<p>It is an Outstanding Brigade!</p>
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<p>You could not be more correct. I do not think that many of the posters on this forum realize that the most important part of leading for a JO is the ability to follow. Be they surface, aviation, or submarines, they, in their commands for the first 15 or so years they are in the Navy, will be following and implementing the ideas and views of their commander. Their command will take on the personality of that Commander. He will have specific, and often unique, views and ideas. Their primary job will be to support him. One of the primary advantages of the four year leadership lab known as USNA is that midshipmen obtain a full year's experience in learning how to do nothing but follow. As you stated, ADM Fowler has failed. He assumed that the Brigade had learned this lesson. They didn't. They do not know how to follow. They have only been exposed to a very unique town hall version of leadership which will prove disasterous in most military situations. It is really unfortunate that many think this is the only way. Some day they will realize the value of the totally opposite view which they are now obtaining.</p>
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<p>Yes, there's a lot of that going around, people who think their ideas and opinions are the only correct ones.</p>
<p>Mirror anyone? :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>Mirror anyone?
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<p>I think that the only personal opinion that I have stated on this forum in recent history has been my idea of a perfect class ring. In all else, I have been merely supporting the policies of the new Supt and presenting my interpretion of them. You have absolutely no idea what my peronal opinions are.</p>
<p>One of the few benefits that comes from age is the fact that you finally begin to appreciate how much you don’t know. It’s both a humbling and in many ways liberating experience; you realize you don’t have all the answers while at the same time you finally understand you can still be successful without them. You also gain an appreciation for the fact that things or situations are rarely what they appear to be at first glance, and that the notion that a situation, particularly one that involve people and human nature can ever be black and white or in this example, that blame or the way events unfold starts and stops with only one side. </p>
<p>69’ I don’t believe I stated in my comments that the Brigade and/or Supt has failed; what I believe I said was “If the Brigade is failing (in your opinion) then the Supt is failing”. What is remarkable is how you once again bring in that observation; which may or may not be accurate on either count, back to this perceived failure of the Brigade without assigning any responsibility outside of them. </p>
<p>You go on to assert “He assumed that the Brigade had learned this lesson. They didn't. They do not know how to follow.” In other words, your perceived failure to adequately embrace the chances proposed by this new administration is entirely the fault of the Brigade. You make no mention of a failure of leadership, the potential of which has to be considered, assuming you don’t have a specific agenda to advance in attacking the Brigade.</p>
<p>Given your assessment of the failure of the Brigade, could you please offer us some enlightenment on how you would inform the CNO of this situation assuming you were in Admin Fowler’s shoes? Would you preface your comments with “it’s all Uncle Rodney’s fault”? “He left me with a bunch of kids that don’t know how to follow orders”. “I told them what I wanted and they are just not listening to me”. You know I’d actually pay good money to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. </p>
<p>In the end this isn’t about what we think about the situation, or what is really happening down there. I really doubt any of us can possible know much at all beyond the information we gather from speaking to a select few. Unfortunately this has become a discussion based solely on your attempt to frame this situation in negative terms, as in the responsibility for all that is wrong down there lies in the fault of the brigade. If you are truly interested in supporting the changes of the new Supt. I can think of no better way than through an expression of encouragement for the Brigade, and yes along with any appropriate criticism mixed in as needed. </p>
<p>I sincerely doubt there are many people associated with the Academy and on this site that do not want to see it’s continued success under every Superintendent, including this one. Some of the changes underway may have been overdue and necessary, some I still don’t understand. My son called me to say he was disappointed they dropped Jiu-Jitsu, when he was just getting into it. He’s been into martial arts for sometime and wanted to expand his training…you know so he could be a better part of that Crucible for Warriors thing. </p>
<p>I have no problem with the decision to restrict weekday liberty, keep them on the yard; I have a big problem with how they handled the “food situation”. I’m sorry but whether it was a minor or major screw up, I have no respect for officers that effectively and publicly blame the men/women under their command for a situation; even if it was their fault. With rank comes privileges, pay and responsibility; you take the heat in the open and then behind closed doors you let your subordinates know that didn’t do the job you expected of them. Right or wrong it would not surprise me in the least to find out some of the morale and respect issues that are likely related to your perception on the Brigade have their roots in the food debacle and the embarrassingly amateurish manner in which it was handled along with the blame game they played. </p>
<p>To summarize my feeling about the changes underway are mixed, as time goes on it may become more clear; what is working and what it not. I can only hope Admiral Fowler has an open mind and doesn’t think as you do when it comes to his assessment of the Brigade. If he does feel as you do, then he will most certainly fail. There is absolutely nothing wrong with setting high standards for the people under you so long as you have the same expectations for yourself and understand that you share the responsibility for your success.</p>
<p>^^^rjrzoom57,
You really did a brilliant job expressing the sentiments of many parents on this forum. Thank you for your efforts.</p>
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What is remarkable is how you once again bring in that observation; which may or may not be accurate on either count, back to this perceived failure of the Brigade without assigning any responsibility outside of them……………………………………………You make no mention of a failure of leadership, the potential of which has to be considered, assuming you don’t have a specific agenda to advance in attacking the Brigade.
