<p>Well, I don't know how I feel about this instance but I know my kid , who wasn't sure she wanted to play ball in college, told me at crunch time that she couldn't go to Hamilton and not play basketball. She had "bonded" with the coach and team and had (coincidentally) received a nice named scholarship. Since she wasn't sure she would play , Hamilton fell off the list although they were wonderful and generous and D loved everything about it. I guess it just didn't feel right to her. As she was also a Section Leader of The Tuba Section (:eek:) I know she'd feel the same about a music (band,marching band, symphony, whatever) deal.</p>
<p>(OT : But with my D , she wasn't using sports to get in academically, she was using her academics to make the team. LOL. :))</p>
<p>OP describes it as a "small" scholarship, so perhaps the kids don't value it because the university doesn't, either. Which bothers you more: the money, or that you feel they secured their school admission spot with a false promise of music? </p>
<p>Ethically, the only part of the story that troubles me is that they seemed to plan this move in advance. Students are able to change their minds freely, but if so it needs to happen organically, not as an admission game.</p>
<p>Don't similar things happen with sports or other specialty majors? </p>
<p>Maybe because it was a "small" scholarship the kid thought it was worth the small loss to gain entry to the university, while another kid might have treasured the same amount of money. </p>
<p>Many issues are troubling to me here, but it's also entirely possible it was an honest change of focus.</p>
<p>Another way to look at it is that these kids were simply rewarded for their hard work in music during high school. It is analogous to 4.0 students who are rewarded by being admitted to top colleges, only to discover once they get there that they don't want to work hard anymore and end up in the bottom 25%.</p>
<p>Bay's point is well taken in that most colleges explicitly acknowledge that having a "special" talent (in music, sports, political organizing, science, whatever) is an understandable reason why a child's SAT scores or high school grades may be slightly lower than other successful applicants to the same college. A while ago CC participant PapaChicken found a link to the Harvard NCAA self-study, </p>
<p>and by hunting around in that you will Harvard's statement that a student with significant accomplishments outside the classroom is not held to the same standard of scores, etc. </p>
<p>My other thought, reading this thread, is that any student interested in music could have auditioned. If a whole lot of students had, then only the best musicians would have got in, and if a lot of students hear about the opportunity to audition to be admitted, the university probably still imposes some standard of grades and scores on the students who make the audition cut. This may be a side door into the university, but it doesn't sound like a back door.</p>
<p>It seems like too many people here are ignoring the fact that they maliciously, and instinctively, planned out this course of action. They did not just decide that they were no longer interested in the music major, they never intended to take the major to begin with, only to use it as a means into the college. </p>
<p>That does bother me, of course, they played the system. In a very dishonest way, I might add. I would have expected more of you to be offended by their actions, but perhaps the central point of the OP's post was misread.</p>
<p>"It seems like too many people here are ignoring the fact that they maliciously, and instinctively, planned out this course of action. They did not just decide that they were no longer interested in the music major, they never intended to take the major to begin with, only to use it as a means into the college."</p>
<p>I fully realize that. At the same time, I know that one can't predict the future particularly when it comes to students' majors. I assume that the students also are talented in music in order to get offered scholarships after auditioning, so perhaps if they go to the college they will end up majoring in music or doing something useful in the music department even if right now, they don't plan to do either.</p>
<p>My perspective is that of a former faculty member whose department used to do a lot to try to attract students who were very talented in our major. Sometimes talented students who ended up majoring in other areas still were valuable contributors to our department.</p>
<p>Either the music department isn't very competitive or the students are fine musicians. Having been through the audition process...there is significant preparation that goes into these auditions. You don't just wake up in the morning one day and decide to audition...OH and get accepted on the spot. The OP indicates that these are acquaintances of the friend who wasn't accepted. I would give the benefit of the doubt here...maybe there is more to the story than the OP knows. Schools accept kids for many reasons and deny admittance for many reasons also...and most often these reasons are not very easy to understand. No one here viewed the transcripts or test scores for these admitted students...and as I said before...in my experience, music students have to be in the ball park for admittance or the music department really can't advocate for them very much.</p>
