Advice for a confused pre-med?

Parents Forum
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<p>My son does not post here, but has been lurking in the pre-med forum to get advice on ways for an undergrad to maximize chances of getting into med school. What he read boiled down to this: </p>

<li><p>Major in the subject in which you can get the highest grades. If you can get higher grades in basket weaving than Bio or Chem, do basket weaving.</p></li>
<li><p>For similar reasons, enroll in the school where you can get your highest GPA. Attend Brown rather than MIT, since the latter is too tough. Most of the posters ideally recommended an Ivy (other than Cornell), since grades are supposedly looser. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I checked out the forum to make sure he hadn’t misunderstood something, but my reading is the same as his. I even spoke with a doctor I know and he confirmed the point: attend a school that’s generous with grades because med school admission is basically about numbers. </p>

<p>Should any of this factor into son’s choice of an undergrad school? We don’t know what choices he’ll have but he’s consistently been attracted to schools that have a reputation for being “tough”. For example, Chicago, Swarthmore, Brandeis and U Rochester are all on his list: schools that are known for grade deflation ** or ** “weeding” out potential pre-meds by tough competition in classes like Org Chem. The one exception on his list (admittedly a long shot) would be Brown, which is often seen as more flexible in terms of grades.</p>

<p>Obviously, many students get into med schools from places like Chicago and Swarthmore, yet others would say this doesn’t take into account the many more who fall by the wayside, and that the numbers falling by the wayside are considerably fewer at a school with grade inflation. </p>

<p>Does anyone have sons or daughters considering pre-med? Do you think this advice is hokum and hoopla? If son chooses a tough undergrad school (even ** if ** he’s lucky enough to get into one!), is he potentially hurting himself? My son has had this interest many years, and is unlikely to change unless he gets weeded out by grades. </p>

<p>Any advice for a confused pre-med? :confused:</p>

2

<p>
[quote]
Should any of this factor into son's choice of an undergrad school?

[/quote]
No. </p>

<p>I mean on the margin if he's really torn between two schools he considers absolutely identical and one is reputed to be more generous with grades then choose that one, but this is an unlikely scenario.</p>

<p>But as for focusing your search on colleges that are reputed to give higher grades, and picking a major for GPA as opposed to interest, bad ideas!! For one thing, an astonishing number of kids enter college with the idea of med school in their future. Many discover other interests they didn't know about before college (one reason to pick a GOOD college that truly educates your child instead of an easy one, BTW). Some discover they don't like the coursework in the required premed classes; o-chem is a notorious weed-out class. </p>

<p>And I'd add that rather than picking a major because grading is reputedly easy, pick a major that you love because you'll do well in a subject that you enjoy studying and you'll gain an education to boot.</p>

<p>Lastly, while many kids begin college with the notion of becoming a lawyer or doctor, its worth asking why they picked these fields. Many HS kids are not well informed about the jobs out in the "real" world. So they're choosing from an artifically small basket. Second, they have no actual experience with the job, so when they tell people they're thinking of some prestigious occupation they get the pats on the back and encouragement but have no real idea if they'd enjoy the job. Here's one step you should do now. Encourage your son to volunteer in a medical setting for a few months. Experience in the field is one of the unwritten requirements for med school admissions, and by doing it now your son can either build his enthusiasm or find out now that its not a fit.</p>

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<p>"Grade deflation" is not the same thing as "weed-out". Weed-out is a multi-step process which usually involves grading some introductory courses on a very strict curve, making more demands than are really necessary for the mastery of the subject, advising that pushes students in other directions, providing mentoring and research opportunities only for top students, and, finally, if all those fail, requiring students get recommendations from specially constructed "med school admissions committees", and restricting the number who receive them. Some of the so-called "best" pre-med schools (JHU, comes to mind, about which I have no direct knowledge) have a reputation for being notorious in all this areas, citing 95% med school admission rates, when in fact, fewer than 30% of entering pre-meds ever get there.</p>

<p>Of course, the biggest issue I would think in being a future med student is whether you can pay for it. As regards majors, he should do what he loves. Williams' music department brags that they have a higher rate of majors going on to med school than the biology department.</p>

