Weight of EC's for music kids in application process

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I was wondering... Many of the students who post here talk about all of the EC's they are involved in...clubs, organizations, volunteer stuff, etc.</p>

<p>My S attends an arts high school with a conservatory approach. His school day goes from 8:30am to 4:30pm, with academic subject classes in the morning and his music classes (ensembles, theory, instrument lessons, ear training, etc) in the afternoon. Because it is a conservatory arts school, they don't have the usual array of "regular" high school clubs, activities, etc. There are no opportunities for him to participate in EC's or service activities, etc., with the exception of an AIDS benefit show the kids put on in the fall (and which I have encouraged him to get involved with this coming year). In addition, his weekends are also filled up with music-- he is involved with a Saturday program at a local (highly regarded) music school that takes up his entire day. I'm not sure when he would have time to do volunteer work or even hold a part-time job. Although I have suggested to him that he try being a "music tutor" for kids in his old grade school's music program, and he is looking at getting some of his classmates together as a combo to get gigs.</p>

<p>My question is this--what do we do with this if he decides to study something besides music in college? I imagine the conservatory-based programs won't care that he wasn't the captain of the mathlete team, but what if he applies to a school where that might matter? From my perspective S's involvement in all this music demonstrates the kind of leadership, commitment and communication skills that schools are looking for, but I wonder if/how we should talk about his "activities" if he's applying as an undecided major at Johns Hopkins, or Brown, or Northwestern, etc? How does he list them in the 12 slots on the Common App? </p>

<p>S is a rising junior, so I suppose we could also try and cram some kind of volunteer effort into the next two years...heh...</p>

<p>Any advice or strategies would be welcome.</p>

2

<p>If your son does decide to apply to non conservatories but has spent his time and energy pursuing what he loves in high school, he will do fine. Most of the admissions people can see through the applicants that just pad their resumes. He is on the right track with his current EC’s and should allow himself to develop those that he loves. </p>

<p>My S actually contacted an admissions rep to ask about setting up courses for next year, wanting to take 1 less AP in favor of adding another music course. The answer was “take the music course. We want to see you on the application, not just a bunch of AP classes”.</p>

3

<p>Please don’t worry about this at all. I will pm you.</p>

<p>One concern we had was academics at a conservatory high school, only in the sense that often kids in the arts/performing arts take fewer academic classes than peers at non-conservatory high schools. But even that is not a big concern.</p>

<p>I don’t think that EC’s are a concern at all, in this kind of scenario. Honest.</p>

<p>I hope your son can enjoy his “passion” whole-heartedly and wish him good luck as he makes difficult choices in the coming year or two!</p>

4

<p>My son had no non-music ECs at all, just jazz ensembles, combos, orchestra, select band, pit, etc. plus an all-day Saturday pre-college program. He did teach lessons and did paid accompaniment, but those were, obviously, still music-related! It didn’t hurt him in the slightest; he was accepted everywhere he auditioned (all conservatory programs).</p>

<p>Best of luck to your son! I’m sure he will do just fine!</p>

5

<p>While it most probably won’t matter when it comes to acceptance into a university setting program it will probably matter with any scholarship money that has a service component to it.</p>

6

<p>I have to say, based on several years working/volunteering in a college counseling office, I DO think my sons “roundedness” helped him with acceptances to non-conservatory programs. But these were all activities he felt passionate about - and there weren’t a million of them: one sport, one academic competition, and community service. And the caveat is: in his genre (jazz) there were only SO many extracurricular opportunities in our town, and only ONE before-school program, so he did have time for other things. I think passion for what you do trumps everything–getting involved in something for the resume doesn’t serve anyone well, especially a kid who is only participating for that purpose.</p>

7

<p>I remember reading an article in either Time or Newsweek a few years ago about how kids got into Harvard. The main message was “passion.” Of course, there needed to be some sort of minimum great GPA and test scores, but separate from that was that an applicant needed to exhibit commitment and interest. </p>

<p>Whether this was a bunch of ECs, or the focus on a sport, or the commitment to running a small business, or being in a band that gigged often, the point was that the applicant should display an ability to really get into something that he/she cared about and excel. I think your description of your S fits the bill.</p>

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<p>Hi there. My son had pretty much nothing but music EC’s (a jazz program every single summer since 6th grade), a “jazz outreach” program (playing in retirement homes, assisted living centers), giving guitar lessons, performing with the school’s top jazz ensembles, playing w/his rock band at all the major local clubs (we live in LA, so Troubadour, Viper Room, The Roxy, Whiskey, etc.)</p>

<p>Other than one school year volunteering at an animal shelter once a week, that was the sum total of his EC’s.</p>

<p>He got into both conservatories and selective universities with audition-based music programs. He’ll attend USC Thornton School of Music in the fall.</p>

<p>Needless to say, have your kid put down everything as an EC! He’ll be better than fine!</p>

9

<p>Mine was somewhere between SJTH’s and -Allmusic-'s, with some history related, model UN conferences and competitions. Other than that, it was pure music.</p>

