"Admissions-savvy" ECs for musicians?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Since all the admissions forums are buzzing about the importance of extracurricular activities, I'd like to ask the knowledgeable community here, in musical section of CC: what do you think of the relative importance of different ECs for the aspiring young musicians? Which ones you or your kids are involved in? How, you think, it could help (or bother ;-)) you/them in the admissions process? </p>

<p>Am I right to think that for the audition-based admissions only the audition itself counts? Do any won competitions add anything to the picture? How about any performing activities - student recitals or "charitable" performances (at the nursing homes, senior centers, city/community/charity events)?</p>

<p>Am I right, on the other hand, that such activities weigh much more for non-audition-based admissions? Which ones (of the above) are more preferrable by adcoms? Is it important for the applicant to present some evidence of his/her heavy involvement in his/her school/community cultural life? What kind of evidence could it be (it's probably easy done for school-based activities, but not so easy - outside of school)?</p>

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<p>DS had mostly music ECs on his high school resume. The ones that were important were competitions, and his summer participation at Tanglewood. He was also in several precollege ensembles at the Hartt School. While he listed things like festival participation, the only notable ones were those that were more national than things like All State. Coincidentally, DS also did a lot of community service types of music playing and those were on his application in the community service section if there was one. Re: what is preferred by music adcoms...the thing they want to see is commitment (e.g. DS was in the Hartt Ensembles for three years), not a lot of different things for the sake of doing different things.</p>

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<p>Is the applicant in any way competitive if her resume is lacking in the area of competitions and awards, but overflown by various "community service" kinds of performing? My D is heavily involved in her school musical life (mostly, as an accompanist to choirs, musicals, ensembles at various school or community performances; she is also an officer of the "Music for communities" club, which is organizing charitable performances for seniors and for city events), and in some of the community cultural life - with her friends they made a small vocal/instrumental ensemble, which performs (mostly) French and Russian songs whenever they are asked for - also, for the city cultural events or for various charities. She is also involved with our immigrant community cultural life - sings (and occasionally plays vilolin) in the home-based amateur opera, provides musical accompaniment (and occasionally some acting) for childrens plays, where her little sister is active, sometimes helps me (with singing and some small organisational tasks) in some musical-folklore-based traditional cultural events ...</p>

<p>She has a lot of fun doing many of there acitivities (do they show enough commitment?), but all this doesn't leave much time for her to prepare for serious competitions. On the other hand, even if she wouldn't do all that, concentrating heavily on serious repertoire praciticing and competing, there would still be no garantee of any stellar results ... </p>

<p>Just now the school vacation week passed, which she hoped to spend practicing for some local competition (as well as doing some school homework, SAT preparation, college research etc.), but somehow huge part of time was spent on rehearsals and performance at some community event with her friends (some rotary club was raising funds for Special Olympics and invited them to sing and play there). They shined there ("watering down" mostly "country style" repertoire of other performers ;-)), got heavily complimented and offered some more analogical performing opportunities, felt good about helping great cause ... and my D finished her vacation school homework (sounds oxymoronic, right? ;-)) sometime after 3 a.m. today. She still hopes to prepare somewhat adequately and enter that competition ... but with much less confidence. </p>

<p>I wonder what her chances are to get into some good place if the tendency described above continues through all her high school.</p>

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<p>So long as your daughter auditions well, I don't think you have to worry too much about competitions. The only competition my daughter ever participated in was a concerto competition held by her local youth symphony. She did not take the top prize (not an easy thing for a double bass player up against a lot of flutes and violins) or get a solo performance out of it but she still got into a pretty good music school.</p>

<p>As far as EC's go, the best ones for a musician are those that will help him or her have a better audition. For some, it may involve physical activity that helps increase stamina. For others, it may be something aimed at helping increase concentration and calming the nerves in stressful situations. Lots of different musical experiences are always helpful. As both a singer and an instrumentalist, I find that each of those disciplines has a lot to teach the other. It is good that your daughter is doing both.</p>

