<p>There may not be a larger cohort of NMS at Ivies. Some students don’t bother with the paperwork for NMS if they intend to go to Ivies since they get no benefit and it is more work.</p>
<p>Erin’s Dad, really? We’re talking about in essence writing one essay (scavenged from college app essays) to advance from semifinalist to finalist. That has to be done before ED/EA notifications. Our Ivy-aspiring student can’t know for sure if they are headed to their first choice no-NM-scholarships-offered school. They’d still have a shot at $2k from NM itself. If they’re Ivy-aspiring and NMSFs, it’s a reasonable bet that they’re hard-working and are happy to snag honors–even those without a lot of benefits. Or, they attend a school where the administration is happy to advertise the number of NMFs in the graduating class. Or their parents are going to noodge them to get the darn essay written.</p>
<p>^That’s advancing from semifinalist to finalist, not finalist to scholar. Plenty of finalists have all the scores and the grades, but because they chose to attend non-scholarship awarding colleges like the Ivies and because they live in more competitive states, they were never able to advance to the Scholar status. And the lists in previous posts all show the number of Scholars, which is what POIH has been trying to point out.</p>
<p>“they chose to attend non-scholarship awarding colleges like the Ivies”
HUH? There are lots of NM Scholars at the Ivys + MIT+ S! Over 1200 of them according to NMSF in 2010! Look at the list!</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a></p>
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<p>The UC’s don’t give any money to NMF, and even the little merit money they do give has a need component. So the choice for an upper middle class family may be between shouldering $25K+ annual COA for in-state, or a free ride at ASU or another out-of-state college. Also, the UC’s don’t really have anything that is the equivalent (at least in marketing) of Barrett Honors, and state-wide financial cuts means that things just keep getting worse and worse – classes and sometimes whole departments being cut. So more and more the UC-prospect is worried about whether they will be able to get the classes they want and be able to graduate on time.</p>
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Yes, but most of those middle/upper income families are NOT in the top 2% of income earners who can actually afford to pay $30K-$60K for annual tuition. You are right that probably very few NMF’s come from the ranks of the very poor, who will have 0 EFC, and qualify for Pell grants and generous financial aid at most privates. Most are probably in the $75K-$130K range, where they will find that most private colleges will cost them at least as much as the in-state publics, and the cost of both have edged beyond what they can afford. </p>
<p>You are also mistaken about the ability of these kids to get into the most selective elite colleges, because the NMF is merely a test score – a small percentage of these kids are competitive for Ivy League, but the vast majority are simply smart, good students who have had a fairly typical trajectory through high school – in other words, they will probably get into just about any college that accepts 35% or more of its applicants, but they don’t have the wow factors that are going to get them into the schools that accept less than 10% of their applicants – and at best the schools in between (10%-35% acceptance rate) are matches for them, not safeties.</p>
<p>Hi menloparkmom and everyone on this forum. This is my first post on CC. I have read all the posts on this subject and with each one has come a new sense of peace on this subject. Of course, in one hour, I will beat it to death again, but hey. My son is off to college in the fall…to the college of his choice, a big U in our state. He loves it (first campus he visited, mind you). He is enrolled in the Honors College there. As long as he keeps his GPA above a 3.2, his education is paid in full with two different scholarships and an extra $2,000 per year in his pocket , so far…(still waiting to hear from some other scholarships ). So, the “problem” is really mine.
He has his plan and it’s in motion. He has been accepted to his first choice school, and it’s paid in full and he’s psyched about going there. I think he’s selling himself short. He’s one of the top graduating students in his class. His GPA and SAT/ACT scores are high enough to be considered for all the ivy league schools. He talked about going to one of them when he was in his Junior year, then all of a sudden, he announces that he wants to stay in our home state! I have no idea where that came from. He is qualified to go to a much more prestigious school than this big U in our state. It’s not even the top ranked U in our state! He was accepted to the top ranked U in our state and does not want to go there. He didn’t like the campus when we paid a visit. He plans to attend grad school for his Masters/PhD at one of the ivy leagues, but wants to stay in state and debt free for undergrad. </p>
<pre><code> All the college decisions are now coming in and some of his classmates of equal academic ranking have been accepted and are going to attend ivy league schools. My son says it’s a pride thing with me…bragging rights… and he doesn’t care about the whole ivy league thing for undergrad and be tens of thousands of dollars in debt when he graduates. I’ll admit…he’s not altogether wrong. He’s been at the top of his class since kindergarten (gifted/awards/etc.). Teachers, counselors, other parents have always made comments through the years about him going to some prestigious college and being something impressive. I know he’ll succeed regardless of the undergrad college he chooses because he’s motivated and intelligent, but I guess I’m just …shallow.
