Adding an Undergraduate Music Degree - STEM kid?

College Majors Music Major
1

Hi! I’ve been on CC a while but not as regards music. I have been dual credit at my state flagship (UNM) for a few years and have completed the major courses for the statistics major, as well as all general education requirements and the prerequisites for my French minor. I have 4 courses left in math. My original plan was a BS in math/statistics, possibly with a minor in French. Please bear in mind that I still plan to do this - at least the BS in math/statistics. I may or may not drop the minor in French. I graduate high school in May and will start as a freshman in fall with a 4-year full ride scholarship to UNM, although I can graduate in 1 year if I want to. I will definitely take at least 2 years, even without a music major.

Now on to the musical side. I have been in a girls’ community chorus for three years (freshman through junior years in high school) and have not taken any voice lessons due to cost. I know almost no theory (my sight-reading skills are ok and I can identify key signatures). Over the past year, my voice has improved tremendously - at least my director, friends, and I think so. I did make it into all-state chorus this year (auditioned but didn’t get in my freshman year, didn’t audition sophomore year).

I definitely want to pursue music to an extent in college. I’m 17 and, like I said, have a full ride (which won’t cover studio fees), so I have time. I will still have the BS in math/stats regardless of what I do (the 4 remaining math courses can easily fill the spaces the music program has for general education courses). At the minimum, I will audition for the university choirs and enroll in whichever one I’m placed into.

These are the other options (all including 5-10hr/wk of on-campus work):
A) Ignore coursework in music, but take voice lessons
B) Petition for studio instruction while neither majoring nor minoring in music
C) Get a BA in music… mostly theory and history, very little applied instruction.
D) Minor in music (vocal performance), which entails studio instruction for non-majors and theory and history for majors
E) Major in music (vocal performance).

(A), (B), and (D) allow me to graduate in 2 years with a BS; © takes 3 years - double degree BS/BA; naturally, (D) takes 4 years (I am definitely not skilled enough to bypass the freshman theory and studio coursework) and is a BS/BM double degree.

I love singing and think I could be fairly good, given instruction and time. I don’t entirely know, if I do major in music, what I’m heading for - I know being a musician is hard, and I am still really interested in math and stats. I may be interested in music education but don’t want to major in it.

So! Any thoughts?

2

I don’t know that many schools will allow someone who is neither majoring nor minoring in music to take voice lessons.

My D was a music concentration student, focusing on voice, in her education program. It was hard to get the voice teacher she originally wanted because she wasn’t a major. Priority went to majors, minors and concentrations were last. She eventually got the teacher she wanted but only because he heard her sing and overrode her denial from his studio.

That said, I think the music minor sounds like your best bet.

3

A couple of questions:

  1. Why would the BA in music entail very little applied study?
  2. Can you explain option D in more detail?

You have so much time, and essentially, this is a freebie! So why not explore?!? You could change your mind at any time, really… I would suggest (in addition to your Math/Stats coursework) an option that gets you started on the basic Theory/Aural Skills track (because these classes need to be taken in sequence, and take at least two years to complete), combined with regular voice lessons and a vocal ensemble. I think you’ll know pretty quickly (within a year or so…or even less) if you’re excited to pursue this level of music curriculum. Language requirements for any vocal degree are something to consider, too, but I don’t think you need to jump right in on language. You’ll definitely be busy, but if you are exploring a passion, I think you will be glad you did this! Be sure to work closely with an advisor in the music department along the way, as your goals may change as you go.

4

Some schools will have lessons for those not majoring or minoring in music, or even taking music classes, but I would think you would want some history and theory.

I’ve never heard of a BS/BA combo. (A BS has fewer gen eds than a BA.) That is essentially two undergrad degrees.

Can you do a double major? Your situation is unusual in that you have made so much progress towards a degree, so a double major would not be as onerous as it would be for others.

Or a double degrees? (Usually BA or BS with BM but some schools have MM).

Have you read the double degree dilemma essay posted closer to the top of the forum? It might be helpful.

If a minor is required in order to have lessons on campus, I think you could start with that. Alternatively, you could try to find lessons off campus a la carte so to speak- if you can afford that.

Since you are tentative, I think you might start out with lessons, ensemble work, and an intro theory series- while you finish math. Then you can decide if you want to do a music minor (but you will be out of school pretty quickly and might want more time for the music), a double major (math and music), or a double degree which would involve a BS in math and a BM.

Does the university where you are headed offer all these options and have flexibility in terms of making choices?

