doesn’t necessarily means a better cohort because there will be more NMS at non elite college than at elite college because of the fact that elite colleges don’t extend scholarships.</p>