ACT and SAT for Ivies

Test Preparation
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<p>How do super-competitive schools see SAT and ACT scores? What is considered a "good" score? What's a "competitive" score? For example, does a 2100 put you in the running and a 2300 make you a cut above the rest? What about the ACT?</p>

<p>I don't just want a simple middle 50% range. What score do I really need to get in order to be competitive for an Ivy League university?</p>

<p>(And I don't want a "whole application" speech - I'd just like a good number to aim for - even though I've already taken my tests :))</p>

<p>Also, do they weigh the SAT more than the ACT? I know they typically say they don't, but I see that 90+% of students submit the SAT whereas only 20% or so submit the ACT? Is someone at a disadvantage by only submitting an ACT score?</p>

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<p>750+ on every test is where you want to be (to make sure you above the mean). ACT = ~34.</p>

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<p>More students submit the SAT simply because the Ivy Leagues are on the East Coast, and the SAT is much more popular there. There are some people who will tell you the SAT is considered more strongly, but I’ve never seen any evidence for that.</p>

<p>Anyway, bluebayou is about right. There’s really no such thing as a good score at the top schools, because basically everyone who’s competitive will have a good score. The difference between 2250 and 2350 is honestly not that significant.</p>

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<p>The only caveat is that if applying to Engineering programs, an 800 on Math 2 looks much, much better. :D</p>

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<p>If you’re more active outside of the classroom, and you have a 2250, I think that’s better than a 2350 with no EC’s, but I can’t be sure. :P</p>

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<p>actually someone posted a link on here awhile ago about how there is an exponential increase for acceptance with increasing SAT score</p>

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<p>But that simply does not account for the fact that, in 2009, there were a total of approximately 1,530,000 students took the SAT ([SAT](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/SAT-Scores-Down-Slightly-as/48166/]SAT[/url]”>http://chronicle.com/article/SAT-Scores-Down-Slightly-as/48166/)</a>) and a near-similar 1,480,469 took the ACT ([ACT](<a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/09/pdf/National2009.pdf]ACT[/url]”>http://www.act.org/news/data/09/pdf/National2009.pdf)</a>). The ACT’s surge in popularity outpaces that of the SAT and, as anticipated, it will become the nation’s most popular college entrance exam within the next few years. Yet, the SAT/ACT percentiles of those admitted will inevitably continue to be very lopsided at the nation’s most prestigious universities. Here are some sources pertaining to this exact topic:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/573451-how-many-people-get-into-harvard-has-sat-2400-a-2.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/573451-how-many-people-get-into-harvard-has-sat-2400-a-2.html&lt;/a&gt; (See Post #21)</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/843741-sat-better-than-act-princeton.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/843741-sat-better-than-act-princeton.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>One’s chances, as examined at Harvard and Princeton, will begin to exponentially increase beginning at the 98th percentile (which approximates to a 2150 on the SAT) and beginning at the 94th percentile for MIT. Here is the link that hahalolk was referring to:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/865226-addressing-few-concerns.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/865226-addressing-few-concerns.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>You clearly didn’t pick up anything I said except “SAT” and “popular”. There are more and more people taking the ACT, but they are still predominantly from the Midwest (including the states where high schoolers must take it). The applicants to Ivy League schools are predominantly not from the Midwest.</p>

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<p>Sure, it is clear that elite universities have applicants from an SAT-majority demographic but not to the extent to account for the common lopsided 93/30 statistics in favor of the SAT. If you have not done so, please read the links above.</p>

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<p>In fact, it might actually be helpful if I simply repost what I stated in Post #21 of the aforementioned forum:</p>

<p>"If we view Princeton’s SAT/ACT score profile of admitted students (collegeboard.com), we can see the heavy slant in favor of the SAT (98% of those admitted sent SAT scores while only 22% of those admitted submitted ACT scores). Also, those admitted do not overwhelmingly reside from states in which the SAT is the more common test. In fact, even if the opposite were true, it would not be pertinent since these students often take the SAT in addition to the ACT. </p>

