Adam and Eve: Do we have the same parents? Can Catholics explain?

<p>"It is still a great and influential work of ancient literature, like Homer's Iliad and Odyssey or Hesiod's Theogony. I don't know of anyone who still believes in the classical Greek religion, but people to this day manage to find much fruit in the study of those texts.</p>

<p>Two of the greatest contemporary Genesis scholars, Robert Alter and Everett Fox (both professors of Hebrew), aren't religious men in the least -- both are Atheists. Yet they still recognize the great literary and historical value of the text."</p>

<p>Wow, we agree again! Are we on a roll or what?</p>

<p>Fides thank you for clearing the air about infallibility.</p>

<p>Could you also clarify how "the rock" ment the papacy? I'm not trying to be offensive. I'd just like to learn, which is the purpose of our discussion.</p>

<p>@tisthetruth</p>

<p>What you do is up to you. Religion before wants or wants before religion.</p>

<p>I have friends who are gay and I find them to be very open minded, respectful and geniunely great people. and sometimes I wonder why God has made it just man and woman. </p>

<p>It is a question of faith and priority.</p>

<p>BTW if people would like join the discussion between me and Fides you are more than welcome.</p>

<p>"The Catholic Church does not promote Creationism (Genesis literalism) or Darwinistic evolution. These are both seen as extremes, even dangerous extremes. The Church's view, in this day and age, is something of a middle road. It holds that God did create the universe, but based on what we know from scientific discoveries, not exactly like it went down in the opening chapters of Genesis; likewise, it also holds that evolution is a reality, but based on our faith in God, not Darwin's atheistic version of evolution where man is nothing but a mere animal. "</p>

<p>and the roll continues! Cool!</p>

<p>"I assert that, while the Book of Genesis (and every other book of the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament) is the Word of God and 100% inerrant and infallible, that there are certain stories found in God's Holy Word that are not meant to be interpretated in a literalist way. So, God, in inspiring His chosen authors to pen exactly what they did and nothing more, purposely designed certain stories that He meant for us to interpret symbolically and metaphorically -- in other words, critically, finding the truth in them in between the lines. (Accepting the fact that God meant for certain stories in His Book to be interpreted in a critical manner by no means, to my mind, suggests that His Book is not 100% divinely inspired, inerrant, or infallible. It just means that God is a creative writer, and utilized different ways of revealing the truth to us.)"</p>

<p>Wow, I find myself rooting for you, Fides! </p>

<p>(krnp: Fides and I have sparred before, so it is refreshing to agree with him on some things now.)</p>

<p>I 100% agree with Fides that the most important value of the stories in the bible are in their essential, rather than literal, truth - the deep, profound meaning they can impart to us.</p>

<p>I disagree that the bible is the infallible word of God, but we've discussed that already in another thread (I think it was the one about 'quit fornicating' but it might have also been in another as well).</p>

<p>So, while I do agree with Fides on the essence of what he is saying, I would have to extend this to also include OTHER scriptures (and even great works of literature) as well. I believe that God's inspiration is to be found all around us, even in Nature (which is the 'bible of the Pagan religion). I think it is arrogant to think that Christians have a monopoly on God. I think God has inspired MANY different people in various cultures over milennia. Hence, if you quite trying to nitpick on petty little details and actually look at the ESSENCE of the STORY in terms of archetypical and symbolic meanings, you will find the SAME thread of truth running through all the world's great religions: There is a Creator who loves us, we should turn with (pray and meditate) to see union with that Creator, we should have compassion, we should love, we should forgive, we should seek peace...etc. all of these are profound TRUTHS that can be found in many other great works besides the bible. And all of these great works have value far beyond their literal interpretation.</p>

<p>Fides, you know that, as a former Catholic, I no longer believe in hierarchial sturctures of organized religion. But, I do respect you for your views. Most especially, I respect that you look for the deeper meanings. This is awesome and to be commended!</p>

<p>lealdragon could you say why you're a "former" catholic?</p>

<p>Hi krnp, sure I will be happy to explain.</p>

<p>I was brought up Catholic, with a very 'fire and brimstone' dad. I went to Catholic school for 6 years, and to Mass about 3 times every week til I was 18.</p>