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<p>As a sophomore pre-med, I would advise your son to look for a school where the students are known to work together instead of compete against each other, where research opportunities are plentiful, with opportunities for clinical observation or work (volunteering, shadowing, student EMS service, etc.), and most importantly, where the professors are supportive and accessible.</p>

<p>When your son goes to apply to med school, having had these experiences, and professors who know him well enough to write about them in detail on his recommendations will be of the utmost importance.</p>

<p>At the same time, the main goal should be to become a happy, comptent physician and community member - not to get into med school. These are two very different things. So go somewhere where you will be happy and learn a lot. That's what college is for.</p>

<p>Of course, combined programs, like Northwestern's HPME, Rice/Baylor MSP, Brown's PLME, Rochester Early Medical Scholars, etc., enable you to go to some "tough" schools, and not worry about GPA (well, within reason).</p>

<p>(This plus some other info is in your PM box, Cami)</p>

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<p>Last year my D was torn between music and pre-med. I told her if she wanted to go into medicine her choice was clear - - she needed to continue with music. It is not only Williams' music that outdoes biology for med school admissions. This is true nationwide. Med school admission is much more likely for a music major than for a bio major.</p>

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<p>Cami, recognize that the folks who post in the pre-med forum are pre-med, i.e. have absolutely no concept of what it takes to be a succesful and happy physician or even get through med school. </p>

<p>Your son's job now is to be the best 18 year old he can be... not to game the system four years hence. Even if his interest in medicine continues during college, it may lead him to a PhD, a degree in Public Health, an interest in Health Policy and Economics, vs. being a practicing physician. For all those reasons... he should find a college which is the best fit along a number of dimensions, and then work hard on developing intellectually once he's there. The rest will sort itself out.</p>

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<p>Hi Cami, MD Mom with a daughter in pre-med (?maybe?).
I will share the advice I shared with her, for what it is worth.</p>

<p>1) Probably the surest route to med school, with the lowest debt, highest probability of success for the average person is a state university, 2nd tier state school or an in-state LAC, followed by state med school. I understand that in some of the very competitive areas of the NE, perhaps CA, this advice won't fit, but most everywhere else it will. In smaller states like mine, the state U is a pipeline to med school, with all the systems in place to support juniors who have made it through the gauntlet of science classes. For the person who wants a smaller school, or to avoid those huge science classes, in most cities with med schools there are 1 or 2 small LACs in the area that have established relationships with the med school/hospital for research and volunteer opportunities. The science faculty and pre-med advisers in these small LACs "vet" the applicants to some extent, support and nurture them, etc. The med school knows through experience that when one of these kids comes with high recommendations, s/he is a good candidate. Does this mean that not everyone gets a recommendation? Sometimes, that is the downside of all this nurturing, if you get on the bad side of someone, there may be no place to hide.&lt;/p>

<p>2) You need really good grades to get into med school. You can game the system, do whatever you want, paint the story, dress it up, dress it down, whatever, but you cannot change the basic fact that one needs really good grades for admission. I hesitate to give numbers because the process is not entirely numbers driven, and it is impossible to know what the floor would be. I've seen the number 3.5 for "a good shot" bandied about, but who knows. I do know that if one majors in a non-science, science grades should be just that much better.
The thing about getting good grades is that it depends to some extent on your personality which route is best for you. Some people can beat the curve, and need tha anonymity of big classes. Others need to be number one in a small pond in order to assert themselves enough to get good recommendations (this was me).</p>

<p>3) You can major in anything, in fact, humanities majors might have some edge, but the science grades have to be top notch.</p>

<p>4) Don't go to a "pre-med factory" - my bias.</p>

<p>5) Don't do a 7 year med program - again my bias, but most doctors I know would agree, I even know one whose son was admitted to one of these programs, and talked him out of it. The vast majority of kids at 17 are not ready to make that kind of decision, and the ones who think they are ready are the scariest of all.</p>

