Music Education

<p>Hi, I'm new here and I have a buncha questions.
First off, I'm a junior who has played the flute since 4th grade, and I've had lessons for about 7 years.</p>

<p>I know music ed is easier to get in than performance (correct?), but what should my academic scores be like? I'm not looking at the top schools, but decent ones with good music ed programs. When I'm comparing schools, how will I know which are good and how difficult it is to get in?</p>

<p>And this might be a silly question, but I was talking to my friend and she said she thought you don't have to audition for music ed. But I thought that you do, right? Or does it depend on the school?</p>

<p>As far as colleges I've been looking at, Temple is probably near the top on my list (I'm from PA) but does anyone know about Frost school of music in Miami? (Difficulty to get in, quality of school?) Feel free to give me any suggestions.</p>

<p>Thanks so much guys, any help is super appreciated!</p>

<p>Oh, and is it unheard of to major in education for both music AND another major subject? Like math? (I'm thinking about teaching high school, possibly middle school). How are the classes like/how many years would I have to study?</p>

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<p>I’m pretty sure that in nearly all cases you have to audition for music ed programs. </p>

<p>If you wanna save some money, you should look into other PA state schools, i.e. Penn State and West Chester. They aren’t exactly outstanding schools for performance but they both have a reputation for producing good music teachers, plus paying in-state tuition is always nice. Where in PA are you from?</p>

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<p>Oh yeah! I was looking at Penn State also. However, I really want to go somewhere away from here, preferably warm. (You see, I’m originally from Hawaii…and I miss the weather like heck) In state tuition is certainly nice though, so it’s definitely on the list. </p>

<p>I’m about 20 mins away from Philly.</p>

<p>Thanks for the quick reply :)</p>

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<p>That’s neat — I’m from Bucks County which is about 30 minutes away from Philly. As for your other questions:</p>

<p>It is a general rule of thumb that it is a bit easier to pass an audition if you’re going for education and not performance. However, there are other things you may have to do to get accepted for a music ed program; for example you might be expected to complete an interview with the faculty (mainly to discuss why you want to become a music teacher), or write an essay detailing similar topics, etc. </p>

<p>Standards for academics depend entirely upon the school. Schools like Temple and West Chester don’t require very competitive standardized test scores/GPAs, etc, but Miami is a relatively more difficult school to get into academically. You can find out this kind of info pretty quickly on collegeboard.com. </p>

<p>And as for double majoring in both music education and secondary education, it will probably be extremely difficult to do. I’ve never heard of anyone who has done that so I can’t say for sure, but double majoring (when one of your majors is music-related) tends to be difficult or impossible to do.</p>

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<p>I’m sure it’s impossible to double major in music education and another subject, but it’s possible to double major in music performance and another subject. I know a lot of people who have done that. Music education has a lot of credits and requires more time because of all the instruments you would need to learn and practice.</p>

<p>If you know the state where you eventually want to teach, it can be helpful to study at a school in that state for a couple of reasons. First, the school will be in conformance with all the requirements that you will need to obtain your teaching license there. Second, the local elementary and high schools will likely be familiar with the school and the quality of their graduates and may be more likely to hire someone from a local program if they have had good results with prior graduates.</p>

<p>The University of Miami will certainly be a tougher academic admit than Temple and will also probably be a bit tougher on the audition. Like Temple, Frost is a very highly respected music school and one that attracts applications from a lot of very good hopeful performance majors. As you obviously know, the weather and proximity to the beach make it more of a destination than Temple in North Philly.</p>

<p>If you are interested in staying in Pennsylvania, you might also have a look at Susquehanna University. While their listed tuition is higher than Temple and the public schools wascos mentioned, it is less expensive than Miami and they do offer some good financial aid that might make the price competitive. Academically, the range of GPA’s and test scores they admit is probably similar to Temple’s while I would guess that the audition is a little less competitive there than at Temple.</p>

<p>The music building was refurbished a few years ago and is quite nice. They attract a fairly wide range of music students, so you can expect that there will be some very good players there, but you do not have to be already playing at a conservatory level to pass the audition. I do not know much about the current flute teacher there, so some research and a sample lesson would be good ideas.</p>

<p>Some other schools that come to mind in warm weather states would be:
Appalachian State
Arizona State
Baylor U
Belmont U
Cal State Fullerton
Cal State Northridge
Chapman U
Columbus State U
East Carolina U
Florida State
Furman U
Kennesaw State
Louisiana State
Loyola (New Orleans)
Northern Arizona U
Samford U
San Diego State
Shenandoah University
Southern Methodist U
Texas Christian U
U Alabama
U Arizona
U Central Florida
U Florida
U Georgia
U New Mexico
U North Carolina
University of Redlands
U Tennessee</p>