<p>As you have figured out, the audition is by far the most important part of an application to a good music school. It is nearly the only consideration at some of the stand-alone conservatories. But you need to realize that teachers are looking for several things at auditions. Sure, they want to see some degree of technical sophistication, but they are really looking for evidence of potential for growth and that elusive quality called musicality. They are also looking for someone who is easy to work with, who can verbalize their goals and who is willing to work hard to achieve them. A student who can display some personality at an audition and then put that personality into their playing will get noticed every time.</p>

<p>Your daughter has more than enough EC's to demonstrate commitment. Personally, I would be worried that she is already spread too thin to have the time she will need to put together the required audition pieces. Assuming that she is in her junior year (because audition season for seniors is rapidly coming to a close,) it may be time for her to start paring down some of those EC's so that she can spend more time with her audition material. If a contest comes along that one or more of her audition pieces will satisfy, it would present a valuable opportunity to perform it under audition-like circumstances. Otherwise, she should be working very closely with her teacher at this point to focus in on those audition requirements.</p>

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<p>For "adution based admission" only the audition counts on the musical side, but don't forget that some schools, Oberlin, Northwestern, UMich for example, have academic cut-offs as well. Music is an extra-curricular in itself. I don't think prizes and competitions really count for much for music school admissions; the proof of committment will be in the playing, and a strong academic record will be important for some schools and irrelevant for others.</p>

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<p>What about "non-music" admissions (if she will apply to some schools without auditions, but paying close attention to ECs)? She is strong academically, but I wonder what the top schools' adcoms would appreciate more in terms of ECs (as the sign of the strong musical commitment and promise) - prizes and awards or numerous performances here and there? In the first case - it says about the applicant's extraordinary abilities; in the second - how much she would be involved (musically) in the campus life; what's more important to them?</p>

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<p>Having a long-term commitment to a music activity, such as a youth orchestra, is a good extracurricular activity for a non-conservatory type school. For some schools, for example UC Davis, there are extracurricular scoring guidelines. Under their guidelines, activities showing "leadership promise" include being a section leader in a school band or orchestra, being first chair in an orchestra, or earning a music award (such as for a competition), and "extended involvement or experience in another culture or one's own culture" -- which your daughter's activities seem to fit. They also list activities that earn "no points" -- including "participation in non-selective summer programs," "continuous long-term music lessons," and honorable mention awards. I imagine many schools regard these types of activities in much the same way.</p>

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<p>As I see an appropriate thread for this, rather than start another one, I am curious if anyone could help me... I posted this on another forum, but to no responses, but seeing as this thread is more appropriate, thought I'd try here, so I hope I'm not intruding and, if I am, my sincerest apologies...</p>

<p>I am currently in a community college (with about a 3.5 GPA) and plan to transfer to USC (as well as their Thornton School Of Music as a Music Industry Major with an emphasis on technology/record production) in 2008. But there are some questions I have regarding EC's, as my situation is sort of unique...</p>

<p>From about 6th grade through my high school graduation, I was severely ill with one health problem after another. Suffice to say, I was home schooled throughout that entire time (there was a couple of times I tried returning to school, but only to get sick again). Finally, this year has been the first year I have been able to successfully return to school, (first year of college) with a clean slate of health. However, as you can guess, because of all the time I was home, I wasn't able to join any clubs or do anything related to groups or anything outside.</p>

<p>Some of the things I did while I was home during those years was develop an enormous passion in music. Some of which includes: teaching myself musical instruments, teaching myself how to produce albums and record songs on the computer and basically be a one man band (which I still do, although my mixing does leave a lot to be desired, but I know what the buttons do and have some competence), worked with a lot of top recording softwares, and have perfect pitch (I hope I'm not coming off as bragging and apologies if I do... just merely listing things that I did during this time) etc., etc. So basically, my question is this: because my only EC's up to this point have been this, is this going to hurt me when I apply to USC or other schools? I mean, I know there's the great debate about very few passionate EC's might mean more than a ton of trivial one's, but, considering this is my one true passion, (which is also what I want to major in) is this not enough? Do I need more? In any event, your help and advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!</p>