<p>While I have retained some of the core values and definitely still believe in God, my perception of God has changed dramatically. I no longer believe that there is such a thing as a single religion having all the answers. I think God is bigger than any box that any religion tries to put him in.</p>

<p>I have much more to say about it, but I've already said alot in some other threads, if you'd like to check these out:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=254251&highlight=catholic%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=254251&highlight=catholic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3203741&highlight=catholic#post3203741%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3203741&highlight=catholic#post3203741&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3175187&highlight=catholic#post3175187%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3175187&highlight=catholic#post3175187&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>WOW. I didn't get to read all of it but. WOW I am amazed! These discussions are just great. I'm learning alot.</p>

<p>Keep in mind I'm only 17. I had once aspired to become a pastor. But I found film to be much more fun xD. (obviously you and Fides have experienced much more)</p>

<p>However I love theology! I think it is great learning about what you are believing in and at the same time comparing and contrasting with others. </p>

<p>People should realize our world revolves around religion. </p>

<p>The only bad side to this whole thing. I hate typing and I always end up not saying what I want to. ahahahah. If only we could meet to discuss.</p>

<p>Great! Glad to see you are open-minded! Good luck on your search for truth!</p>

<p>"Could you also clarify how "the rock" ment the papacy?"</p>

<p>Below is a fairly good explanation by the lay Catholic theologian Karl Keating, from Catholic Answers (<a href="http://www.catholic.com)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.catholic.com)&lt;/a>. I'm strapped for time at the moment, so I post this in the hope that Keating can give you a general sense about where the Catholic Church is coming from regarding Peter and the Papacy. Namely, Scripture. </p>

<hr>

<p>PETER THE ROCK</p>

<p>By Karl Keating</p>

<p>Some years ago, before I took a real interest in reading the Bible, I tried to avoid missionaries who came to the door. I had been burned too often. Why open the door, or why prolong the conversation (if they caught me outside the house), when I had nothing to say? </p>

<p>For a layman, I suppose I was reasonably well informed about my faith—at least I never doubted it or ceased to practice it—but my own reading had not equipped me for verbal duels. </p>

<p>Then, one day, I came across a nugget of information that sent a shock wave through the next missionary who rang the bell and that proved to me that becoming skilled in apologetics isn’t really all that difficult. </p>

<p>When I answered the door, the lone missionary introduced himself as a Seventh-Day Adventist. He asked if he could "share" with me some insights from the Bible. </p>

<p>He flipped from one page to another, quoting this verse and that, trying to demonstrate the errors of the Church of Rome and the manifest truth of his own denomination’s position. </p>

<p>NOT MUCH TO SAY</p>

<p>I wasn’t entirely illiterate with respect to the Bible, but many verses were new to me. Whether familiar or not, the verses elicited no response from me, because I didn’t know enough about the Bible to respond effectively. </p>

<p>Finally the missionary got to Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church." </p>

<p>"Hold it right there!" I said. "I know that verse. That’s where Jesus appointed Simon the earthly head of the Church. That’s where he appointed him the first pope." </p>

<p>I knew he usually didn’t get any defense of the Catholic position at all as he went door to door, but sometimes a Catholic would speak up as I had. He had a reply, and I knew what it would be, and I was ready for it. </p>

<p>"I understand your thinking," he said, "but you Catholics misunderstand this verse because you don’t know any Greek. That’s the trouble with your Church and with your scholars. You people don’t know the language in which the New Testament was written. To understand Matthew 16:18, we have to get behind the English to the Greek." </p>

<p>"Is that so?" I said, leading him on. I pretended to be ignorant of the trap being laid for me. </p>

<p>"Yes," he said. "In Greek, the word for rock is petra, which means a large, massive stone. The word used for Simon’s new name is different; it’s Petros, which means a little stone, a pebble." </p>

<p>"You Catholics," the missionary continued, "because you don’t know Greek, imagine that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock. Actually, of course, it was just the opposite. He was contrasting them. On the one side, the rock on which the Church would be built, Jesus himself; on the other, this mere pebble. Jesus was really saying that he himself would be the foundation, and he was emphasizing that Simon wasn’t remotely qualified to be it." </p>