5

How about you start with the basic courses for the music minor/major (should be similar as first semester classes tend to be foundational courses) + Italian 101+ one more French class + Math, then more music classes+ Italian 102+ Math. Then regroup and see what makes the most sense.

(Voice = French, Italian, German are important. You don’t need to speak the language you’re singong but… It does make more sense to!)

6

In order to allow the possibility of a music major - that would be a 2nd degree, a BM - without taking more than 4 years, I need to take these courses/lessons/ensembles in fall that I would not already be taking:

  1. Freshman Music Theory/Aural Skills - 4 credits
  2. Group Piano I or II - 1 credit
  3. Diction for Singers I - 2 credits
  4. 1 hr lesson per week - 2 credits
  5. 1 hr Concert Music per week - 0 credits

I will take a required freshman honors course and special-topics statistics course (offered once every 4 years), each 3 credits, and a vocal ensemble, 1 credit, regardless of what I choose.

@compmom I’m already double majoring (math and stats), but my options - past a minor - in music are a BA or a BM. Anything past a minor will require a separate degree (which is ok because the 2nd degree requirement is to have at least 30 additional credit hours, and I’d have over 60 add’l.) The difference in gen eds between the BS in math/stats and BA is insignificant - the BA requires 6 more credit hours of language, which I already have, and 2 other courses.

@techmom99 There are 2 types of lessons (same cost, different teachers, auditions required for all):

  1. APMS 101-102, 201-202, 301-302, 401-401: Lessons for BM students in their principal instrument or voice - those are 1hr/week. Other students can audition but rarely get into these.
  2. APMS 119-120, 219-220, 319-320, 419-420: Lessons for BA (music) and BM students (secondary instrument or voice) - those are 1/2 hr/week. Other students can audition but, likewise, rarely get in.
  3. APMS 107-108, 207-208. Lessons for music minors and non-majors - those are 1/2 hr/week.

The theory classes are the same for everyone, but I’m not sure what lessons I should start out with, as they’re not allowed to count differently (i.e. APMS 101 or 119 cannot count towards the minor, as 107 is required). If I’m interested in the BM, I definitely need the piano and diction classes the first semester, as well as concert music (which I also need for a BA), in order to stay on track.

I actually could get a good amount of lessons in music with a BA - I didn’t notice the number of electives it allows to be voice lessons. However, the opera studios are only open to BM students, and the voice lessons are still half as long as for BM students.

Basically, here are my possibilities including music form:

  1. BS in Math/Stats with minors in French and music: https://■■■■■■/iZRh7n
  2. BS in Math/Stats with a minor in French and a BA in music: Page 2 of this pdf https://finearts.unm.edu/wp-content/uploads/degree-packets/BA-MUSIC-2017-2018.pdf, with almost all of the music electives being studio instruction, and almost all general eds and electives outside the major turning into my math/stats/French courses; ignore the last two semesters
  3. BS in Math/Stats with a minor in French and a BM in music: Page 2 of this pdf https://finearts.unm.edu/wp-content/uploads/degree-packets/BM-PERF-VOC-2017-2018.pdf, with almost all general eds and electives outside the major turning into my math/stats/French courses

The BA is obviously way more flexible than the BM, and if it wasn’t for the different types of lessons, it might be a better idea than a BM. Since the lesson types seemingly will lock me in… I don’t know what to do.

@MYOS1634 @dramasopranomom Yes, if I do music and stick around longer than 2 years (i.e. do more than minor) I will take Italian and German 101. My German pronunciation is ok (not as good as French because I haven’t studied it) but my Italian is terrible!

And yes, I have read the double degree dilemma. I just posted the separate thread because I thought my situation is a bit unique (in that I could do a true double degree within 4 years if I want, due to incoming credits).

7

What is easiest to switch into? I’m guessing the minor. So perhaps start with APMS 119-120?
Wrt the BM: do you have a secondary instrument?

I honestly think you can handle this schedule

  1. Freshman Music Theory/Aural Skills - 4 credits
  2. Group Piano I or II - 1 credit
  3. Diction for Singers I - 2 credits
  4. 1 hr lesson per week - 2 credits
  5. Freshman Honors course - 3 credits
  6. Special-topics Statistics - 3 credits
  7. French (advanced elective class) or Italian 101 - 3 credits (perhaps 4 if Italian)
    = Total 18-19 credits where in all likelihood 1 and 6 would be hard and the rest lots of work but doable, except for 5 which should be plain easy.
8

Do you want a career in music, or are you thinking you might want to do grad school for music? Or do you see it as a sideline? Alternatively what do you see yourself doing with math/statistics.