<p>Considering the heavy overlap of the Princeton applicant pool with that of HYS including academic talent and similarity in geographical profiles, we can determine that Princeton’s claim is legitimate. We can see that Harvard is slightly more lenient towards those who submit the ACT (96% submit SAT, 29% submit ACT) (collegeboard.com). Yale’s CB profile (SAT: 92%, ACT: 27%) (collegeboard.com) demonstrates less weight placed on the SAT with a more favorable view of the ACT relative to Princeton. Stanford is the most liberal of the four (SAT: 93%, ACT: 34%) (collegeboard.com) which suggests that its policy declares that the ACT is a more suitable substitute relative to that of Princeton. </p>

<p>Also, we must consider that most of those sending the ACT also submitted the SAT. If we had statistics regarding “SAT-only” applicants versus “ACT-only,” we would invariably see an increasingly skewed preference for the SAT over the ACT since the majority of applicants are “SAT-only” students. We can discard the idea that the SAT is more popular among those applying since the SAT is enjoying its last year or two as America’s most taken standardized test. Although most admitted students may come from SAT-dominant locales, the proportion does not fit properly with the aformentioned statistics.</p>

<p>Thus, Princeton favors a test that predicts future performance (SAT) to a greater degree than one that demonstrates current performance (ACT) to the greatest degree of the four, although each shows a tendency to favor one over the other in a lopsided proportion. As stated previously, if we had more statistics comparing “SAT-only” students to “ACT-only” this slant would be more apparent. If equal weight were placed on each, we would see distributions similar to (SAT: 75%, ACT: 60%), but this equitability is not demonstrated."</p>

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<p>Do you have any actual evidence that students who apply to HYPS are not much more likely to take the SAT than the ACT? Because without that, your numbers mean nothing.</p>

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<p>I wonder who in here has seen Naviance data of top colleges for competitive high schools. Let me tell you; just like a 4.0 can be significantly stronger than a 3.9, a 2350 can be significantly stronger than a 2250. Whether it’s fair or not is not for us to judge; this sort of data (which I will not provide for confidentiality reasons) nevertheless shows that your SAT score is rarely ever high enough.</p>

<p>As for SAT vs. ACT, it’s really really hard to say. Here is where I have trouble accepting that they are treated equally since I believe the ACT doesn’t provide the same uniqueness of data that the SAT does; it seems redundant in that it measures skills similar to those necessary for high grades and subject test scores. Furthermore, when a college accepts either the ACT or the SAT and SAT subject test scores, that college is implying that the ACT can replace both the SAT and SAT subject tests, and this is simply stretching it even further and reveals what I think is the reality of the situation: colleges want geographical diversity and will take the ACT to accomodate or even help out the kids from less-represented states. But if you’re an ACTer from NY/CA, I wouldn’t expect a similar reaction. But heck, maybe some unknown factor (political correctness?) really has driven all colleges to treat the SAT and ACT equally regardless of geographical circumstance. In that case, it’s not our job to discuss whether it’s justified or not.</p>

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<p>Very few institution release SAT/ACT statistics that juxtapose applicant statistics versus those for admitted/enrolled students. To do so would bring up discussion regarding inequitable admission practices, just as universities prefer to hide acceptance rates among individual ethnic groups to avoid accusations of discrimination. But through rudimentary deduction with the available data, we can draw supported conclusions regarding the variation in the significance of different college entrance exams upon admission.</p>

<p>Demographics do have an effect on who applies to a university but we cannot draw definitive inferences from those alone. It is possible to extract the test choice proportions for those in particular demographic areas but those are irrelevant when it comes to predicting overall applicant quality, test submission behavior, or the effect that standardized test scores will have on an individual applicant in the admissions process. But elite universities that receive a considerable amount of students from ACT-majority states still have a significant proportion of the student body that takes the SAT (i.e. Northwestern (80%), Chicago (85%) (Source: collegeboard.com)). Similarly, the 98/22 statistic in favor of the SAT at Princeton simply cannot be accounted for in the near 50/50 relationship between those who take the SAT and ACT. Even with an appropriate compensation made for demographics, the proportions certainly are far from congruous. But, as monstor344 correctly indicated, an adjustment for population discrepancies may not be proper to consider given universities’ admission boosts to students from less-represented geographical areas.</p>