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<p>Yeah, but there would’ve been more if those Ivies themselves actually give out merit money to finalists :(! </p>
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<p>I see. Since this thread focuses on undergraduate education and you seemed so confident that you won’t ever want to send your kids to private colleges like Harvard because they’re not at all worth the money, I mistakenly assumed that you and your husband have had some firsthand experience with Harvard undergrad education at least!</p>
<p>Sorry for misunderstanding.</p>
<p>“My son says it’s a pride thing with me…bragging rights… and he doesn’t care about the whole ivy league thing for undergrad and be tens of thousands of dollars in debt when he graduates.”
He’s right! Your son sounds very much like mine.Grounded and smart. DS went to elite top notch private schools his whole life, and in HS it seemed that almost every senior, and many of their parents, could only talk about getting their children into the highest ranked colleges[ and many did get in, including our DS]. And just so you know, it took me a REALLY long time to relax and be grateful that he made the choice he did [ that became a lot easier in 2008 when financially, the world looked like it would end] .
“I know he’ll succeed regardless of the undergrad college he chooses because he’s motivated and intelligent”. And he will! Trust me, in 4 years both you and he will be glad he made the choice he did.</p>
<p>“Yeah, but there would’ve been more if those Ivies themselves actually give out merit money to finalists”
Maybe, maybe not. A student had to be admitted first. And lets not forget that most of “those Ivys” have the more generous FA programs than ANY colleges in the world. Money is Money. Regardless of whether it is called a Merit Scholarship, Athletic Scholarship or a Grant.</p>
<p>^True. In any case, I was trying to back up POIH on how the number of NMS is a faulty means of measuring the academic quality of a student body, and that had the Ivies handed out NM scholarships of their own, they could’ve had a larger number of Scholars.</p>
<p>PITAmom, your son will miss some of the subtle benefits and joys of attending an elite college, but in the end, someone so motivated and responsible will be able to make up for all of that by seeking out opportunities on his own wherever he is. It seems like there is indeed a “pride” thing with you like your son said, and you sound a little bitter about losing the “bragging rights”------in turn your son seems much more mature and admirable ;).</p>
<p>Re #251
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<p>Simply because someone posted NMS enrollment statistics in an effort to demonstrate that many lesser-ranked colleges had a strong cohort of smart students, to refute the idea that a kid with high stats would necessarily be bored or under-challenged if attending a safety or a match school where stats put the kid on the high end. </p>
<p>Pepper03, my son was in a very similar situation as yours. He did not even bother to take the PSAT when offered in 10th grade, there was no prep in 11th grade – it never even occurred to me to think about what his score might be – and he went in cold and scored exactly at the cutoff. My son had a very strong desire to attend a small LAC – he wanted a cozy academic environment where the teachers all knew his name – and the schools that were very generous with NMF money were all large-school environments, so in our case it didn’t make sense to follow the money. It’s not a bargain to get something free if it isn’t what you want in the first place. (He did end up getting a college-sponsored regular NMF award at the LAC he attended, but $2000 annually was a teensy drop in the bucket for that college’s costs – it helped, of course, but was not a factor in the decision to attend, in part because the school did not offer the award until after he had already accepted his spot).</p>
<p>So it really comes down to what your kid is looking for in a college environment and in terms of major, and also how important the social fit factors are. Some kids are going to be happy just about anywhere, others really have to visit and get a sense of whether they are going to be comfortable in a particular school environment. </p>
<p>But it’s a big mistake to assume that the big school environment will be a poor social fit because the other kids have weaker test scores! For my son, the east coast LAC turned out to be a a horrible social fit – there was a west coast / east coast culture clash and there was a rich / not rich culture clash. (No matter how you look at it, the private elites will have a huge cohort of students from extremely wealthy backgrounds – half or more of the students will be full pay, and no one other than wealthy families can afford to pay full freight these days)</p>
<p>Anyway, as to social fit, you might want to look at who your son’s current friends are. Does he just hang out with the top academic kids in his high school – the ones who are in the AP classes with him? Or does he have a more diverse group of friends or activities? </p>
<p>My son actually did worry about whether social fit would be good at a college where everyone had very high test scores, because when he compared test results with other students, he discovered that all of the most “interesting” kids had much lower scores. (I think there’s something to this, actually – there is a study that just came out that shows that people with ADHD are more creative thinkers, and other studies that show that that anywhere from 40-60% of the most successful entrepreneurs report having struggled in school or having diagnosed learning disabilities at a young age, so it may be that people who are inherently creative, independent thinkers are less likely to have stellar academic records or score all that well on standardized tests). </p>