<p>Maybe the college has been burned by too many applicants deciding, during high school, to drop music to do SAT test-prep and to keep up their high school grades. So the university, which still wants to maintain its music program, is casting a wide net for musicians. And that is fine. If other high school students had shown up at the auditions with better performances, they would have been in. Or if a student had a truly amazing academic record while unable to carry a tune in a bucket, that student would be in. It's always students near the edge of one selection process that complain the most about another selection process, but that is why there is more than one college in this country (and in most states, other than Wyoming) and why everyone may as well apply to more than one college.</p>
<p>karlking, I've been thinking about this post all evening and about your surprise at how willing parents are to accept this "dishonest" way of gaining admission into the school. I surprised myself with my immediate response that I wasn't too concerned with the ethics of the situation, as I consider myself a very ethical person.</p>
<p>I guess the more I learn about the whole admissions process, the more jaded (realistic?) I've become. Colleges play the numbers game in myriad ways. If one of these girls is talented enough to earn an offer on the spot, then her skills must be highly desired by the college. Colleges pick all sorts of students based on the college's needs: geographic diversity, SES diversity, ethnic diversity, point guard, shortstop, tuba player, etc. A perfectly wonderful student, the one in OP's story, was denied admission, but it wasn't because of these two girls. They just happened to have something the college wanted, and the other girl didn't. </p>
<p>And I truly do believe that they may change their mind. If they are that good, then they must have devoted much of their time to their music; they may decide not to give it up. Anyway, when it comes my son's turn to apply to college, you better believe we'll be playing up his assets to our advantage; I'll take any advantage I can get!!</p>
<p>I guess I was naive enough to think that a lot of music scholarships were for participation in the band or orchestra and didn't necessarily require a commitment to major in music. </p>
<p>I am very conflicted about this. I do think it's wrong to lie but I think it happens all the time. What happens when a kid really wants to major in Bio but decided to do that in senior year-- too late to sign up for AP Bio? Or what happens when a gifted writer wants to major in science? Or what happens when a kid fluent in Japanese wants to apply to a school with a growing Asian Studies major-- does he say he wants to apply there or go with his real love? </p>
<p>I think this is the problem with not wanting "well-rounded students" but rather a "well-rounded class." Back in the "well-rounded student" day (if there ever was one-- I thought there was), these students could play up their strengths without having to commit to them. Now, we expect 18yos to have a coherent educational/ life story. I can't help but think that such an expectation is unreasonable. </p>
<p>The thought that someone who was dragged to music lessons for example (as I was) and HATED it could take a seat from a kid who would willingly practice 12 hours a day is sad. And I'm not saying these girls were dragged or hate it-- I'm just saying this opens up that possibility.</p>
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<p>Either the music department isn't very competitive or the students are fine musicians. Having been through the audition process...there is significant preparation that goes into these auditions.<<</p>
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<p>This was my thought, too, thumper1. In many schools, getting in on academics is a lot easier than getting in by music auditions.</p>
<p>If there is not open enrollment into the music program I feel that this is not ethical at all because the students are denying a spot for another deserving applicant who does intend on majoring in music.</p>
<p>For those who think that it is okay, ask yourself how you would feel if your student was one of the applicants denied admission because of this practice? Ends do not justify the means.</p>
<p>And the music director should be ashamed of himself for encouraging this behavior for his/her own aggrandizement. One might think that the hs's future music students may be harmed by this practice if it became commonplace. I would be suspect in accepting students if there was a history of losing them after a semester or two for no particular reason.</p>
<p>This is the first time I've seen this problem addressed on these boards. At the beginning of our search process, we toyed with this idea, but decided it just wasn't ethical. What are these parents teaching their children by allowing them to lie like this?!</p>
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<p>music scholarships were for participation in the band or orchestra and didn't necessarily require a commitment to major in music. >></p>
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<p>Depends on the award. We had one kid with a music performance award (large) and he was required to be a music performance major in good standing to continue receiving that award. Our other kid gets an orchestral scholarship (small...but every penny counts) for her continued participation in the orchestra at her school. She is not a music major.</p>
<p>It's the deliberate deception that bothers me. (And has others have mentioned, these girls are either FANTASTIC musicians or the program at this school is very weak. Auditions for good programs are nerve wracking & the competition is fierce. Maybe YoYo Ma could waltz in casually & win a scholarship at a good program, but not many others are in that category.)</p>