10

<p>How are your son’s summers? (I’m guessing he’s at summer music festivals). Perhaps he could find a week here or there to pursue a volunteer opportunity briefly.</p>

<p>If he has a little bit of time during the year, it might be worthwhile for him to do something with his music that has a pro bono dimension, such as playing in a nursing home once a month (time required: 1 hour plus travel time, one afternoon or evening per month) or playing in a community ensemble (might require weekly rehearsals). Another thought is to organize a fund-raising recital at his school. </p>

<p>If your son has other interests, it can be an enjoyable break from all the music and college app focus to do something unrelated every now and then. In his Junior year, my son was curious to try Model UN and found he really loved it. He started a Model UN club which only met once per month and attended three conferences over the course of his last two years of High School. The conferences had to be local so he could still make his Saturday music program, and that meant missing part of the conferences, and his schedule was very insane, but he really loved being in a different type of activity. (He also met kids not involved in the arts and from all over the world).</p>

11

<p>From everything I can see or hear, in terms of a conservatory it won’t matter, they go primarily on your audition and/or by which teacher wants to teach you. </p>

<p>In terms of getting into normal colleges (I mean academic, or maybe the dual path ones like Bard and so forth) I think the music things would count. Given that kids with a passion for music are rare, it could even be a big plus. There has been a lot written in recent years about college resume padding and how with all the kids rushing to do EC’s and volunteer work to ‘look good’ on the college CV, that admissions people are seeing right through it (and knowing a number of people who work in volunteer based groups, from rescue squads to raptor rehab [no, not that kind of rehab <em>lol</em>]) they see through it too, many of them are really wary of high school student volunteers because they often are as one friend of mine put it, about as interested as a preacher at the atheists convention… </p>

<p>Not sure if this helps, but at the big pre college music programs conventional wisdom seems to be that roughly 50% of the kids are not there because they want to go into music, but rather that even if interested in music, having that on their resume looks good to top level colleges for academic studies (many of those who dont’ go to conservatories or into music still play in college orchestras and such, and that can weight into admissions decisions from what I hear on the grapevine). Given the difficulty of getting into these kind of programs, it is not surprising it makes them stand out at non music programs/colleges…</p>

<p>So from my view you don’t have to worry about the EC thing. What is out there as conventional wisdom is often like some of the posts on here, they aren’t necessarily correct and often reflect a reality that isn’t (like that somehow admissions people look at a cv, and that if they don’t have X EC’s the app is in the garbage can…just isn’t true, quality matters more then numbers) [and yes, folks that applies to some of my own posts…found out some of what I believed to be true wasn’t…]</p>

12

<p>Our daughter had a lot of EC’s on her application. Her resume was not padded. They were legitimate activities that took hours of time away from her friends and even practicing. I would agree that they may not have helped her “get in.” But I think they did signficiantly improve her chances of getting scholarhip dollars. In addition, I think they meausrably enhanced her life and her maturation process. Taking on leadership roles, she was continuously confronted with real life situations and decision-making situations giving her solid people skills and team experience. Many of these situations provided her with the life experience from which she wrote her essays. If your child’s school situation does not offer much of an opportunity for EC’s I would advise looking to the community. My understanding is that competitive programs regard these non-school community-based activities, even more highly than school-related EC’s.</p>

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<p>I would also like to point out that colleges, and not strictly conservatories, are not just lookign for the ultra-talented, one-sided student. Nowadays, they want a student that does more than just find his/her niche in a certain area (like music). They want it all, and if your resume can show that you have done it all, then you’re in good shape.</p>

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<p>I disagree. Many top colleges are in fact looking for kids with one major “passion” that the student has a lot of commitment to. They assemble a campus full of diverse kids, with diverse interests, some of them well-rounded, some of them narrow. They want an interesting and rich mix.</p>

<p>I would not worry much about EC’s in this case. The activities at the conservatory school and on Saturdays at the music schools are more than enough.</p>

<p>His school offers no other EC’s or clubs, so it isn’t as if he is failing to take advantage of what is offered there.</p>

<p>To take on some volunteering simply to have on the resume or the application form seems silly. If the son is clamoring for more connection to the community, or really wants to perform in nursing homes, fine, but there will be plenty of time for that.</p>

<p>I would suggest filling out the form w/details of what is done at school and on Saturdays, or, if that doesn’t work, either the guidance counselor or your son can write a letter with those details and an explanation of the situation. But it will be clear to admissions anyway, since it is a conservatory school.</p>

<p>Taking the most rigorous academic classes is helpful, but otherwise, I hope this student can enjoy his last year doing what he loves, without these needless worries.</p>

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<p>I disagree about colleges wanting students that “have it all”. The likelihood that a child can be passionate and have a huge commitment to any EC decreases when they are overloaded with a large variety of EC activities…in my opinion.</p>