<p>Regarding Princeton, there is firm evidence that there is a nearly doubled acceptance rate for those who submit the SAT over the ACT, at 10.1% versus 5.7% (Source: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/843741-sat-better-than-act-princeton.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/843741-sat-better-than-act-princeton.html&lt;/a&gt; - Post #1). That reflects not demographical disparities, but Princeton’s admission policies regarding standardized test scores.</p>

<p>Moreover, Princeton’s SAT/ACT percentages (SAT: 98%, ACT: 22%) are markedly different from those of Yale (SAT: 91%, 32%), despite the overlap in the applicant pools. The dissimilarity is too significant to dismiss as basic variability. Nor is it best to automatically presume that one criterion can be an equitable substitute for another or that it holds the same significance on admission across all universities.</p>

<p>The argument for the equitable treatment of the ACT and SAT relies on nothing more than the unconvincing claims of admission officers and the fact that an option is available to submit either test. It is well-known that Princeton publicly declared that the SAT is “strongly preferred” until it recently, yet dubiously, neutralized its stance ([Princeton</a> University | Admissions Facts and Statistics](<a href=“http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/princeton.asp]Princeton”>http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/princeton.asp)). Nonetheless, that new perspective is not exactly mirrored in its admission policies. The viewpoint that the ACT and SAT are parallel measures of academic competence is designed to accommodate the largest demographic possible in order to increase applications for the sake of maximizing selectivity and public image. </p>

<p>Also, the preference for the SAT (in differing degrees) at elite institutions relies on both the historical reputation of the test itself and its unique distinction as a reasoning-based exam. The ACT, in contrast, is standardized closer to a high school curriculum, which is plainly evident in a student’s coursework.</p>

<p>Of course, the extent to which certain qualifications have bearing in the admissions process is specific to a given university. But 98% is a very persuasive piece of evidence to infer that Princeton’s partiality for the SAT exceeds that of others.</p>

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<p>The aptitude differences between two students with these scores may not be utterly substantial, but considering the rest of the application equal, admission probability will disproportionately pull in favor of the 2350 applicant.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.infogoaround.org/CollegesChinese/RevealRanking.pdf[/url]”>http://www.infogoaround.org/CollegesChinese/RevealRanking.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (See graphs on page eight)</p>

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<p>Well yes. Holding the rest of the application equal, the 4.65 GPA student will be admitted over the 4.6 one too. The point is that there are other things you can do that will make the rest of the application NOT equal.</p>

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<p>Which is a really strawman. A higher test scorer tends to have higher grades, for example. </p>

<p>Of course, when it comes to testing, higher is ALWAYS better than the alternative. But the same goes for everything else in the application: grades, rank, essays, EC’s, volunteer hours, glowing recs, and course rigor. Doh!</p>

<p>The point is that once an applicant clears the 750+ threshold, test scores become much less important bcos the adcom knows that the student can successfully complete the Ivy-level work. (The adcom just won’t care much between a 750 and an 800 bcos the HS curriculum & teacher are also a factor. For example the math curriculum at our HS does not cover some items on Math 2 in precalc.) Then it’s on to the gpa, essays and recs. Lower test scores, say lower quartile, just mean that everything else in the app has to be just that much better, and/or bring a hook.</p>

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<p>Yes, in all likelihood, that would be the case.</p>

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<p>Amarkov and I were simply referencing our own hypothetical scenarios when one spot remains between two applicants. There is absolutely nothing fallacious about assuming that an applicant with the greater qualification (considering everything else equal) would have a greater likelihood of admittance.</p>

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<p>Yes, true.</p>

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<p>It is safe to assume that there exists a linear correlation between standardized test scores and performance on other objective criteria. In theory, this should consequently cause a linear increase in admission probability. However, based on the graphs on page eight of the link below, at HPM and other universities that engage in highly strategic admission practices, a higher demonstration of merit at or above the 98th percentile causes a rapid increase in admission probability.</p>

<p>With certainty, a student with a 750 or above in each section is academically capable of enduring the coursework at virtually any university. However, to assume that SAT section scores above 750 provide diminishing returns or offer negligible benefits is patently false. As demonstrated, SAT scores above the 98th percentile offer highly disproportionate increases in the probability of admission, not linearly and certainly not regressively as many inaccurately believe.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.infogoaround.org/CollegesChinese/RevealRanking.pdf[/url]”>http://www.infogoaround.org/CollegesChinese/RevealRanking.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;