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<p>When a General issues the command to his brigade to “charge”, they better damn well charge. The military is about obeying orders. It is not about discussing them with your parents or on an internet forum and then choosing to pick and choose, ignoring that which you do not like. Have you ever thought that perhaps ADM Fowler issued orders without explanation because of the fact that he felt that there was too much second guessing and quibbling over legitimate orders so he chose not to explain them.</p>
<p>The Brigade’s failure is not permanent. Eventually, and many probably already have, once they come around and support the present administration that perhaps their “extra liberty” chants after football victories will bear fruit.</p>
<p>Like some of my 9th graders, they will eventually realize that the Supt has a lot more control of their life, than they, his. And life will be better for both when they do.</p>
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Given your assessment of the failure of the Brigade, could you please offer us some enlightenment on how you would inform the CNO of this situation assuming you were in Admin Fowler’s shoes? You know I’d actually pay good money to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.
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<p>You would probably be a very bored fly. I assume the CNO ordered this and both he and the Supt would have been aware of some resistance. The real leadership will commence in that all will eventually see this as a valuable positive learning experience. It is a temporary situation. The Brigade WILL come around to the Supts way of thinking. </p>
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Unfortunately this has become a discussion based solely on your attempt to frame this situation in negative terms, as in the responsibility for all that is wrong down there lies in the fault of the brigade. If you are truly interested in supporting the changes of the new Supt. I can think of no better way than through an expression of encouragement for the Brigade, and yes along with any appropriate criticism mixed in as needed.
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<p>I am going to throw this one right back at you. I have portrayed a very positive reason to support the Supt. If you want to support the Brigade, I suggest you also support the Supt. </p>
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[quote]
I have a big problem with how they handled the “food situation”. I’m sorry but whether it was a minor or major screw up, I have no respect for officers that effectively and publicly blame the men/women under their command for a situation; even if it was their fault. With rank comes privileges, pay and responsibility; you take the heat in the open and then behind closed doors you let your subordinates know that didn’t do the job you expected of them. Right or wrong it would not surprise me in the least to find out some of the morale and respect issues that are likely related to your perception on the Brigade have their roots in the food debacle and the embarrassingly amateurish manner in which it was handled along with the blame game they played.
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<p>The food situation has played itself out. There was a food shortage for one meal and one meal only. Everything else was an exaggeration. Maybe a few growing pains and construction ills. The Commandant was quite magnanimous in her “blame” . She merely mentioned that the Brigade might be unaware of procedures which have probably been in effect for over a 100 years, both she and they knowing full well that they did not want the system to work.</p>
<p>Do you have respect for those who sabotage a procedure for selfish and childish reasons? My lack of respect goes the other way. The food was there. The midshipmen chose not to eat it and, instead, made unfound accusations.</p>
<p>"There was a food shortage for one meal and one meal only. Everything else was an exaggeration"</p>
<p>I don't think you have a clue. Talk to the mids that are living it daily. You would have a different opinion than what you are writing. Believe me.</p>
<p>WHEN WILL YOU ALL LEARN THAT SOME PEOPLE DO NOT CARE ONE BIT ABOUT THE TRUTH. Some people have nothing better to do all day than to sit around and type into their computer anything that disagreeable to what was said immediately before, regardless of the truth.