<p>My son also went to a high school that was very diverse ethnically, and he also noted a very clear correlation among his classmates of ethnicity and and test score – one that is pretty easily documented elsewhere. (His smart African American and hispanic friends didn’t do nearly as well as the very small cohort of white kids at his school on the test, even though many of those kids were in his AP classes and clearly strong & intelligent students). </p>
<p>So my kid worried that if he opted for a school where students were selected based on high SAT scores, he would be surrounded by a lot of dull students. Not “dull” in the sense of lacking intelligence, but “dull” in the sense of being boring. Obviously that is a stereotype in itself, probably misplaced, but it led my kid to look for a more artsy/creative environment in a school.</p>
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<p>Everything is in here:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a></p>
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<p>6783 NMFs (15075 - 8292) were not accounted anywhere.</p>
<p>Parents and students have the choice to decide college. However we should let facts be facts so that everyone can see and make the decision accordingly to the situation of each family.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove, how else would you explain why there are more NMFs at OU than at Harvard?<br>
<a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a> 250 at USC, 225 at OU, 224 at Harvard. (and yes, it does work to offer merit aid to those students)</p>
<p>I KNOW of some students who didn’t bother filling out the paperwork because they would only attend an Ivy.</p>
<p>“I know he’ll succeed regardless of the undergrad college he chooses because he’s motivated and intelligent”. And since his plan IS to go on to a top notch Grad school program, you should remember that on his CV, the Graduate degree AND where it was earned is the one that’s the most important and will give him the credibility he deserves. For students like your son and mine, the UG years are part of the path to the goal, they are NOT the Goal itself.
DS is on the way to Cal Tech next year to begin his PHD. Not bad…</p>
<p>menlo my point was that I don’t see why a thread to discuss academic fit v. other factors has turned into a discussion on who qualifies for NMF v. NMS and how that relates to this topic. If I came off snarky I apologize. :)</p>
<p>^threads on CC always digress after a couple of pages :).</p>
<p>Erin’s Dad, where are you finding the information about the number of NMFs?</p>
<p>“6783 NMFs (15075 - 8292) were not accounted anywhere.”
Perhaps the qualifying standards to actually be awarded a scholarship are higher than we know. After all, this statement from NMSF
“they have become National Merit Program Finalists and are being considered for Merit
Scholarship awards.”
does not say that Finalists WILL receive Merit Scholarship awards, only that they are being considered for them.
What is it you want NMSF to do ? Seriously? State that 6783 NMSF did NOT qualify for Merit Scholarships?
There is probably only so much scholarship money at NMSF and at their sponsoring colleges or organizations to spread around…</p>
<p>"if I came off snarky I apologize. "
no problem…</p>
<p>calmom did a very good job of explaining why NMF’s became a “hot” button </p>
<p>“Simply because someone posted NMS enrollment statistics in an effort to demonstrate that many lesser-ranked colleges had a strong cohort of smart students, to refute the idea that a kid with high stats would necessarily be bored or under-challenged if attending a safety or a match school where stats put the kid on the high end.”</p>
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<p>PITAMom – my daughter did attend an elite school, and graduated at the top of her class. But she is NOT happy with the debt she is carrying – she says she has more loans to pay off than any of her friends, even though she has ONLY subsidized Stafford loans (about $18,000 total) – and I still have PLUS loans to pay off, as well as having exhausted my personal savings sending her to school. On my end I think its worth it – after all, now that she has graduated and is supporting herself, it’s pretty easy for me to make the loan payments – but money is very tight for her, and grad school is at least 2-3 years away, and of course dependent on her finding a funded program. </p>
<p>My son ended up graduating almost debt free – which is a good thing, because 2 years down the line he is married with a baby. I can’t imagine how difficult life would be for him now if he was carrying thousands of dollars of debt.</p>
<p>The money thing really is more important than the college choice, if attending a college entails taking on a large amount of debt. The kid will move off campus immediately after he graduates, but the debt will stay. So yes - it can be disappointing looking at your 18 year old at big state U when your friends are boasting about Yale – but 6 years down the line, when your kid is in grad school… you might have a very different view. </p>
<p>The people who succeed the most in this world are those who have a long view. That’s good for your son, who at age 17 is smart enough to look at what his financial picture will be at age 22. And he’s going to find plenty of other kids who are that kind of smart at his big state U.</p>
<p>"Erin’s Dad, where are you finding the information about the number of NMFs?’
Its on pages 36-38.</p>