I am all for “doing what you love” in undergrad and if you love to sing, go for it, and enjoy it regardless of outcome. In that case, I would go for the BM. Double degree in other words.

On the other hand, if you want to graduate and get to work and want to sing for the rest of you life, but not make it a career, you could do lessons (1/2 hour I know, maybe you could supplement privately), ensembles, and a few theory classes and take it from there.

You don’t really know if you will be accepted into the BM program or how other auditions (if you did the BA route) will go so that makes it hard to plan.

You don’t have a lot of experience as yet so it is also hard to make a decision for that reason. You probably should just go ahead and try some music classes, some lessons and then decide.

Any chance you could do a summer program in VP to help you figure things out?

9

I know you must be very smart @CharlotteLetter , but I disagree with @MYOS1634 ; I think the schedule he/she suggests is too much. First, music at this level will be new for you. And music classes are notoriously low-credit hour for the amount of time spent. Theory plus Aural Skills will be 5+ hours of class time per week, plus class piano at 2 hours/week. (You may find theory easy, but some students struggle with the written portion, the ear training, or both!) Diction, also at least 2 classroom hours per week, and choir, which is likely to be a two hour rehearsal/ three times a week. Plus practicing- voice and piano (which you’ve never really had to do/fit in). And language is generally a five day a week course with daily homework. Not to mention your upper level Stats seminar. And work, too? Personally, I would not suggest the additional language class. Not your first term on campus. If you find things too easy, you can ramp up second term. And I would consult an advisor in the Music Department right away about the lessons dilemma; i can’t imagine that if you start out with the BM level lessons, and later change your mind (dropping to a BA or minor), that those lessons won’t count for your degree program. (Obviously, check this carefully and get it in writing.) During my University days, I knew several heavy science majors who switched to math in order to double degree in music (BS/BA). It’s hard.

10

@dramasopranomom : Charlotte has been on campus for 3 years now, which is how she’s almost completed two majors and a minor. I know 18 credits is a lot and the music classes will be a lot despite the credits, but with a high level of French, some basics, and good aptitude, Italian 101 should not be difficult to add.
@CharlotteLetter : Do go and see someone in the Music department on Monday, make an appointment to discuss your situation.

11

I apologize if I misunderstood @MYOS1634 , but in our area, “dual credit” refers to college credit given for classes taken at/through a specialized high school program. Being a full time Freshman on a college campus is to my mind a very different experience, and presents particular challenges and opportunities for growth both academically and otherwise. @CharlotteLetter, undoubtedly you can handle a heavy academic load! It isn’t often, however, that students begin a BM or BA Music program with a history of no private instruction. Music is very different to other majors in this regard; most music students have been studying diligently for several or even many years, including attending specialized summer programs. I think your goals are attainable! An appointment with an advisor or counseling in the Music Department is certainly the best way to begin. I’d also suggest a trial lesson with one or more of the top end vocal faculty at UNM; they are in the best position to tell you a.) if you’d likely qualify for admission to the BM program and b.) which course of study they recommend as right for you.

12

^ You’re right, I had forgotten high schools also offer DE classes and indeed these are very different from college classes taken in campus! And indeed in that case I’d recommend 14-15 credits only because as you say it’s very different.
However it’s not the case here (Charlotte is already taking graduate level classes in math/stats and has been a student at the University for a while so she won’t have to adapt to the classes although she’ll need to adapt to life on campus of course.)

13

Can the BM be completed in less than 8 semesters because of ensemble requirements?

14

@dramasopranomom @MYOS1634

First, that proposed schedule is slightly wrong - I would also need

  1. Vocal ensemble (a few hours per week) - 1 credit
  2. Concert music (1 hr/week)

Which would come out to 19 credits. I will not take above 18, as my scholarship only covers 15-18 and I think I’d be overloaded. However, if I aim for a BM, I’ll take that schedule minus French (16 credits), possibly plus PE (17 credits), and take French the following year. I’ll pick up Italian and German at some point over 4 years if I do BM, but I’m not likely to take either in the next year. The Stats course shouldn’t be too bad, and I may not work in the fall semester as I should have enough savings to tide me until spring.

