<p>Referring to DocFrance’s words on the subject earlier this month----</p>
<p>“You can go to the Acceptance Parade, but again you can only count on being a Spectator. Chances of actually touching your kid aren’t high.”</p>
<p>Dear fellow discussion board comrades----the following will show you that we are clearly witnessing the tradition of a “kinder, gentler” academy—at least where the parent’s are concerned. (Gee, what is the place coming to?)</p>
<p>The following is copied and pasted directly from the AOG website:</p>
<p>July 22nd - 0950 MDT</p>
<p>Acceptance Parade: This information comes from the Commandant’s Protocol Rep.</p>
<p>1100 - Fourthclass cadets allowed to rendezvous at Clune Arena w/Parents, sponsors
– Fourthclass Cadets must remain in Cadet Area
– Fourthclass Cadets may escort visitors to the squadron area with AOC approval
(limit to 1 escort per 10 visitors)
– Parents/Visitors not authorized to dine in Mitchell Hall
1630 - All visitors must depart cadet area</p>
<hr>
<p>I asked follow-on questions in different areas. Here is supplemental information:
(1) Keep in mind your cadet may have to take care of some business during those hours
- Computer pickup; etc.
(2) Parents parking in Clune Arena parking lot are currently scheduled to be bused to and from the parade.
(3) Since the squadrons march off the parade field in squadron order (1 - 36), the low number squadrons will likely be pinned-on quicker. This means they will likely be the first to arrive at Clune Arena.</p>
<p>Well, there you have it!
For all you hard-core “old schoolers”—let’s just look at all of this parental involvement as part of a NEW academy tradition!</p>
<p>JAM, you sh/ visit the Naval Academy Thread:CLASS OF 2009 PROFILE for a continuing discussion of the "progressive" Navy and how differently the plebes/parents are treated compared to USMA/USMMA [of course we discount the USMMA experience, considering it is only 17 DAYS].</p>
<p>Perhaps your successful outreach to your son at the Rodeo [or DDO-still can't figure out the difference] motivated administration to change policy! Oh my!? Do you think those that met w/ their parents actually had a good attitude when returning to the group?</p>
<p>I hope your'e joking about my influence. Really, I think that this schedule was probably on the calendar long before the Rodeo. What I do believe is that the academy is a progressive institution. While some traditions probably will never change---and shouldn't----(Honor code, 4th class system, BCT, rigorous academics, military training and knowledge, etc.)----USAFA is working hard to respond to changing times. The Air Force Academy has undergone some incredible scrutiny lately and suffered some harsh criticism---in my opinion, much of it unwarranted. That's what happens when taxpayers are footing the bill. (By the way, my take on the scrutiny---BRING IT ON!---I am faithful the academy will stand worthy--indeed, exceptional--- in the end.)But I digress.....</p>
<p>The point is that some traditions can CHANGE successfully. I honestly don't think that my cadet will be any less of a soldier because of my brief encounter with him at the Rodeo, nor do I think he will be any less of a fine potential officer if my husband and I get to celebrate his acceptance with him for 3-5 hours after the parade. </p>
<p>In fact, for the record, I will dare to submit this possibility:---He may even be better for it! I do admit I don't know everything, though. After all---I'm</p>
<p>It's certainly not the end of the world and I certainly prefer planned interaction as opposed to the haphazard sort of thing that happens with Field Day or the Rodeo. My personal preference would be to completely isolate the basic through BCT--removing the possibility of abovementioned interaction--and then allow things like this for Acceptance. It's more consistent, fair, planned, and controllable. I knew this was going to happen a week ago while talking with one of the USAFA PTB. Didn't hint it here for obvious reasons. I also passed on comments about rodeo/field day. </p>
<p>i've seen lots of changes in my many years of USAFA association. Most have been good. Most of the bad ones have been corrected. USAFA will always have to adjust to the times (internet, easier travel, more affluent/connected/(choose your adjective) parents. I just want them to give it some thought before they do...</p>
<p>There's always a balance that I think we need to understand, though. The more USAFA becomes like a 'real college' by increasing parent involvement/interaction, lightening academic loads, reducing the core, reducing athletic requirements, reducing meaningful stress in training (all have occurred in the last 25 years and I DO have the data available), the less valid is the argument that USAFA should exist given it's high price per 2Lt.</p>
<p>"While some traditions probably will never change---and shouldn't... 4th class system..."</p>
<p>Too late, that's already gone. How the new system compares to it in respect to the quality of officers produced is undetermined.</p>