<p>Both of my kids had music EC’s and virtually nothing else. Their volunteer activities were even music (playing the National Anthem at civic activities, volunteering to play in civic orchestras, etc). One graduated from Boston University (in music) and the other from Santa Clara University (in engineering). And for the non-music one, there were comments on her letters of acceptance from three schools about her commitment to her musical pursuits in high school.</p>

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<p>It would be interesting to have admissions people comment on this thread, because it touches on a lot of issues.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone is saying EC’s are bad things, far from it, they can teach a lot for the student who is interested in them. I think what people are commenting on, including myself, is the idea that simply doing ec’s and having them on a resume is what counts (by itself), that you need some number, etc. </p>

<p>I think what is being confused here is what the admissions people seem to want (and this is just my opinion, I am not an admissions official, this is based on simply what I have seen and heard) and what people perceive it. The standard war cry was to show “well roundedness” ,that that was the holy grail, and I think people saw this as being ‘do as much as possible’…what I read all the time from admissions people is they are looking for things that distinguish a student, make them a fit, bring something to the school, etc…and admissions people are not stupid, they can read between the lines between the hyper student doing a ton of ec’s to pad a resume, and those interested in it. </p>

<p>I think people have seen comments like I have, that the math geek with a 4.0 and a perfect SAT may not get admitted if that is all they are, whereas someone less stellar who brings something to the plate may get in. The math geek whose only hobbies are video gaming may be in trouble; the kid who actually has experienced something, whether it is volunteering, doing something unique, a unique passion, is going to stand out IMO. Mindless doing EC’s or volunteer work doesn’t stand out, because frankly that is what so many are doing, they do want someone who seems to have a passion. </p>

<p>As far as someone passionate about music being ‘single minded’ or dull, it really depends, music can be a bit different then the kid I mentioned above with the 4.0/perfect SAT, because kids who are into music are doing a lot more then practicing their instrument. The serious music kids are generally in programs that require both musical skill and academic skills (ear training and theory come to mind); most of them are doing public outreach, most of the programs outside school require outreach performances at hospitals and such. Many of the kids also do music programs like all state, or music festivals, that are a different experience too.</p>

<p>It would be like the aforementioned math geek, who besides studying and getting good grades, also showed a passion for something that required more then giving the right answers on tests. For example, a kid who challenged himself and worked on solving a mathematics theorem yet unproved; the kid who does research on alternative battery design, or whatever (think of the Intel science talent search), and so forth. Having that passion and putting it to work seems to mean something; doing the dutiful volunteering in a hospital, doing glee club, environmental club, boy scouts, etc, etc on a resume can show only a kid trying to game the system (words of an actual article I read from an admissions officer). </p>

<p>Again, these are my opinions, offered up in the hope it helps someone. As the parent of a music student, what worries me is that a parent will buy into the hype that you need X EC’s and immediately have a musically talented kid pull back from pursuing music to do EC’s with an eye towards college admissions, because “you have to”.</p>

<p>And my recommendation to parents who are worried about that, besides doing research on what admissions people are saying, pick some schools you think might be representative, and ask them the question (and if you are worried that it would affect their admissions, choose schools of a comparable level they aren’t likely to go to…). One thing I have found among the admissions people I have run into is that most are only too glad to talk about issues like EC’s and such and the admissions process. Again, what they are looking for is kids who define their own way, not cookie cutters following a formula, if my experience holds, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they said something similar:)</p>

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<p>I remember this article in the N.Y Times, Q&As from Fitzsimmons ([HARVARDDEAN</a> - The Choice Blog - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/harvarddean/]HARVARDDEAN”>harvarddean - The Choice Blog - The New York Times)) and if I remember well (too lazy to read that again) they want a well-rounded class with single or bi-talented kids who can work together more than a lot of single well-rounded kids. I remember reading something along the lines that they are students who get in by being at the very top on one academic subject; others by being at the well-rounded top students; others by being at the very top on one extracurricular activity.
Music itself can be well-rounded I think. If you play in an orchestra, chamber music group, mix it to community service, manage to get some teaching experience/job through it and some leadership experience as well, I think it’s worth any other combination of ECs.</p>

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<p>P.S. for my recent engineering graduate, she did a number of ECs in college too…hit or miss, for a semester or two or three…but the ONLY one she stuck with for the whole four years was…orchestra.</p>

<p>Her lack of ECs other than music did not make any difference at all in her admissions to an engineering program…and in the end, that EC prevailed over everything else she did EC wise in college.</p>

19

<p>Don’t forget that the schools need musicians for their ensembles and orchestras. It can actually matter if you play French horn versus violin, too, in a certain year when they need French horns.</p>

<p>It isn’t entirely about how they evaluate you, but also about what they need!</p>

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<p>Never underestimate the schools and employers who admire the intensity and focus of the full time music student.(No EC’s except music) Between getting her BM and going to grad school, D scored an excellent position with a large engineering company. She assisted the engineers in writing and filing detailed reports with the Federal Government. When she was helping them search for her replacement, they insisted she find another music grad.</p>