<p>I've had this discussion with my own D, a h.s Jr who is the concertmaster of her orchestra. She has no intention of pursuing violin in college, yet if a college would look favorably on her ability (and that's a HUGE if) she'd be stupid not to take advantage of that. But as an ethical matter, she'd have to honor any commitment that was implied with the advantage given. To do anything less would make me feel we'd failed as parents to develop D's moral compass. The same would apply to winning one of the scholarshps colleges offer for community service efforts. If you accept it, you had better be ready to keep up the Community service, or you are just a fraud. I'm not talking about legitimate changes of interest, of course. Kids grow & change, we all know.</p>
<p>Maybe these girls were SO talented that they stated "We're really not sure about a career/major commitment in music," but the program director wanted them anyway. Sometimes these stories get quite twisted as everyone plays telephone.</p>
<p>The whole story rings a little bogus to me.</p>
<p>In the first place, to audition for music school requires a repertoire of various pieces. Now, I just looked at the UF website for the audition requirements, and they are not nearly as rigorous as at "better" music schools, but there are still requirements (etudes, concerto or sonata movements, major and chromatic scales, sight reading). One would simply have to prepare for an audition like this, even if extremely talented.</p>
<p>So, whatever happens with these students, they had to have done some work prior to the audition. They simply couldn't have waltzed in and gotten big scholarships on the spot. And, if they were THAT talented, one wonders what on earth they were auditioning at UF for anyway....</p>
<p>Allmusic, I agree...these students needed to do some preparation...and probably a LOT of it. Preparing for an audition is not something you do on a whim. And to play it well enough to be offered admittance on the spot...and with scholarship...shows some talent relative to the audition pool. </p>
<p>AND this is all REPORTED information second or third hand...it's a friend of the OP who got rejected and it's acquaintances of all of them who got accepted. Something tells me there is more to the story.</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback. It's not my D, she did not apply. Her good friend, who she has been in school with since preschool, was the one who did not get in. One of the friends who got in via audition we know very well, a very talented musician. But the interest at this time is not a music degree or a music profession. And this student is openly now telling talented juniors in the band "how to get admitted" to UF. We have known the family since elementary school This is a small community, the kids have gone to school with many of their friends since kindergarten, even prior. And between direct conversations with students, parents, etc this info is accurate. And juniors and sophomores are "all over" this type of info right now, planning strategy to get in.</p>
<p>Although I don't think "gaming" is wrong in and of itself, I do think lying is.</p>
<p>In my D's case, as I stated before, she auditioned at all her schools on violin, but also specifically said she didn't plan to be a performance major. At several schools she applied as a double major (BA in music, and something else to do with languages) or as a music minor. I suppose this was gaming in the sense that she wanted to continue playing violin, and as a minor or double major we wouldn't have to pay for the lessons! And if they needed violins, and were willing to pay, we were willing to "allow that".</p>
<p>At all of the schools, receiving a scholarship was contingent upon her being in the orchestra, which she was willing to do. She ended up switching to performance major when the school offered her more money to do so. Everyone's eyes are wide open here. Although she is using violin as a hook, and as the means to an end, she is not lying about it. (And will probably end up as a performance major after all.)</p>
<p>I do have a problem with dishonesty. But I don't limit it to music. I see kids padding their HS resumes with ECs they have no interest in, and even suggesting to colleges that these would be ECs they'd be willing to continue in college, when they have no real intention of doing it - whether it be crewing or writing for the school newspaper.</p>
<p>I don't have any experience with the school in question. It is possible that a student could get admitted, and receive money, simply for agreeing to be in the orchestra. In that case, it is a legitimate hook IMO. The caution I would throw out to the gullible HS students thinking that applying as a music major is a sure hook -- that only works if you are able to be admitted in that major. What happens if you apply on an instrument they don't need? They reject you outright, and you can't come back saying, "But! Hey! Wait! I didn't mean it! I have no intention of majoring in that."</p>
<p>I agree that it sounds dishonest on its face to gain admittance without any intention of majoring in music, but personally I tend to favor the applicant in most college admittance situations. </p>
<p>It is the colleges who make the rules for admittance, and if they want to require that every student who is admitted for music may only major in music or be expelled, then that is their prerogative. They have chosen not to do this, and they are fully aware that any admittee may change his/her mind about a major at any point in the process, so they have assumed that risk.</p>