<p>6) The most important single thing about the college is the quality of the pre-med advising - do they have opportunities for volunteering, becoming an EMT, learning phlebotomy, working in a clinic, shadowing MDs, doing research (notice that research is last). How do they advise the kids who are have second thoughts/ not doing so well in organic? The bitter truth is that overall only a few of the pre-meds will actually go to med school, even at an Ivy it might only be 1/3, how are the students supported in their decision-making.</p>

<p>7) I told my daughter that she had the luxury of going to school without being entirely focussed at the beginning on what she was going to do - do some discovery, take classes that are interesting to you. Keep taking the sciences if you are doing well, if you aren't doing well in science - stop, get more practical exposure to medicine, then decide if want to continue to pursue that dream (if so, that is the time to look at post-baccalaureate opportunities, easier schools, etc). Medicine is numbers driven enough that to get into a state med school, the kid with straight As from the 2nd tier school who has a demonstrated passion for medicine, and can articulate it, may have a better chance than the Ivy graduate with lesser grades - I do think, though, they cut engineers a little slack, so they might take notice of an MIT grad.</p>

<p>Good luck to your child Cami, always have a back-up plan!
&lt;/p>

<p>EDITTED
It took me awhile to post, so to add to the other great advice. I'm giving practical, sort of no-nonsense advice if you will. My first advice to my daughter was to go to the school that felt was best for her, do her best, and get exposure to medicine first. If she still wants to be a doctor, after all the whining she hears at home and from Mom's friends, then the path that will maximize her chances will be clear at that point - probably sometime about sophomore year. You do have to jump through hoops, and there is a certain amount of "gaming" to be done, but you should pick your college first because it seems to be right for you, then work with the situation you have, because, if you picked properly in the beginning, you should have the best opportunity for success.</p>

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<p>Hubbell's dad comments:</p>

<p>Cangel and I can be counted on to speak up on topics such as this. I, like Cangel, am a physician with a premed child(son, a junior at elite LAC). I agree with Cangel to some extent. I became a physician by her route. I attended a large, second tier state university in my home state(Pennsylvania) followed by attending medical school(at Penn State). What I learned is that if you go to a large state school, it can work, but you better be at the top(I was summa cum laude and one of only a small handful from the school who got accepted from zillions of premeds). When I arrived at medical school, I had a large number of classmates from some nearby LAC's(Franklin and Marshall was the biggie) who had lots of students there-and they got accepted with much lower GPA's than mine(but equal MCAT scores) and it became clear to me the medical school admission cmte's like those small LAC grads. So, what did I advise my son(since he was in a different financial sitiuation than I came from-thanks to my hard work!)-I advised him to go to one of the elite LAC boutique schools. At his school, which actually is known for grade deflation, the average GPA of a successful medical school applicant is only 3.3-3.4(but high MCAT scores are the norm)-how do they do it? As Cangel said, they nuture the studnts, the college has an excellent reputation with medical schools and they know from experince what type of student they get from the school. My son will be applying this coming summer and he has done all the thing's cangel suggested- shadowing MD's, actually rotated at academic medical centers on various teams working as a medical student, did research over the summer at a medical school and will be spending a month in Zambia this coming summer working as a medical missionary-the college knows what medical school adcoms love to see, and sees to it that the serious premed does these things-you would never get that at a large state school. Just my thoughts, having been there myself and living through it again-vicariously through my son.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Obviously, many students get into med schools from places like Chicago and Swarthmore, yet others would say this doesn't take into account the many more who fall by the wayside, and that the numbers falling by the wayside are considerably fewer at a school with grade inflation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think there is evidence to suggest that getting into med school is unusually difficult from a place like Swarthmore. Just the opposite.</p>

<p>85% of their graduates who applied to med school in 2004 were accepted (this includes seniors and alum applications). The Health Sciences Advisory Committee does not have a cut-off; they support all applications.</p>

<p>The average GPA of those accepted students was a 3.45. The average MCAT was a 31.9. The average Swarthmore GPA last year for students accepted into Ivy League med schools was a 3.75.</p>

