<p>Can someone rank difficulty of admission at these schools?
CSUN
CSULB
UC Santa Barbara
UCLA
UC Irvine
Manhattan School of Music
Eastman School of Music
UT Austin
NYU
Boston University
San Francisco Conservatory</p>
<p>From scanning your prior posts, I’m assuming you’re attempting a music transfer in violin performance. It adds another dimension to the process. Familiarize yourself with the transfer specific requirements for music majors at each institution. They vary. Slots available to transfers may be included in each cycle’s pool, or they may be allocated separately. Specific past experience with faculty may help ease the process, it may not.</p>
<p>Manhattan arguably would be the toughest; Eastman, UT Austin, San Francisco, BU are all quality programs. fiddlefrog may be able to shed some light on the transfer process at BU.</p>
<p>I can’t speak to the other west coast schools.</p>
<p>UC2008, you’ve asked this and similar questions previously. You should find some help if you are willing to review previous responses. Also, there may be people who can give you more specific info or suggestions if you posted something about yourself - background and playing level, current program, desired program (BA, BM, Music Ed, etc), professional intention, etc. </p>
<p>The specific question above asks for a comparison of apples and oranges. The conservatories (Manhattan, Eastman and San Fran Conservatory) will place great importance on your playing as demonstrated in an audition. Your college grades (I believe you hope to transfer??) will likely be considered more carefully by the universities than at the conservatories.</p>
<p>It’s not clear to me that you have considered your own personal criteria for choosing potential schools for yourself. Perhaps if you would let people know what sort of environment and considerations are important to you - for example, cost or teacher or urban or whatever - you would get some helpful advice.</p>
<p>PS Violadad, my experience (for what it’s worth - perhaps nothing!! - and with the caveat that things are always changing!) is that Eastman is a harder admit for violins than Manhattan.</p>
<p>fiddlestix, I can’t and won’t disagree. Programs are ever evolving, and as faculty changes, audition pool mix, and financial factors are considered what is true one year is not necessarily the case the next.</p>
<p>And what is “right” for one is not always “right” for another.</p>
<p>Don’t know about violin specifically, but at Boston University, the strength of the audition will be the paramount thing in music admissions. But yes, there is a core course requirement by the university so the student has to be in the ballpark for academic admissions as well.</p>
<p>I’m currently a major in music ed/violin at UCLA. The level at UCLA is getting alot higher. Alot of people choose UCLA over conservatories now because the faculty is a lot stronger and its alot cheaper than going to a conservatory.I’m very dissastifed with the music ed program; students do not get to take lessons with professors and do not get to participate in chamber music program. Also, older ed kids can’t even play the violin at all. So I’ve always played the violin all my life, and I got into UCLA by chance and then after first quarter of freshman year I decided to major in music and I want to be a violinist for life. And I got serious in college about music. Now I practice about 6 or 7 hours a day; in high shcool I practiced about 2 hours a day. I know I will apply to a number of schools as a transfer and to use my sophomore jury as my audition at UCLA.
Btw, I’m considering applying to Eastman as a double major in performance/music ed. Does that make a difference in admissions?
Just a few major repertoire highlights i’ve played.
- Lalo Symphonie espagnole
- Bruch concerto in G minor
- Mozart concertos in G, D, and A (currently working on)
- Going to start Dvorak pretty soon
According to one of the faculty at CSULB, i would be approximately in teh top 25-30% category range</p>
<p>to add to that list of schools is CalArts and CIM.