<p>"Case closed," he thought. </p>

<p>It was the missionary’s turn to pause and smile broadly. He had followed the training he had been given. He had been told that a rare Catholic might have heard of Matthew 16:18 and might argue that it proved the establishment of the papacy. He knew what he was supposed to say to prove otherwise, and he had said it. </p>

<p>"Well," I replied, beginning to use that nugget of information I had come across, "I agree with you that we must get behind the English to the Greek." He smiled some more and nodded. "But I’m sure you’ll agree with me that we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic." </p>

<p>"The what?" he asked. </p>

<p>"The Aramaic," I said. "As you know, Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke." </p>

<p>"I thought Greek was." </p>

<p>"No," I answered. "It was the language of culture and commerce; and most of the books of the New Testament were written in it, because they were written not just for Christians in Palestine but also for Christians in places such as Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, places where Aramaic wasn’t the spoken language. </p>

<p>"I say most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Many hold that Matthew was written in Aramaic—we know this from records kept by Eusebius of Caesarea—but it was translated into Greek early on, perhaps by Matthew himself. In any case the Aramaic original is lost (as are all the originals of the New Testament books), so all we have today is the Greek." </p>

<p>ARAMAIC IN THE NEW TESTAMENT</p>

<p>"We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ </p>

<p>"What’s more," I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form). </p>

<p>"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’ </p>

<p>"When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’" </p>

<p>For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. It was obvious he had never heard such a rejoinder. His brow was knit in thought as he tried to come up with a counter. Then it occurred to him. </p>

<p>"Wait a second," he said. "If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?" </p>

<p>"Because he had no choice," I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings. </p>

<p>"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock. </p>

<p>"I admit that’s an imperfect rendering of the Aramaic; you lose part of the play on words. In English, where we have ‘Peter’ and ‘rock,’ you lose all of it. But that’s the best you can do in Greek." </p>

<p>Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy. </p>

<p>MY TURN TO PAUSE</p>

<p>I stopped and smiled. The missionary smiled back uncomfortably, but said nothing. We exchanged smiles for about thirty seconds. Then he looked at his watch, noticed how time had flown, and excused himself. I never saw him again. </p>

<p>So what came of this encounter? </p>

<p>I realized that any literate Catholic—including you—could do the same. You don’t have to suspect your faith might be untrue when you can’t come up with an answer to a pointed question. </p>

<p>And what about the missionary? Did he go away with anything? I think so. I think he went away with a doubt regarding his understanding (or lack of understanding) of Catholics and the Catholic faith. I hope his doubt has since matured into a sense that maybe, just maybe, Catholics have something to say on behalf of their religion and that he should look more carefully into the Faith he once so confidently opposed. </p>

<hr>

<p>haha, lealdragon has a valid reason of not being Catholic anymore. </p>

<p>Catholic Mass was just toooo boring for me. I always fell asleep. Protestant Church keeps me much more awake :)</p>

<p>"Catholic Mass was just toooo boring for me. I always fell asleep. Protestant Church keeps me much more awake"</p>

<p>I'll admit, I'd be interested in checking out one of those wild black Southern Baptist Sunday services. I could never agree with them theologically, but man, they've got a robust worshipping spirit. Some of them practically have people doing back-flips up and down the aisles.</p>

<p>However, nothing can beat the Mass for me. You just have to know what is going on. In a way, it's like golf or baseball -- incredibly slow and boring if you don't know the game, but full of richness and drama and beauty if you do. The Mass, to me, is Heaven on earth.</p>

<p>I would actually love to see the Church switch back to the pre-Vatican II traditional Latin Mass. Throw the guitars away and bring back Gregorian Chant. With Papa Benedict at the helm, who knows, maybe Catholics will get at least a bit of that back.</p>

<p>There's a Catholic parish in Toronto that has permission from the Holy See to do the traditional Latin Mass, and it is so beautiful.</p>