<p>The Health Sciences committee suggests that a Swarthmore GPA of 3.3 or higher is a "solid basis" for applying to medical school, meaning that, all things being equal, they expect that they can get you accepted to med school. That's a GPA that would include roughly half of Swarthmore graduates.</p>

<p>I think that there is something inherently disturbing about staying away from colleges with demanding academic programs to increase the odds of becoming a physician. I mean, if you follow that to its extreme conclusion, why not just go to the local community college?</p>

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<p>I don't think anything of the sort was suggested. The only question is whether someone who falls in the bottom half of their class at Swarthmore (or like) might have done better (not class rank, but med. school future) had they gone elsewhere. With graduate school, I'd likely be comfortable saying no; with med. school, I honestly think it is an open question. (Less open, I think, if one considers JHU.)</p>

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<p>I'm totally with mikemac. It's scary how many kids enter college as "pre-meds" - most of those will drop it once they realize how much else there is to do in this world besides medicine and law.
Med school admissions is a lot of numbers but that definitely isn't all of it. Med schools are much more concerned about the whole person than undergrad schools are, and since the average med school class is about 70-100 people, they have the ability to do a lot more (interviews, secondaries - i.e. more essays, etc) to figure out who they want to take. Like mikemac said, experience in the medical field is mandatory. You can't honestly know why you want to go to medical school unless you have some exposure to medicine. Also, major in whatever you want. Keep your grades up, but don't freak out over a C or two - as long as you have mostly As and Bs and a good MCAT score, you're set as far as numbers go (average GPA for accepted med school applicants is around a 3.3-3.7). Worry about growing as a person and understanding why you want to do whatever it is with your life.</p>

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<p>Cami,
Last year at the MIT boards there was a student (who wasn't pre-med) counseling kids to not attend because of the less than 99% admit rate from MIT to medical school. I challenged this on several counts. First, MIT has unparalleled access to (and nearly the expectation for) undergraduate research. There is huge access to hospitals as well. At least the first semester is P/F so the kids have a chance to get over the hurdle of how to work at MIT without killing their GPA. After MIT any medical school curriculum is a breeze.Everyone works very hard of course, many people even harder than premeds in fact! But, I think I might have overlooked one salient issue. At MIT, the undergraduate degree requirements are such that nearly every student has all the pre-reqs to apply to medical school- hence, almost no one gets weeded out because everyone is doing all the courses anyways. I would have to say as well that MIT was, at least when I was premed, a very cooperative learning environment. </p>

<p>Now to the bigger picture...kids should go to college where they want to go to college. At some point, they have to get off the 'looking good for the next level' tract and start to live for the moment. The incremental differences in med school admissions mean very little if you are not happy at the school you are attending- or if you forever regret not giving something else a try...</p>

<p>For the vast majority of physicians, attending the State U medical school is fiscally and professionally the optimal option in any case (this was discussed on a long thread last year)- This is not to say that you have to go to the state U undergrad or to a local LAC- only that unless you are VERY convinced that only the highest levels of research and academic medicine will suit you, there is very little of substance that separates the medical schools themselves (but actually, that is not what you are asking about, I know that!)...</p>

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<p>FWIW, there are those who say of Brown that it is hard to get an A, and relatively easy to get a B. Don't know if that would impact your S, Cami, but it might be worth thinking through.</p>

<p>Brown's Daily Herald reported on the 6th that the school is considering going to a +/- system; presently they give only whole grades.</p>

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<p>This is a wonderful thread. I thank you all for sharing your insights. Very informative and helpful.</p>

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<p>FWIW, both my kids did/are doing premed; one at Brown, the other at Harvard (freshman). My husband is a physician who interviews for his alma mata (med school). This is what I can say from what they've told me:
My husband feels that med schools know about the tougher undergrad programs and factor that in. A 3.5 from Chicago is not the same as a 3.5 from SUNY Binghamton ( a good state school). He feels that my son should not overly stress about grades...he will do fine as long as he has a B+ or better coming from Harvard. I think he would say pretty much the same for the so-called elite schools, including Brown.
My daughter, tho having decided against med school, did the entire pre-med curriculum at Brown. She worked hard, but did exceedingly well. She majored in psych, and was careful in balancing her courses each semester (eg.never took two lab courses at once, etc.) She was able to be involved in several extra-curriculars, and to be active socially. She did have friends who struggled quite a bit with pre-med courses, and eventually pursued other paths. Another was able to handle it while completing an engineering major! However,I do definitely believe that the workload at Chicago, Swarthmore, and Cornell is more intense than at Brown.</p>