As for financial issues, I’m currently paying out of state for UCLA, so its about teh same price for every school</p>
<p>Again, I can’t speak to the CA schools due to lack of specific knowledge. Some general and specific thoughts on music ed and performance can be had by searching my past posts. (son was a dual perf/ed candidate who opted out of the ed at the eleventh hour, as he could not envision himself within a k-12 setting).</p>
<p>Some general thoughts: many programs differentiate and separate faculty and ensemble opportunities for music ed and performance candidates; others do not. It is important to research institution and department (as well as specific faculty) stands on a combined approach. There is no music ed path at San Fran Con. NYU is noted for it’s music ed rep, but it is expensive, and historically very tight with both need and talent based aid. The program at Manhattan is a Masters level program, in conjunction with Columbia Teacher’s College. BU’s is also a Masters level program; to the best of my knowledge there is no undergrad music ed degree program. The program at CIM is actually in conjunction with Case Western, and you would need to research the relationship between the two. Some agree with the combined approach, others do not. It is important to realize why you are considering both, and would you be happy with either. The argument is that many “failed” performers make terrible teachers. The corollary is that many of the best educators have had their feet in both camps. It’s also important to distinguish pedagogy from instruction within a k-12 setting, which is what music ed is designed to achieve.</p>
<p>As thumper1 mentions, the main emphasis in a music admit is the audition. However for music ed, academic stats do play a role as well. </p>
<p>Music ed is a highly structured and sequenced curriculum (as you probably already know). Most combined ed/perf undergrad degrees are structured as a five year curriculum, so there is also the BM perf/MMus Ed path or vice-versa to consider, which can also be a five (sometimes six) year pursuit. The option is offered at a number of institutions. Many feel this is the best option, as it allows a student to determine their path and sort out what they want.</p>
<p>As a transfer, you may well lose some music credits, potentially starting from scratch in the theory and ed sequences. This is program specific, but also quite common. Additionally, most institutions mandate that 60 credits be done “in residence” to confer a degree. Consider that added time equates to added costs.</p>
<p>I can’t talk about specific schools, but I agree with what Fiddle and others have said, you need to figure out what you want to do. When you talk about music ed, do you see yourself being an elementary/high school music teacher, or as a violin pedagogue (there is a big difference, for reasons too many to list here)? If so, then being a music ed double major may not make sense. Do you really want to head into violin performance and like many peformers teach as well? If so, it could be the music ed would be superfluous to that (and I am not saying it is, I am saying what you want to do will probably influence your decision process). </p>
<p>For example, If you see your path as being a school music teacher as your primary vocation with performance as a ‘second’ part of your career, then the music ed second major might make sense, where you teach in a school and then freelance or play in local performing groups, etc. If you think you are serious enough about playing the violin that you can be good enough to have performance as your primary focus, like becoming a member of a fairly high level orchestra program, some gig’ing, and having private violin students (or teaching violin at some sort of music school) then the music ed degree might not make sense (and I wonder if it wouldn’t be a distraction to do a music ed degree while trying to do performance; knowing the rigors only too well of those heading towards performance, I can’t see how it couldn’t). I will add that looking at your repertoire and the fact that you are now self described getting serious, if you are looking towards getting into violin performance at a relatively high level, that you may need to focus on the performance to be able to have a hope of making it at that level, based on what I have seen of the violin world these days (or Viola for that matter, if you choose that path). Others may have done both may have a direct experience with this, mine is simply based on what I know of the violin world and how it functions and is not gospel.</p>
<p>UC2008,</p>
<p>I sent you a PM.</p>
<p>You need to check into music education requirements everywhere you want to apply. From my experience…once a music ed major is doing student observations and student teaching, participation in ensembles and chamber music IS limited due to time needed for the education part of the program. And at a LOT of schools, music education students do not study with the applied faculty…they study with grad students (who, btw can sometimes be VERY good).</p>
<p>If you are interested in performing, perhaps staying at UCLA and following that track would be good for undergrad. If you want to each, you can get your teaching credential in a masters program.</p>
<p>if you really want to teach, you may find that many schools are similar to UCLA in that music education majors have a different ensemble and playing requirement than performance majors.</p>
<p>Unless something has changed, Boston University has an undergrad music education program…or at least I think it does. DS knew students who were music ed majors (and he didn’t know a lot of grad students his first year there). At BU, the music ed students do not play in as many ensembles as the music performance majors.</p>