<p>I am more familiar with performance programs than music ed. I know all of these schools have very good music departments and some form of music ed, but you will have to do some research on whether the music ed program is the right one for you.</p>

<p>In Pennsylvania, you might also check out Duquesne.</p>

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<p>First, I just have to ask - Are you thinking of music education because you Really like children and love music and really want to teach children music? If not, please consider another route. Music education will focus on teaching K-12, not playing your flute. It should not be pursued because it is a backup or safety choice or because it is an easier admission… Students deserve teachers whose first love is to teach. </p>

<p>If indeed education is what you really love then I agree with BassDad. You want a program that will help you get a job in the area where you want to teach. Job placement is all about the network and many hiring decision in education are done based on the knowledge of those in the local programs. That is not to say you can’t go somewhere else and be hired, it just may be a little harder. It is something you will want to ask when you are considering schools. Where do their students find jobs? Is that where you want to be?</p>

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<p>Middle and High school teachers are specialized to teach a specific subject. As others have said, with the course schedule, it would be nearly impossible, but it would also be impractical. A school wouldn’t hire you to teach music and math. Also, with MusEd, check out the school curriculum. We knocked a school off my daughter’s list because it required marching band and orchestral classes in addition to the choral/strings requirements (and took 5 years for a BMus).</p>

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<p>Plumeria, you’ve gotten good advice so far. Here are a few additional threads to get you started. There is a lot of info here.</p>

<p>These are meant more as general background than for specific school recommendations, but you can find other music ed threads by doing a title search (show threads) and using “music education” and “music ed” as your keywords. There’s about 5 pages of titled threads between the two.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063856089-post4.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063856089-post4.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/795610-specific-schools-music-education-programs.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/795610-specific-schools-music-education-programs.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/693563-music-education-degrees-searching-college.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/693563-music-education-degrees-searching-college.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/469377-music-education.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/469377-music-education.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It MAY be possible to combine a liberal arts second major with a music ed degree or a secondary ed program, as there could be a good deal of common coursework within the “ed” curriculum. Music ed degree paths are highly sequenced and structured, and are time and credit intensive, and a lot will be contingent upon the institution’s philosophy regarding dual pursuit within or across disciplines. Knowing the differences between the BA,BS and BM degree paths may give you some options, and note that some programs will lead to initial teaching certification, and some will not. </p>

<p>A few related threads:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/697348-music-education-major.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/697348-music-education-major.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/691308-music-education-dilemma.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/691308-music-education-dilemma.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Music ed applicants are typically held to the institution’s baseline academic minimums for admission (which can sometimes be “flexed” for performance applicants). The audition bar may be a bit lower for music ed majors than for performance, but a number of schools will hold music ed and performance candidates to the same standard.</p>

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<p>wascos: Oh that’s cool! I know where that is.</p>

<p>starlessyoru: Ah, I didn’t think it would be possible to do the double major. I was just thinking about it cause I was worried about finding a job after, in case I couldn’t find a job teaching music I could teach math for a while. But I think that’s out of the picture now.</p>

<p>BassDad: I haven’t really thought much about where I wanted to teach yet. Would it be a lot more difficult to get a license/job in a different state than where I studied? What would be the obstacles I’d have to go through?</p>

<p>Thank you so much for that list of schools, I’ll start checking them out! And I’ve looked up the UMiami admissions - I think I have a small chance, but they’re a bit low. :s</p>

<p>Singersmom07: Yes, I do really like teaching and children. I’ve always wanted to be a teacher of some sort, but not really sure of which subject. Even in middle school I always loved helping/tutoring my peers with their math problems. I’m currently teaching 2 kiddies the flute and I think I really do like teaching. </p>

<p>As for location, I have basically the same response as I wrote for BassDad^. </p>

<p>BeezMom: Ah, thanks for the advice! I’ll definitely be looking into the curriculum.</p>

<p>violadad: Thanks for the links! After thinking about it, I feel like it would be too difficult to double major even if it were possible…</p>

<p>Thank you guys for all your advice, it was all really helpful.
I have another question, though. Do most colleges accept transfers? Or do music ed majors usually not transfer? </p>

<p>When one studies music ed, does it focus on teaching for every grade? Or do I have to choose which grade I teach, and study for that? (I’m not sure if I was clear- let me know if I wasn’t)</p>

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<p>The requirements are similar but not quite identical from one state to the next. I am not familiar with the procedures for re-licensing when a teacher moves from one state to another, either before or after starting their career. Perhaps someone who has some first-hand experience with that will chime in.</p>