<p>Anyway, all this is anecdotal, of course. I don't know if my husband's perspective is respresentative of schools other than his own. I admit to having heard similar advice as what the OP outlined from other parents of pre-meds.</p>

<p>I think another factor to consider is how strong your child is in the sciences. A student who has always excelled in challenging science classes---whose mind just tends to work that way, will probably be fine, even at a "tougher" school. However, if that's not the case, but medicine is their passion, then the choice of undergrad school should perhaps be made with extra care.</p>

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<p>All of this talk about brown being the easiest! </p>

<p>I don't think its easy at all. Then again, if I only took 1 lab course at a time, and only took 4 courses, and took some pass fail, it could be easier--right now I have 3 out of 5 science courses and 2 with labs, no SNC. Brown isn't easier, there are just more options to work the system with the lack of core, SNC, etc.</p>

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<p>GHBrown08: I never said Brown is easy. Quite the contrary. My d. was totally challenged in every way...by professors, by fellow students, and not just in the hard sciences. And during midterms and finals, she was as stressed as anyone. I also agree with you that the main thing about Brown is the flexibility, which makes it such a fabulous place. (BTW, my d. never took any pre-med or course in her major pass/fail. Only a couple of electives, and I think they were mandatory p/f--like her acting class.) What I did say (and its just my impression from talking to kids and parents) is that the work load at the three schools I mentioned is somehow even more inundating.</p>

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<p>Hubbell's Dad - I agree with you completely, in fact, your son is at the school that I think probably has one of the best pre-med programs in the country. </p>

<p>I give this advice not because I think that it is the BEST thing for any given student to do - hey my kid is at Dartmouth considering French, history and art history majors, she didn't listen to my advice.</p>

<p>There are several routes to medicine, and since the majority of 17 year olds considering medicine are going to end up doing something else, I think the best answer for the child looking for colleges to apply to, is find the best fit that is affordable, because your happiness and eagerness to learn and grow, will maximize your chances of excelling. Personally, I think the small LAC or smaller state school, are the surest routes, because of the chance to get to know professors and the opportunity to be a star. But those schools aren't for everyone, and if you go to a school that has fewer opportunities for you, what happens when you don't get into med school?</p>

<p>The true, but unsatisfying answer is to excel where you feel the best fit. </p>

<p>As for strategy or gaming - some strategizing has to go on, that why the kids have to line up internships or shadowing opportunities - but too much strategizing can cause one to lose sight of the real goal, make good grades in science courses at a 4 year institution, top MCAT scores, and always, always be asking yourself is this really for me and why. </p>

<p>The best strategies are the simple ones - if there is a course that you have to take solely for the MCATs or for a particular school, usually physics or calculus, that's the one to consider taking away from your home institution - especially if it frees up a slot for another course you really want ot take at that college, or to allow a trip abroad, etc. Don't take organic with any other "tough course", or take fewer hours during organic year. (Now back in my day when I slogged to organic class in the snow, uphill, I took it with physics, but I was one of those nutty people who thought organic was the best class I took in college). Figure out beginning semester 1, how you can get to know some profs - don't stalk the poor people, just think about things like campus jobs, research, clubs/activities, asking questions personally. Be active in the pre-med organization, go to the talks by MDs, even if it seems a little hokey and ?brownnosing? - it is like a 4 year campaign to get a job, if you are trying to be hired, you try to impress your employers and do what they ask of you. Learn as much as you can about what medicine is really like so you can make an informed decision. Study. Take archaeology or sociology or music or whatever is just interesting.</p>

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<p>First, I can't say thanks enough for all the thoughtful replies on this thread. There is a wealth of advice both in terms of choosing an undergrad school and what's the best approach to take on your activities and major after you finally get there. I'm going to make a paper copy of all this, share it with him (after his exams), and pour over it very closely myself.</p>