<p>thump, you’re right, I’m not. BU does have a music ed BM. I missed it in the initial perusal, and when I searched within the music website for music ed, whatever reason, no info came up.</p>
<p>My error. Just goes to show you cannot rely on taking anything at face value, including the advice offered here.</p>
<p>Feel free to headsmack me. :)</p>
<p>Violadad…this just shows this OP that he MUST really look carefully at programs. You (and many of the others who regularly post here) find most of the information easily but sometimes, it’s not all that easy to find. </p>
<p>This kid wants to major in music ed…but he wants to perform also. In my experience, the requirements of the music education degree are very intense, and the ensemble part is the first thing to “go” for these students. During student teaching, for example, most music ed students do NOT participate (and are not required to) in an ensemble at all. They just can’t do it.</p>
<p>Students who are performance majors (where my kid applied and went) were REQUIRED to participate in four full years of large ensembles AND chamber ensembles. The music ed majors did not have the same requirement especially as they progressed to upperclass status. </p>
<p>This OP says he is practicing 7 hours a day now. I can tell you…there are not enough hours in the day to practice seven hours, student teach, prepare lessons, be in ensembles, bathe, eat and sleep. Just not enough time.</p>
<p>I would suggest that the OP examine their priorities carefully before making a school change. I would also suggest that they carefully examine EACH school for their requirements.</p>
<p>In some programs (Hartt is one) required courses for music ed majors begin during the sophomore year…so transfering into a program loke that as a junior would be problematic.</p>
<p>Actually thump, the Hartt mus ed curriculum begins in freshman year. There are a couple of intro prereq courses in the mus ed curriculum that if not taken in year 1 can wreak havoc on the rest of the schedule. There’s also the freshman partnership, typically done during fall and spring semester which is also a graduation/degree requirement. But I agree, the ensemble and other ipo requirements can be a bit less stringent for straight ed majors… I think typically the chamber requirement drops dramatically, and the orchestral requirement is six rather than the 8 semesters for performance majors. Again it varies by institution for dual discipline candidates, but in many dual programs the performance criteria take precedence and thus the chamber, other ipo and orchestral requirements remain to the “higher” performance standard. Partly explains the reason why many of the dual pursuit programs mandate the fifth year, necessary timewise to fulfill both sets of requirements, including observational offsite work and student teaching.</p>
<p>I meant 25-30% range at csulb. I know I can’t handle a big class of k-12 students but I can teach privately. And music ed classes take away a lot of practice time on the future so it’s not a good idea. I also believe that to do both performance and teach in life u need to have experience in both.
Also at ucla, I play in the intense music major orchestra which rehearses 6 hrs per week with additional rehearsals and at least 4 performances per quarter. Many we majors opt to be in the non music major orchestra. I find it distressing that many ed majors are not motivated.<br>
It is possible to practice 6-7 hrs. I get up at6 am during school days and start practicing by 6:40 and practice between classes.
Thanks for the input everyone, I am very unfamiliar with the college process for music majors as I previously sent ok CDs instead of auditioning live.
As for nyu, I was also admitted there preciously for music ed.</p>
<p>And I do agree some grad students are very good. My current teacher went to Paris conservatory</p>
<p>UC…I never said it was impossible to practice 6-7 hours a day…I said it was impossible to do so WHILE STUDENT TEACHING. Not enough hours in the day.</p>
<p>I’m very confused about your goals. It sounds like UCLA does a fine job with its performance majors. Can’t you just switch from music ed to performance and stay there? It sounds from your posts that you really don’t want to teach in a public school system but rather want to do private instruction or something similar while also having time to practice and perform. That being the case, it seems like you would be transfering to a performance based program (which you say UCLA does well…so why the need to transfer?). But then you keep mentioning music education (why?? if that is not what you want to do or intend to do).</p>
<p>Am I confused…yep.</p>
<p>Where are you an instate resident? Have you looked at programs within your state at public universities where your education would not be as costly as OOS tuition at a UC?</p>
<p>UCLA has a very high requirement for GE classes; music majors often find it hard to practice alot. In fact, I’m the violinist who practices the most. It offers a liberal arts degree while I want a more music-based curriculum. I’ve heard that music majors at other schools such as USC, with a BM curriculum have more time to practice and don’t have so many classes to go to.
I mention music ed because I feel that even if I want to teach as a part of my life, I will need to take music ed classes to understand more deeply how to teach.
And no, I’m not an in-state resident anywhere because I’m an American citizen who grew up in Asia.