You cannot win an argument with somebody who does not care about the truth!</p>
<p>USNA69 said: "When a General issues the command to his brigade to “charge”, they better damn well charge. The military is about obeying orders...."</p>
<p>USNA69 I will agree with you on this one except for a couple of stipulations. Usually in combat when the command of "charge" or "execute" is given, the field commanders, whether ships, ground troops or squadrons have been briefed in advance and at the same time briefed the women and men in their command on the action that is about to be undertaken. Their is feedback requested from operations, logistics, intel, etc to ensure that the requirements to ensure a successful mission have been met. Following the discussions, operation orders are issued and at "zero hour" action is commenced. I understand that not all situations on the ground allow for this type of planning. But in this instance, and what I have read and heard (from the Brigade), the people (Brigade chain of command) that were expected to carry out the action were not informed of the plan until "zero hour." I do not think you can find any leadership book, concept of operations doctrine, etc which would say that is the way to conduct a successful operation. However, it the Brigade Chain of Command was involved in the planning, then there should be no more comments from the parents et al.</p>
<p>One last note, the food situation did last for more than one meal. There is now plenty of food on the table, but some do not care for it. My mid said there was plenty of fish last night, but not everyone ate the lemon peppered cod. He thought it was good. He did mention they replaced the Frosted Flakes with some healthy cereal.</p>
<p>Is COD the only fish available on the East Coast? What fish is served in the Officers' Club?</p>
<p>Cod is a great and nutritious fish. What is served in the O'Club is not relevent, and should not even be part of the formula. If fish is on the menu in the O'Club it will probably cost about $25 for dinner. The Academy gets less than $7 per mid per day for food service.</p>
<p>Name a cheaper fish than COD.</p>
<p>flounder and bluefish</p>
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<p>Parents discuss with great passion on this forum the necessity to learn and live the other cultures of the world, how necessary it is for a modern officer. Maybe we should start by learning the other coast of the US.</p>
<p> [quote=grad/dad] Cod is a great and nutritious fish.
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<p>This is not about a great, nutritious, tasty, flaky fleshed, fish that is the primary seafood staple of most of the cold water world, it is about the attempt to find fault with a policy of mandatory meals with which they disagree.</p>
<p>Go to the prepared frozen food section at your local supermarket and eliminate the cod. Very little will remain.</p>
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<p>This thread would close down if they did. The Brigade and Bancroft Hall is a rumor mill, pure and simple. Was the Halloween concert really every cancelled? I will therefore choose to believe the Commandant, Captain Klein, when, along with other members of the administration, she has stated on many occasions that the food shortage lasted all of one meal. I have talked to a lot of midshipmen. Even though I refuse to stoop to the level necessary to ask such a question, most realize that I must be informed enough to know what is happening, and have also informed me that the commandant was correct. The same has been posted by real live actual midshipmen on this forum. Are they liars? Some have attempted to make Orwellian ties to this situation. They are probably correct. If one believes that there was a food shortage and professes it long enough, it might become true, no matter what the actuality.</p>
<p> [quote=grad/dad] USNA69 I will agree with you on this one except for a couple of stipulations. Usually in combat when the command of "charge" or "execute" is given, the field commanders, whether ships, ground troops or squadrons have been briefed in advance and at the same time briefed the women and men in their command on the action that is about to be undertaken.
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<p>Of course. Maybe I should have used a more impromptu order such as “retreat”. The point I was attempting is that the decision to follow any order is not optional. During certain situations, it must be executed on blind faith.</p>
<p>"Parents discuss with great passion on this forum the necessity to learn and live the other cultures of the world, how necessary it is for a modern officer. Maybe we should start by learning the other coast of the US." usna69</p>
<p>Where are those emoticons when you really need them? Clearly (at least to me), when I asked if COD is the only fish served on the East Coast I was joking. ;) Last time we ate at the Chart House in Annapolis the mid had pistachio encrusted Mahi Mahi, so I have empirical evidence that other fishies are available in the area. In my opinion, eating COD in the Chesapeake Bay region is like eating soy-burgers in Kansas City. </p>
<p>On the issue of cultural awareness, I would consider myself pretty 'with it.' In fact, I may even have more miles on my odometer than you, despite your military service. Though I live on the West Coast, we've spent quite a bit of time on the East Coast. My mid renewed her passport for the fourth time at 18 years of age prior to I-day. I've visited every state in the Union except for Alaska. I've lost count of the number of times I've been to Hawaii (100+). I've traveled extensively throughout the Western Hemisphere; lived in Europe; spent part of my honeymoon in the DDR. I read a couple of foreign languages (half-life has expired) and I can identify at least 53 African countries. Come to think of it, my cultural awareness may account for my early conversion from Orange County Republican to progressive Democrat! :)</p>
<p>^^^^^^^^^I meant the mids, but nice bio.</p>
<p>This thread is roadkill...</p>
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Even though I refuse to stoop to the level necessary to ask such a question, most realize that I must be informed enough to know what is happening, and have also informed me that the commandant was correct.