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<p>Matthew,</p>

<p>I think USC or any other 4-year college will be much more interested in what you did while at your community college than in your lack of conventional EC's while in high school. Stop worrying about what you don't have and start planning what you can do to maximize your chances.</p>

<p>First and foremost, keep your grades up. Take the most challenging courses you can and get A's in them.</p>

<p>Considering all you've done and been through, it sounds like you have the makings of a really fine personal essay. Even if one is not required in the admissions process, it could be submitted as supplemental material. Get to work on it this coming summer at the latest. If your community college's English department or placement office is willing to critique your essay and provide some pointers, bring it to them in the fall and take all the help they can give.</p>

<p>Investigate the possibility of a relevant internship over the summer or as part of your community college curriculum. Again, use any resources available at your school to help you turn up different possibilities. I realize that this may be impractical for financial reasons if you have to work a lot of hours to pay for school, but it is still worth seeing what is out there.</p>

<p>If you have a CD that demonstrates some of the musical and technical work that you have done, consider submitting that with your application. If not, you still have a lot of time to work on one. Perhaps there are some resources available at your community college that you could tap into to make a better album than you could with the equipment that you have at home.</p>

<p>If you still have some time on you hands after doing these things, then you can start looking around for some EC's at your current school. Pick the one that interests you most, not the one that you think will look best on your application. Work your way into a leadership role if possible.</p>

<p>A mentor once told me that it is pointless to worry unless you intend to take action. I wish I had taken that advice to heart sooner in my own career.</p>

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<p>I agree with above posters who state that ECs are not really important for performance majors. The most important thing is the audition. However, I also think that those considering performance majors should be participating in as many competitions as they can. The purpose is not to win the competition but to learn how to prepare a piece to performance level and then playing it in a pretty high pressure situation in front of a bunch of strangers. Which is exactly what college auditions will be like. The more students can expose themselves to these conditions BEFORE college auditions, the better off they will be in the long run.</p>

<p>So those of you who are contemplating performance programs, audition for everything you can - concerto competitions, orchestra seating, chamber music positions, summer programs - anything that you can prepare for. My son probably had 2 dozen or so high intensity auditions under his belt before he ever did a college audition. He only won a couple of competitions but he learned how to prepare, how to deal with audition situations and it gave him much more confidence. The competitions he did win gave him performance opportunities as well which also added to his experience and his confidence. </p>

<p>So don't read all this and think that you don't need to get involved in much because it won't matter. What you put on a piece of paper won't matter but the skills you develop in going through the experience will.</p>

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<p>For non-music admissions, I think committment to an orchestra and the school and larger community will outweighweigh any competitions or prizes, but I also recommend (I think I've already said this on another thread) that your daughter play for the orchestra conductors at the Liberal Arts schools. Here's a way to think about it...what will she be bringing to the school? Prizes are nice, but if she's a good musician and will be playing the in the orchestra, that's much nicer, and certainly benefits the school more than any prizes or medals. Presumably if she has been very involved in the musical life of her school, this will also appear in the letters of recommendation she will have from faculty and college counselors.</p>

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<p>For the conservatory applications, many of the conservatories require a resume, so it is good to have something to fill it with, such as orchestra membership, competitions (if you win), gigs, a competitive summer program. Some also require an essay, in which you would want to mention such activities. The conservatories largely admit based on the audition, but they presumably also consider the resume and essay to some degree in evaluating the audition (Oberlin, for example, says the audition is 80% -- where is the other 20% if not in those items?). For schools like UC's, Northwestern, Michigan, and USC they also consider the student's overall record, even for admission to the performance programs, and certainly for scholarship purposes (USC, for example, gives its Thornton admittees the same scholarships as students in the other colleges and schools, including Presidential and Trustee scholarships, based on academic records and National Merit Finalist status; Regent's scholarships at the UC's will be based on academics, though many of the schools also give performance awards based on talent).<br>
For nonconservatory applications, your daughter will find that the Common Application and the UC application will give very little room to describe extracurricular activities (on the list of activities, you can include only a handful); you have to pick and choose, keeping in mind that these schools want to see commitment to an activity (a passion) and "leadership." She can also describe the activities in greater depth in an essay -- for example, one of the UC essays is about what you bring to the University, which her community activities and musical ability will show, and the Common Application essays also lend themselves to including those interests.</p>