<p>Most colleges accept transfer students, but the real question is, if you are accepted, how many of your credits from the first college will be accepted by the one you want to transfer to. That is highly variable depending on the subject and the two schools involved. Some colleges accept only a small number of transfers, so it can often be a lot harder to transfer into a school than it is to be accepted as a freshman at the same school. In other cases, it is easier. If you are looking for statistics, try searching for “Common Data Set” on the college web site or see the thread <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/76444-links-common-data-sets-posted-colleges.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/76444-links-common-data-sets-posted-colleges.html&lt;/a&gt; here on CC. You will have to jump to the last page or the last page but one for the current list of data sets by school. In subjects like music, it is not at all unusual to need an extra semester or sometimes even two to complete a degree after a transfer.</p>

<p>Different schools handle admission to the music ed major in different ways. At some, you audition directly to the program as an applicant before freshman year and start in the music ed department right away. At others, you have to complete two or three semesters of course work before declaring a major and then audition into the music ed program generally at the beginning of the first or second semester in sophomore year. A few even prefer to do a five year program that results in a BM in performance after the fourth year and a Master’s degree in teaching at the end of the program. Many elementary and high schools that hire music teachers with a bachelor’s degree stipulate that they must earn a Master’s degree within a certain number of years in any event, so that might be another path you want to consider.</p>

<p>Many music ed curricula seem to offer classes that address the needs of different age groups. It may depend on the school whether you take all of those classes or get to choose from among them. You need to really get into the details of the curriculum to find out. This kind of information is sometimes buried pretty deep in the school website, often as part of an online catalog or online bulletin. This is time well spent, however, because it gives you a good sense of the differences between one school and another and gives you the start of a basis for deciding among your acceptances down the road.</p>

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<p>Most music ed programs we’ve looked at certify K-12, but check specifics. For example: TCNJ (right across the river) has a music Ed program that certifies for K-12, but they also have Elementary Education with Music, which is more of general teaching degree. (Read the fine print!) On college transfers: be careful. Music schools are pretty proprietary and don’t seem to want to take credits from other music institutions.</p>

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<p>

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<p>As far as I know, Music Ed is a K-12 certification everywhere. That means when you graduate, you could be hired at any grade level. Usually, you teach elementary, middle or high school. However in some districts, you may teach all three, or any combination. It is very common for a music teacher to “travel” between schools in the district. </p>

<p>Also, when you go college for music ed, you will choose the “path” of music ed you will take: vocal/choral (often combined with general music), orchestral or band. However, you will have the same certification in music ed no matter which path you choose.</p>

<p>ETA: Wow, cross-posted with everyone!</p>

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<p>Yes, you are certified for K-12, but some schools have individual classes that address needs of specific student populations (for example K-2, 3-6, Junior high/intermediate school, high school, special ed, gifted/talented) and it may be up to the student to choose from among these offerings if they have a particular interest.</p>

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<p>Not anywhere near an expert at music ed and such, but from experience with the various schools around here, talking to music teachers and so forth, there are generally several tracks:</p>

<p>1)Primary school (K-5) vocal/basic music education. Generally they teach some basic music, learn to play the recorder, do the winter/spring concerts. </p>

<p>2)Primary/middle school instrumental (some districts have seperate teachers for middle school and elementary school, round here lot of them teach at both). Teach basic instrument instruction, lead orchestra/band </p>

<p>3)Middle school choral/general music. Much like primary, but they also might do some more specialized choruses and such, teach more formal vocal music as well as general music. </p>

<p>4)High school choral. In my experience, teach general chorus plus more specialized groups, and some vocal teaching akin to instrumental (depends on the school)</p>

<p>5)High school instrumental. Instrument lessons, often marching band, orchestra/band programs, maybe some music training as well (some music theory, sometimes music appreciation).</p>

<p>4)High School instrumental</p>

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<p>Posters who emphasize checking with individual states are right on. Some of what has been stated does not apply in specific states. Since the OP mentioned warmer climates, I’m going to chime in about California. In CA, a music ed undergraduate degree does NOT result in a certification to teach music in the public schools. In CA, certification is ALWAYS a post graduate, 5th year -plus program, for any subject, including elementary classroom. One cannot do student teaching without having completed their degree first. This is very important to understand. After 4 years, you still have to attend a college of education, whether or not your undergrad is in music ed, performance, composition, BA, BM, BFA, whatever. The post grad requirements for the credential usually take one year plus a semester of student teaching, especially if you try to do this with the public universities, the so-called “state flagships.” In any case, it’s quite simple to do the performance degree (in any state), and take a few music ed courses as electives (or not, just study the books), and pass the state subject test, and still go on and get certification.</p>