No, I don’t have a secondary instrument, nor do I plan to. All music majors (BM) need to prove piano proficiency by the end of sophomore year (hence the required Group Piano) - I’ll probably skip the first piano course (for non-piano majors) as I can play okay (simple two-hand melodies and I’m so-so at sight-reading simple folk tunes).

@compmom

I know careers in music are very hard, and it’s hard to see myself in one or in grad school simply because I’m not very good (although I love singing). Presumably, majoring in music and devoting around 75% of my college years to it would really help me improve. Auditions for voice lesson placement are at the start of the semester - the coordinator of vocal studies said they’re for “placement” (so, not admission I assume). Admission for a student as a music major comes as a sophomore, after freshman coursework has been passed and the primary voice instructor indicates the student is ready to concentrate in voice. I will talk to my choir director tomorrow or Tuesday about the chance of me actually auditioning into the lessons for music majors.

I also realize that the vast majority of college musicians have been musicians for quite a while. It’s just… well, over the past year I’ve improved almost as much as one of my friends in choir, who’s taken lessons, has. And I’ve saved up enough for around 8 private lessons with my director (who is also a teacher) in the summer to prepare for the audition. I am nowhere near as polished as almost all BM or BA music students, but I’m willing to work hard to get there.

Who should I make an appointment with in the music department? My possible options (I don’t know if any or all of them would see me):

  • Coordinator of Vocal Studies (also the main studio instructor)
  • College of Fine Arts Music Advisor
  • Department of Music Faculty Undergraduate Advisor

This week, everyone seems to be busy (based on their online advisement schedules) and next week is spring break, so I will probably wait until the following week to meet with someone.

@ClarinetDad16 The BM requires 8 credits of ensemble participation, each ensemble being 1 credit, so normally it would take 4 years. It is possible to double up on ensembles, although I don’t know why I would want to - there’s no way that I could accelerate the rest of the music program and graduate in less than 4 years.

15

@CharlotteLetter there are several examples of FAMOUS opera singers (Dolora Zajick being just one, and I believe she’s also from New Mexico) who pursued Undergraduate degrees outside of music and only really found their talent and passion during those Undergraduate years! So do not be dismayed or feel you are too late to the game!! I would suggest making appointments with the Coordinator of Vocal Studies (you can broach the idea of a sample lesson at your meeting) AND the D of M Undergraduate Advisor. Each can likely give you great information about different things… it sounds like you have time, since you couldn’t even be admitted to the degree program until this time next year or later, so don’t worry! I just think you’ll have so much more accurate information after those meetings, and you’ll be very ready to proceed next Fall.

16

@dramasopranomom Thanks for the advice! I will try to make appointments with both (for after spring break - this week I have three exams and shouldn’t spend too much time on this).

Also, I wanted to note something you mentioned before. Fitting in choir wouldn’t be new, as I’m in the advanced group in my girl choir, which meets 2 hours, twice a week, and I have to commute 45 minutes each way for that. One of the UNM choirs meets 2 hrs/week (the non-auditioned one, which counts for ensemble credit if I don’t get into any of the others), while the other primary choir meets 1.5 hrs, twice a week. I will audition for the choirs and will likely be placed in one of these - more than likely the non-auditioned one.

And I do practice - piano not so much, as I primarily use it to practice voice, but if I start out in either Group Piano I or II, I’ll have plenty of time to adjust, as I already know and occasionally practice above those levels. I practice singing, although sometimes I tell myself not to - without a teacher I am probably practising bad technique (although I try to be aware, I probably am not). Usually I practice 2-4 hrs/day, 5-6 days/week. Obviously more would be required with a heavy music load, but I’d also be taking fewer academic classes.

Language is a 3 day a week course with daily homework, but I’m not terribly concerned about it. French isn’t very hard, and since I only need the 1st semester for Italian and German and already know some German, I’m not worried. All language 101 course at UNM are formatted exactly the same, and the free tutors for the romance and Germanic languages are outstanding. The stats course would be pretty challenging, but the professor is very flexible and fair.

I am guessing that I’ll struggle with ear training and diction far more than written theory.

17

Often people have a teacher to discuss this with. Can you do that?

18

@compmom A teacher in what context? Music teacher? I plan to talk to my director (I don’t have a voice teacher). I don’t know any of the UNM music faculty.

19

Yes, your director as well as the professors suggested upthread. You’ll be fine :). Good luck on the three exams!

20

I thought you had a voice teacher. That would be helpful in your situation, if only a few times, for evaluation and advice. I know it’s expensive but it might be worth it.