<p>A fwe comments and then a lengthy response (bear with me, please).....</p>

<p>First, we just heard my son has an opportunity in January during his school's interim semester to shadow a doctor for a week at the UT Health Science Center. He's very excited about this. He's also talked about the possibility of doing volunteer work next summer in some kind of a health related institution. Houston is a good city for that. Last summer, he worked in a lab at Chicago for several weeks. </p>

<p>** Cangel - ** </p>

<p>I originally brought the 7 year and other combined BA/MD programs to my son's attention, but he had the good sense to say no. He doesn't feel ready to commit to something at this point with that degree of certainty. I think he made the right choice.</p>

<p>A state school is also a possibility. He has guaranteed admission at UT Austin under the 10% rule and is applying to UVa where he is considered instate as a legacy. We're fortunate to be able to handle the bills so he'll pick the school he feels best about. He is interested in Emory because the CDC is there, and opportunities for internships seem especially plentiful. </p>

<p>I also appreciate your comments on the scheduling of Org Chem. Sounds like good advice to cut back on something else. </p>

<p>** Blossom ** </p>

<p>You make a good point. Even if son sticks with medicine, there are other avenues besides becoming an MD. One of the things that attracts son to Emory is the presence of the CDC and the fact that it has such a good public health school (albeit mainly for grad students). And I can also imagine him deciding to go on to grad school in biology and ending up in a lab. It's much to early to put his eggs in one basket. Still, the M.D. basket is the biggest and heaviest one currently, with many eggs spilling over the sides!</p>

<p>** GHBrown08 ** </p>

<p>I definitely agree Brown isn't easy. I went to grad school there and developed many premature grey hairs! But I think you've identified the major difference. Few schools give students so much control of their schedule. By using that power wisely, a pre-med could at least minimize some problems. With a school like Chicago that has a large core, you have somewhat fewer choices in this regard. </p>

<p>** interesteddad - **</p>

<p>I understand. I kicked and clawed my way through a Ph.D. in medieval studies at a time when academic jobs were so tight that the degree had very little monetary value. I had only limited financial support. I did it because I loved the subject. My husband was in a similar situation. Because of the academic job market in the seventies, we both had to go back and earn a second "more practical" degree, since we preferred to have enough money to keep eating.</p>

<p>Having said that, we raised our children not to shrink from a challenge and to value the kind of education that you get from a tough liberal arts curriculum. Some of that has apparently rubbed off on our son. He is inherently attracted to places like Chicago and Swarthmore that have a reputation for demanding a lot from students. He is also interested in Brown (an even further reach) because he'd have control over his schedule and could take some crazy wide-ranging subjects he's interested in. But we do want to at least consider what are the implications of all this in terms of a possible pre-med program.</p>

<p>I think ** Mini ** is right in stressing the difference between grade deflation and weed-out. Schools like Swat and Chicago are very demanding in regard to workload and grades but they do not intentionally weed out students. Because of their demanding curriculum, their students are likely to score well on MCAT, and many of them get into med school. The percentages admitted are very high. But it is also true that some students at such schools may fall by the wayside; such individuals might have survived as pre-meds at a school that was not quite so demanding. You have to realize and accept this risk going in, I believe. </p>

<p>I am far more leery of true weed-out places, and they do exist. We are also leery of places where things are so competititive that the students stab each other in the back. ** Jenskate ** is right. Whatever program a student is in, it's important that the kids try to help each other. </p>

<p>We have intentionally not applied to JHU. I went there for a year in history and it was fine. Pre-med is something else. Of the schools on son's list, there's just one that we need to find out more about in terms of these issues. But that will come later...</p>

<p>Again, thanks everyone so much.</p>

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<p>Just one more comment, and that has to do with the personality of the young person. I would recommend a small LAC (if a fabulous fit and the student loves it) especially for the quiet person who might be a little lost in the crowd - and whence not obtain the opportunities for research that are, as has been mentioned, so very important.</p>