<p>Concerning scrutiny of the Academy, although it is true that taxpayers do "foot the bill," I personally do not thing they should have their hands in everything. Those individuals who have never been to the Academy, never served in the military, and have very limited knoweldge of both (at best) are not in the position to adequately determine policy at such an institution. Some of the ways of the Academy (and military in general, I suspect) would not make sense to common civilians (to include media and politicians). I have seen numerous things in my short time at the Academy be removed due to it not being "appropriate." If you were to hear a description of some of the old training methods, even as recent as 3 years ago, not understanding how they fit into the bigger picture and the necessity of them, you (or the random taxpayer) may deem such instances as completely unacceptable. I don't deny that the Academy has had problems that need to be dealt with, but making some of the changes they have, I view is that they are weakening the very purpose of the Academy. Also, some scrutiny allows an institution to grow, but too much takes the focus away from the mission at hand. There are Academy grads who attribute part of how they survived to their strenous fourth class year; however, when they got rid of so much (particularly with the Agenda For Change), that rationale didn't seem to matter. The Academy isn't just another college and if the only thing new lieutenants graduate with is a bachelors degree, there is a huge problem.</p>
<p>UN. You typicaly have very reasoned comments. I only take exception to one thing:
Those individuals who have never been to the Academy, never served in the military, and have very limited knoweldge of both (at best) are not in the position to adequately determine policy at such an institution. </p>
<p>A fundamental element in our system of government is that the military submits to civilian oversight. It IS the civilians, regardless of their military experience, that determine policy for our country's military and, by extension, the military acadamies.
We could go on and on [and I am sure that some will] about whether change is better or worse or whatever. The pendulum will probably swing too far in one directions [making the Academy more like a civilian college--see USMA] before it swings back; and, yes, you will always have over-zealous parents [not necessarily JAM] that want to hug their babies one too many times.</p>
<p>I'm a big fan of civilian control of the military--it's part of the Constitution that I've sworn to uphold and defend--but there's also a role for the military in there to give advice to the Executive Branch. It's also incumbent on the civilian leaders to make informed decisions. Certainly, the nation will have to live with the result--one that's not apparent in the case of the military academies for MANY, many years. UN is asking for informed policy making based on available data, testimonials, and evidence of past successes and failures. We don't need career military officers to make these decisions, just civilian leaders that are wise enough to accept their input and make the best possible decision within the overall context of the situation.</p>
<p>The most valuable single experience I had as a cadet was not BCT--that was FAR too easy, even in the late 70s. SERE: Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape training that is now only available after graduation, was an amazing experience. The physical (stress positions, confinement, deprivation, beatings, interrogations, sleeping in the mud in the forest at 9kft and foraging for grasshoppers, etc) taught me more about myself and made me a better officer and citizen than any single thing before or since. Coming immediately after my doolie year, though, I was ready for it. EVERYONE at USAFA should have that opportunity. I think I know my physical and mental limits--though I still test them routinely to be sure. I'm not as confident that today's service academy cadets & mids know theirs. Yet. I'd rather learn in a controlled environment like USAFA than on the streets of Bagdad or the halls of the Pentagon on 9/11. More importantly, I want to be confident that those around me have learned the same...</p>
<p>Well said doc---I, too, am saddened by the removal of SERE from the academy training curriculum. My husband concurs with you---believing SERE to have been his most significant "limit testing" experience at USAFA. We're getting a little off topic, but just a quick question---</p>
<p>Is it true that SERE is only available to SOME of the graduates, such as those going into pilot training and nav training? And was it removed in part because of the perceived potential of sexual harrassment issues? Sad, really, because women and men alike in wartime situations will often be treated in such a way that their gender WILL be exploited. What better place to prepare a potential POW or downed airman than the environment of a military academy, where, as you say (unlike in wartime)---the environment is carefully measured and controlled for everyone's safety.</p>