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<p>Belive what you will.
You were not there.</p>
<p>Confinement to "one meal" would hardly justify:
1. "over 100 letters" received to one state senators office
2. "and countless emails" added to that.
3. enough so that the board of visitors placed "food" as an item on their agenda
4. enough so that the DANT and SUPE addressed this SPECIFIC ISSUE for nearly 35 MINUTES of their meeting.
5. enough so that the SUPE and DANT were advised to "correct the situation once and for all..." "I don't want another complaint coming across my desk".....</p>
<p>all this for one meal????????????
hardly.
But you know what...... it is on the radar screen now.
And there is not a doubt in my mind it took the front pages of the local newspapers to get it there.
AND THEREIN LIES THE SHAME.</p>
<p>It was "unnecessary". Totally.
It could have been avoided. Totally.</p>
<p>The board of visitors stated it best..."perhaps it would be wise going forward to consider the ramifications of your decisions before setting them into motion."</p>
<p>That says it all.
Might want to dust off your sources a bit..... and that bottle of merlot.</p>
<p>One final note-
and while this is just MO, it seems to me that the discussion before the board of visitors would have been halved had the Dant just said right out front that "we goofed"..... and "we have now fixed".....
it was only after her "it was for one meal" that they jumped all over her.
They were not happy.
And it was clear they don't want USNA "all over the front pages of the newspapers" over items such as "not feeding the troops."<br>
"I can think of no greater demoralizer"................
the senators remark, not mine-
but we are of the same mind.</p>
<p>ps... cod fish can be excellent, put in the hands of the right chef.
But it could have been "any fish".....
the bottom line is that most men don't like fish.... most kids do not like fish..... and there are many adults that still don't like fish....men, women or otherwise!!!!!!!!</p>
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"GoMids.com has confirmed through USNA officials that the Brigade of Midshipmen will be in Alumni Hall on Wednesday, Oct. 10th at 8 p.m. to watch the Navy/Pitt game on ESPN. Also, 200 mids will travel to the game as part of a movement order. David Ausiello is working on getting answers to several questions regarding what would appear to be a course change from USNA administrators."
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<p>Yes- lets hope some fair winds continue to blow!</p>
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Grad/Dad says: Please DO NOT assume that this is a result of the posts on these sites, or the comments from parents at various forums. Let's assume this is because the efforts of the Brigade have been outstanding, and this is the result.
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<p>I would love to believe that it is the result of the efforts of the Brigade- and hope that, indeed, it is the case.</p>
<p>I have no doubt it has absolutely nothing to do with parental comments- here or elsewhere. My gut is that the current admistration could give a r@ts @$$ for what parents think.</p>
<p>The pragmatic side of me wonders, however, if it has more to do with the Board of Visitors who questioned the current policy, and "advised" it be "reconsidered." ....and they very much care about what the "tax paying, voting, parents" think!
Apparently the "Face of the Navy" from their perspective includes the MIDS... and not all were on-board with the explanations given as to "why" they appear to be MIA.</p>
<p>Having said that.... did appreciate the Supe's position that the mids were being overused for "recruitment purposes"..... not sure if I would necessarily include football games in with that, but a case could be made for the number of missed classes..... as USNA69 posted eons ago, no doubt games will be limited to saturdays henceforth..... might solve the problem in many ways!</p>
<p>Bottom line-
No doubt we will never know why the "course correction."
But I am glad that those who choose will be able to go and see the game.
And better yet, 200 or so of them will be able to go in person!</p>
<p>Lets hope the winds continue to correct!</p>
<p>"Fire it up!!!!!!!"</p>