<p>I don't see too much of a difference in beliefs...I mean I still go to Catholic mass when I'm at certain places, I go to both...its just I prefer the Protestant service if I have a choice. I was brought up Catholic and started going to Protestant Church about 4 years ago because of my step parents...but I can go to either and still get a message and something meaningful out of the experience.</p>

<p>"Some of them practically have people doing back-flips up and down the aisles."</p>

<p>Haha, that takes a little getting used to though</p>

<p>I think there is beauty to be found both in ritual (as long as the people understand the ritual, and not just the priest) and spontaneous, free-spirited expression.</p>

<p>I've gone to some Pentecostal churches strictly for the worship. It was such a high energy that I felt uplifted. Yeah, 'high' is the word! I agree with Fides though - I had to tune out the sermon. For awhile I would go and then just leave right after the worship.</p>

<p>Now, if only there were a church that combined the beautiful ritual of the Catholic Mass with the free spirit of the Pentacostals...or is that an oxymoron?</p>

<p>Synagogue, anyone? lol</p>

<p>"Now, if only there were a church that combined the beautiful ritual of the Catholic Mass with the free spirit of the Pentacostals...or is that an oxymoron?"</p>

<p>Not necessarily. It isn't my bag, but there's a growing movement in the Catholic Church (praised by Pope John Paul II) called the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Some of my friends -- very holy and pious people -- are really into it.</p>

<p>Clink here for more info:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>At the end of the day though, the Catholic Mass is about one thing: the Body and the Blood. The entire ritual of the Mass revolves around and is centered on the Eucharist. It has been official Church doctrine since day one that when an ordained priest, who acts In Persona Christi, consecrates the bread and wine, they truly become the Body and Blood of Christ. When you take Holy Communion, you are actually touching and recieving God in a real and physical way. And since Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is God's true Church, the Catholic Mass is the only place where this miraculous event happens. (Many theologians hold that it is possible for a true Eucharist to take place in some Protestant services and especially at Orthodox Christian and Anglican Masses, but the only place where it is always guarenteed is in the Catholic Church.) Every Catholic Mass, then, no matter how boring or crappy the sermon, is a miracle.</p>

<p>"Synagogue, anyone? lol"</p>

<p>I would LOVE to go to a synagogue as an observer -- an Orthodox one. I just haven't been invited by any of my Jewish friends. I'd go in a heartbeat though.</p>

<p>The thoroughly Jewish roots of the Christian faith is something that all Christians should educate themselves in. The best way to do that, aside from reading the Old Testament, is to actually attend a traditional synagogue. I understand that there are many similarities between the Orthodox Jewish service and the Christian (Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican/Lutheran) Mass. </p>

<p>I was invited to a Jewish Passover meal once, and it was an awesome experience. I learned a lot.</p>

<p>Reading the Hebrew Bible (what you call the Old Testament) will tell you almost nothing about Judaism. Judaism, no matter, what the stripe, is based more on rabbinic teachings (yes, a lot of them about what the sacred texts say) than on the text itself.</p>

<p>For instance, Leviticus says an awful lot about how to carry out the animal sacrifice and the role of the high priest. But no one performs sacrifices today. Sans the temple, there is no high priest. </p>

<p>I have been both to Orthodox Jewish services and to Catholic and other masses and there's very little in common. </p>

<p>Why not go to a service? Don't wait for an invitation? And, if you're interested in Judaism, also try conservative, reform and reconstructionist synagogues. Since Judaism doesn't try to to convert (and actually initially dissuades possible converts), no one will push you to do anything...except to have a munch after the service and to chat.</p>

<p>"So, I don't get the logic of humankind emerging from a single set of parents."</p>

<p>There are rabbinic stories that God created people in this way so that no one could claim that they were from the first people but others were not. It was a way to try to create common humanity.</p>

<p>Judaism's fun.</p>

<p>Btw- reconstructionists don't believe in god, I don't think, so they're not really considered Jewish. And Jews for Jesus aren't Jewish either.</p>

<p>Reconstructionists do believe in God -- at least the two Reconstructionists rabbis I know do.</p>

<p>But, yes, Jews for Jesus are Christians.</p>