<p>Only those going to aircrew duty or combat (spec ops, etc) will go to SERE now, after graduation. Original changes to SERE were following accusations of assault and improper actions by cadets. That eliminated the resistance and escape part, but the survival and evasion part was continued as Cadet Survival Training--until this summer. There was significant buzz that SERE in all its glory would be reinstated after 9/11 proved to us that we're all combatants (even space geeks like me), but I think the ultimate decision came down to money.</p>
<p>I apologize for any confusion by my earlier comment about civilians making policy decisions. Doc pretty much cleared up what I had tried to say. I only meant that I wanted informed decisions to be made - that those who are in power take into consideration all of the information available and keep the bigger picture in mind.</p>
<p>Unfortunanately, considering current affairs, your expectations may be too high. [Although they should continue to be so high.] Asking for "civilian leaders that are wise enough to accept their input and make the best possible decision within the overall context of the situation" seems to be an unattainable goal at the moment.</p>
<p>Doc, I understand your concern about not pushing these kids to find their limits. In my opinion, you and UN are correct that making it "easier" is not necessarily the answer. Some of the stories coming out of the Academy these days, nonetheless, ARE troubling and some additional oversight seems warranted.</p>
<p>RE: SERE
Why everyone at the USAFA should have the opportunity and not other officers and enlisted? I don't think it's crucial that the timeline for a program of that sort be during the academy years when the opportunity could be presented after.</p>
<p>Also, I don't think anyone has to worry; the academy is still a fine institution that will continue to graduate successful officers.</p>
<p>Mr. Bill! I'm crushed! Now haven't I agreed with all of your helpful advice? Now you've gone & turned on me. I didn't catch this till today. ".....how differently the plebes/parents are treated compared to USMA/USMMA [of course we discount the USMMA experience, considering it is only 17 DAYS]." Darn, I must have been asleep at the wheel again. Come on over to the USMMA site and discuss dining etiquette with us! Also please enjoy the remarks that were made about AF. You have to come over and play at our site cause frankly, I'm scared of DocFrance! HA! </p>
<p>Kidding aside. Doc is to be treasured. Hear that Doc? You do have my deepest respect. UnCynical too! Wish my kid would have had some advice like what has been given here when he was going through the application process. He may have even ended up at the AFA! ;) I wouldn't have been less proud if he had. But he is where he belongs and the military does indeed take care of it's own. As parent's, we can just sit back & watch them fly! And of course chat and bother people on here cause we're empty nesters with no lives anymore. If anyone has a spare kid, send him/her on!</p>
<p>BTW - I know the answer to your debate on civilians having input: Put them through SERE & if they make it, then let them have their input. And yes Mr. Bill, that last discounted day of Indoc ends tomorrow! I find myself grinning really really big as I write this. I'm so gonna celebrate with large quantities of ice cream. See ya on the other side!</p>
<p>Hey Bill0510 ... I am sure you were joking when you discounted USMMA because their Indoc is only 17 days.</p>
<p>You see, even though they have a shortened period of indoctrination, the plebes, nonetheless, cannot see their parents, family, etc., until Acceptance Weekend Sept. 16-18. Hence, it will be 71 days until we can see our kids, and that is tough for all.</p>
<p>Moreover, they are still limited to one phone call on Sundays, although I think the time will increase from 5 minutes to 10 (yeah!)
One good thing that will happen this week is that they will finally be issued their laptops (as the academic classes begin, Tuesday, July 26th.); therefore, they can begin using e-mail & IM's.</p>
<p>No doubt we can all agree that as much as all of us think its tough on the kids and parents of Academy students; all of this pales in comparison to what our deployed Military and their families are going through. God bless them all!</p>
<p>Jamzmom's been reading "Starship Troopers" it seems...</p>
<p>(docfrance, checking in from an internet cafe while on a well-earned vacation--doing megamiles on the 10kft+ trails in the CO Rockies... see you in a few more days kids--and parents. You, too, UN--my UN-daughter)</p>
<p>Yikes! You're sneaky Doc. You just pop in and out. Its kinda creepy! Ok. Ya lost me. Starship? I'm blonde here. Satire, irony? What... Bill picked on me first. Say something freaky to him too!</p>