<p>You can attend a “state-approved” music education program, but the ONLY thing that will do is waive the requirement to take the subject matter standardized tests for music. For some people that is a big deal, but for most hard working music students, this is unimportant, especially since these approved programs are not necessarily the best music schools–at all. To see a list of these approved programs, consult the CTC website. Anyone who has gone through a good music ed program in another state, example, Eastman, Crane, NU, WCC or numerous others will find this test to be a piece of cake. And, you will have another advantage. You will have finished student teaching and hold teacher certification in the state of NY or wherever, WHICH IS TRANSFERABLE to California, with some additional requirements that are less onerous that what you’d have to do if you do the whole thing in CA. You have to pass the subject test (not hard), and take a few extra courses which you can do during your first year of teaching. So, you can be making money in a teaching job after 4 years, whereas the CA students are still in school. </p>

<p>2nd subjects/degrees: I strongly disagree with the advice given that there is no point in getting a second degree (math, english, spanish, whatever). While you won’t really need the degree, a strong minor will help tremendously in getting your first job. If you know a subject well enough to pass the subject matter competency exams, you can add it to your credential. You do not need to student teach in each subject to be fully qualified to teach that subject in school. Schools most certainly will hire you to teach say, 4 periods of music and one of math. In fact, most administrators will prefer to hire teachers with multiple certifications, as it will vastly simplify their lives as far as staffing. When budget cuts happen, the music teacher can now teach 3 periods of music, and 2 English, instead of having to drop down to two part-time teachers. Also, remember that we are in a deep crisis as far as arts budgets are concerned right now. This will not last forever. In four to five years when our kids are ready to enter the work force, they will likely encounter music programs that have been decimated. Districts that want to build these programs back up will have to start with teachers who are certified in music plus at least one other subject. Example: the school will not have enough students to fill 5 music classes this year, but if you can take a full time job teaching a few periods of music and a few of math, you’ll get a job over anyone else. That second subject does not have to be a major, because with a certain # of credits in a subject you can add a “supplemental authorization” to an existing credential. In a few years, the dynamic music teacher will in fact build up the program so that s/he teaches only music.</p>

<p>Regarding 5-year undergraduate programs of any kind: For salary purposes, all undergraduate degrees are equivalent, be they BA, BM, BFA, BS, or BM/BA. Your salary will be the same. So it’s ideal if you are working on your masters in the 5th year, so that after 5 or six years of college, you will be making A LOT more $ than after 5 years of undergrad. So, from this point of view, get the bachelor’s (maybe performance degree if that is your interest) in 4 years, then get the masters in Music Ed WITH a credential to teach, which has been discussed as a good option for some in other threads. Check posts by uskoolfish, I believe.</p>

<p>Remember that you are hired by the district, not by the school. So, you could start in a less than ideal job where you teach history and music, or drama and music (this is very popular) and then transfer to a different school teaching only music. And if music gets the axe, you will have a job, albeit teaching another subject.</p>

<p>Regarding choral/general/instrumental: Yes, your certification will “qualify” you to teach any music in the school, but of course we know that the choral teacher will not be hired to teach woodwinds, strings, marching band etc. HOWEVER, those musicians who have the skills to do it all are in huge demand, and will always work (example, my DH). If you sing, play clarinet and piano, or violin, or drums, you would do well to keep it up for music ed. If a school can hire one teacher to teach chorus and band, or chorus and orchestra, or band and orchestra, they will. And in California, that is often the case, because there are probably not enough music classes at the school to have full time chorus, band, and orchestra–very sad but true.</p>

<p>These issues may well be true in other states.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to thank sopranomom92 for taking the time to post that incredibly helpful information. We are in CA and, because of the draconian cuts is school budgets, my daughter is seriously questioning her major choice. Music Ed (instrumental) was one of her first thoughts, but now is leaning toward Spanish. She is currently a junior, looking at all of her options.</p>

<p>I also like your optimism about the districts rebuilding their music programs in four to five years. We tuition-payers can only hope so. :)</p>

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<p>Hey everyone. UD is one of my D’s top choices. Interested in getting some opinions on the Music Ed (Instrumental) program. </p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>Wow this is a really old thread but while it’s bumped I was wondering if the different tracks of music education really dictate what kind of job you can get. I’m probably going to end up a piano performance major but all of my schools at this point either have double major programs between the two or certification. Also, would piano restrict me to general music education? I think I’d really enjoy being a high school orchestra director or a professor of music education if I get a DMA/PhD. I’ve been in orchestra since 4th grade, playing some combination of viola, violin and piano and I’d really rather do that than teach elementary school general music. My orchestra teacher told me she thinks I have enough of a string background for the job but I’d like one or more second opinions.</p>

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<p>We know two people (both a few years older than my kids) who went to Delaware. One was a performance major (strings) and is now in graduate school and the other (winds), a music ed major, snagged a teaching position in her hometown. No close relationship, but my understanding is that both found that the program met their needs.</p>

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