And to add to that, the music professors at UCLA don’t particularly like me and since I applied as a music ed major in the first place its not easy to switch.</p>
<p>You do not have to have a music education degree to teach private instrument lessons. You DO have to have a good solid understanding of the sequence of instruction for your instrument, good pedagogy, and good interpersonal skills. I do not agree with you that you NEED a music ed degree to teach private lessons.</p>
<p>You have Boston University on your list. They have a core course requirement also…I believe it is 8 courses that are not music courses. It might be 10. BU has very rigorous course requirements and the courses are challenging. You would have to fulfill those requirement. Most university music programs have academic course requirements within the university. Conservatory programs typically have their own academic courses within the conservatory. </p>
<p>If you go the music education route…it is my opinion that regardless of where you go to school, your “practice time” will be reduced due to the rigor of the music education college curriculum. Lots of courses, requirements for off campus school involvement, student teaching, etc.</p>
<p>CIM does have a music ed degree in conjunction with Case Western, but requirements for admission are a bit different- contact the admissions office at CIM for answers to that. The string program there has gotten a big boost from the addition of Joel Smirnoff, formerly of Julliard, as President. I have been told, by violin majors, that their numbers have grown greatly and that there is little room for anyone else, so the number of admits in violin performance may be dropping over the next few years- but that is just hearsay as of now. CIM has just updated their website and added a paragraph about transfer students to their FAQ page- here is the link:
[Cleveland</a> Institute of Music](<a href=“http://www.cim.edu/colAdmisFaqs.php#gen]Cleveland”>http://www.cim.edu/colAdmisFaqs.php#gen)</p>
<p>I agree with Thumper. I only know voice teachers, but none of the voice teachers I know with private studios have music ed degrees.</p>
<p>UC2008, from my perspective you hold a number of misconceptions. </p>
<p>First, I agree with the others that have said that you do not need a music education degree to teach the violin in a private studio, non-public school, community music school, or other types of non publicly supported venue. You do need the skills thumper1 cites.</p>
<p>Secondly, you must realize that purpose of a music ed degree is to provide the level of training required to obtain teaching certification/licensure to allow you to teach music or a sub-specialty within a public (read as state regulated) k-12 school. Each state mandates their own parameters for certification, and typically a college/university within a particular state’s borders designs their specific curriculum to meet that state’s certification minimums. Having said that, it is usually not that difficult to re-certify in State B if a teacher is already holding credentials from State A. </p>
<p>Typically, the instrumental music ed curriculum will include music theory, history, aural skills training, piano/keyboard skills, studio work and private instruction, ensemble obligations; specific coursework in instructional methods for your primary, intro work and teaching methodologies for other instruments, some voice and choral methods, basic conducting skills. A good part of the curriculum will entail general and educational psychology, music cognition, general and music specific teaching philosophies and methodologies, observational site work and teaching practicums, and a culminating student teaching experience. Additionally, there are state mandated academic requirements for all educators which normally include intro courses in both world and US history, a selection from the other social sciences centered around women/minority issues, a lab science, a math and a health course.</p>
<p>A number will choose to go the combined performance/ed route, and the path has its pros and cons. Some are unsure of skill level, and use the experience to assess potential for achieving pro performing status, some see the ed as a safety in terms of job/financial stability, some find they are not cut out to be educators, and others are quite simply torn between the two. Some are steered to it by parents. The choice is personal, but should only be undertaken within an institution (and with an instructor and advisor) that actively supports this type of pursuit.</p>
<p>There are a number of previous discussions, most found within double major or music ed threads should you wish to read further. My son’s experioence is capsuled here <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/558603-what-can-i-do-music-ed-minor.html?highlight=minor[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/558603-what-can-i-do-music-ed-minor.html?highlight=minor</a></p>
<p>You mention the differences in the BA versus BM. The BA is typically a 75% distribution in liberal arts coursework, 25 % in music areas; the percentages are normally reversed for the BM, 75% of coursework being music centered. Therein lies the rub. Some call the BM a technical or professional degree, much like a BS as opposed to the broader BA. Check UCLA’s undergrad handbook and compare the performance and ed BA course distribution with those of other institutions offering the degrees in the BM variant, and you will quickly see the differences.</p>
<p>You sound unhappy with the program for a number of reasons. Most institutions do allow a music ed admit to audition into the performance track. It may or may not be easy. If you feel the BA is not enough musically, by all means look for transfer opportunities, but do your homework. Your school selection is all over the board, and contains a few that do not even offer music ed as a degree track. The addition of the UC’s and CS’s may best serve you in credit transfer as most state programs readily accept within system credits. Make sure they will work in terms of both private instructor and overall program. Violin is extremely competitive, and the success rates for transfers into performance tracks is a function of both luck, skill level, and choosing the right instructor/institution. </p>
<p>As for music ed, think seriously about your reasons. If you have the desire to be an educator within a k-12 setting, by all means go for it; if your goal is to teach music privately, then consider pedagogy, rather than ed, which is geared to studio, instrument technique and repertoire instruction methodology rather than large group/classroom instruction. There are a number of BM programs offering dual tracks in performance/pedagogy, as well as MM programs.</p>