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<p>And re: ECs the best EC's are the ones your student is interested in being in...not just a "packaging" for a college application. If the student chooses their own ECs with the idea that these are the thing for which they have some passion, then the ECs will be the right ones. Simply put...if your kid doesn't want to do competitions they shouldn't do them, no matter how much a college might want to see them. If your student doesn't want to play in youth orchestra or audition for festivals or competitive summer programs, then that is the way it is. ECs for any student should be chosen because they are that student's high interest.</p>

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<p>I'm going to take a slightly different stance on ECs. However, this is "one person's experience" so take it FWIW. I felt my S's ECs were valuable in a couple unconventional ways:</p>

<p>First, he listed ECs that provided a more objective portrayal of his ability. Things like All State, and a top level youth orchestra, and the competitions he won, all lead the auditioners to expect a certain level of playing. Conversely, if he played his socks off, but his resume didn't offer insight into a consistently high level of playing, the judges might might be left wondering if this was just a lucky day.</p>

<p>Second, ECs benefitted my S in ways that proved to be valuable to an potential music student: They provided auditioning experience. They allowed him to interact (or network) with students and teachers and professionals who could offer him feedback as to his playing and his future.</p>

<p>Third, at the conservatory level, teachers are looking for proof that you really want to do all music, all the time. Kids that see conservatory entrance as a badge to be won, or who are ambivalent, tend to drop out after finding out the intense environment is not what they were looking for after all. So teachers will show (I think) a lot more scepticism toward an auditionee who doesn't show evidence of already being immersed in music.</p>

<p>Just my 3 cents.</p>

<p>By the way, I've just made the rounds of auditions with D. She did not audition at conservatory level schools, and her resume is much, much more modest. It does seem that her actual audition is what mattered at these schools, although they did ask some questions about her teachers, and her Germany experience.</p>

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<p>I tend to agree with binx in that I think in my S's case, the most valuable entry on his resume was his six years of involvement in a pre-college type program, which, as it progressed, became increasingly demanding both in time and intensity and provided him with extensive performance experience. </p>

<p>While the audition itself is, no doubt, the most important thing, and there many be some (or many) cases where the resume is not really considered, I would think that if a decision between two candidates is close in terms of the audition, a resume listing experience that shows that the candidate has demonstrated both a high level of perfomance and a long term commitment to the performing arts might be of some help. </p>

<p>I have no trouble believing that in most cases, the resume has little or no impact on the decision. But all the conservatory level programs my S applied to did request one, so I figure it must come into play on occasion somehow.</p>

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<p>I agree with Binx. My kids are similar (but not the same) to hers. DS's resume had many music related activities. So did DD's. DS majored in music...DD just wants to play for the fun of it (and minor in music). However, their choice to pursue extensive ECs in high school was NOT to leverage their college application (although in DS's case, I believe his strong resume going into undergrad auditions was a good thing), it was because the kids actually loved doing these musical pursuits. I will say that in DS's case, many of the private teachers commented on things that were on his resume or asked questions about some of his experiences at the auditions (most of his schools did offer the committee a chance to talk to the student at the audition). DD's resume was her ticket to getting recognized as a non-major who could contribute to her small college's orchestra program (hey...they needed a good oboe/English horn player!!).</p>

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<p>Actually, the same applies to my D - she does most of her activities for the fun of it, not for application; but, recently she seems to be really overwhelmed with the demands of her junior year academics; the officer positions in her clubs (which she takes very seriously and tends to stress about it); the orchestra rehearsals (which eat up the significant part of every weekend); the competition she tries to prepare to; the job of her school musical accompanist, which she took on recently; the mentioned above her "homemade" charity perfromances with friends ... and on top of all that right now she goes around with her calendar, asking "I promised piano accompaniment to this boy and that girl (her schoolmates) for their performance here and there" - when it's convenient for them to come to our house for a rehearsal?" </p>

<p>So, I feel that the line should be put somewhere already, but I'm not sure, where exactly ;-). If she loves ALL her activities, maybe it's time to choose the most important ones and concentrate on them - but she can't decide what's most important, so I try to bring, at least, this criteria - "admissions-importance" - into the picture. :-)</p>

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<p>Myau, </p>

<p>To the extent that anything other than the audition is considered in a conservatory or music program admission decision, I think the approach is pretty much the same as in academic admissions. You want the EC's to reflect the genuine interests of the student, and demonstrate commitment, leadership, the ability to be a contributing member of a group, positive impact on the community--things of that sort. Those are the types of things that would be impressive to ADCOMS. It is also important, IMO, to show some maturity in the student's ability to recognize that there are only so many hours in a day, and some must be devoted to sleep; therefore, the student should commit to a select number of activities that are truly important to him/her and not have a number of actitivites listed that would be humanly impossible to make a real contribution to AND devote the necessary time to practice, etc.</p>

<p>I did not have much trouble getting my S to realize, say, he really couldn't play football and be serious about the tenor saxophone--once he jammed his finger, and his teacher looked at him like he was a martian, football was done. My D, on the other hand, who is not a musician, but is very artsy ( she was a serious dancer, but did not pursue it after high school) really struggled with the idea that you just can't do everything you might want to do at the level at which you want/need (or think you want/need) to do it. Even in college, she was constantly overloaded with activities and it wasn't until she nearly crashed her senior year that she finally started to get the picture.</p>

<p>If your D is planning to apply to a conservatory, then at this point, her focus should be on music and preparing for her auditions. Time will be here before she knows it. She can still participate in clubs, but perhaps not hold leadership positions. It is a good idea for her to start NOW, imo, to make sensible decisions about what is enough and what is too much, with your help, of course. My two cents.</p>

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<p>I somewhat doubt that a student would be rejected or looked down upon if he/she hadn't won any competitions at all, after all, most of the good music schools/conservatories know that competitions (especially local ones) are VERY subjective. And, you're dealing with a bunch of high schoolers, who probably don't have too much experience onstage. The best players don't always win (or maybe at all), and the winners aren't necessarily the best. Competitions reflect on how well you did that day, as well as who went, and how much the judges just happen to like you, and even what is goign through their head at that moment. I know that from experience. It also depends on your location as well, since some places are a lot more competitive than others. No offense to anyone, but im quite sure that there is a higher majority of amazing players in the east coast, in comparison to lets say, oklahoma. And these issues acutally go for cities as well. In my area (Bay), it's really competitive for a majority of the competitions, because of the fact that there are some really good teachers and students competing locally. Not to mention, it's usually the same kids going to different competitions. Don't believe me? Just get a taste of mindy chen(violin) on youtube. she lives in my city, and we share teachers. and he has many other students that are almost on that level. its usually all of us competing against each other, and one usual predicted winner.</p>

<p>Ahh. I'm rambling! Well, yeah i'm just saying i doubt the lack of winning a competition really means anything.</p>

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<p>Winning competitions, All-State invovlement, etc. hold little to no water when applying to conservatories. These tend to be "subjective" items, depending on the circumstance. If you don't think that college faculty members know these tare subjective then you're really being really naive.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that the audition makes up the lion's share of the decision for conservatories. Joe Schmatz with a insignificant resume will get into a top flight conservatory with an excellent audtition. On the other hand, Peter Perfect, with a resume and EC list of excellence will be rejected if his audition is not up to snuff. </p>

<p>IMHO spending time "building a EC list" for a music major is time taken away from practicing for auditions and contraindicated. EC "crafting" may work for those hoping to get in an Ivy, but it is misplaced effort here.</p>

<p>So in order of importance IMHO...</p>

<ol>
<li>Audition</li>
<li>Audition</li>
<li>Audition</li>
<li>Any interactions with professor through college visits or summer programs or other conduits</li>
<li>Resume</li>
</ol>