<p>Thanks again. We are still discussing it and trying to look up whether the home school has some of the AP classes she would like. We discussed a few different scenarios and I think it is looking like she will make the switch. She does have some friends at the home school, but they are all in the magnet program that that school offers. </p>
<p>Your detailed replies and suggestions are really appreciated. This is so helpful.</p>
<p>okay so this is not really related to the thread topic...but i've noticed that some people in this thread are under the illusion that IB SL Math is equivalent to Calculus AB. It is NOT! (someone who took half of IB SL Math and Calculus AB).</p>
<p>IB SL Math is not equivalent to AP AB Calculus, but some schools design their courses to prepare students for both tests. </p>
<p>At the IB school my daughter attended, some of the material on the IB SL Math test was covered in a precalculus course specially designed for IB students, and the rest was covered in whatever calculus course -- BC, AB, or a less rigorous course that does not prepare students for the AP test -- that a student chose to take afterward. All IB students were required to take some sort of calculus course. </p>
<p>This arrangement worked out well at this particular school; practically everybody got a 5 or higher on the IB SL Math test, and many also got college credit for AB or BC Calculus. Other schools, however, incorporate the IB requirements into their math programs in other ways.</p>
<p>Count me as another parent who found that the intensity of junior year IB really ratcheted up from the pre-IB 9th and 10th grade programs. (Not that his school's pre-IB program was slack, by any means! It was excellent preparation for this year's onslaught.) S2 has been doing IAs for one class since December, and has an IA oral for another class on Saturday.</p>
<p>One message we have heard from IB alums at S2's school is that 1) college is easier than IB, and 2) there was a fair contingent who decided that they were not going for the brass ring by applying to certain competitive schools. BTDT, don't want the t-shirt.</p>
<p>"Students at my daughter's IB school have been told -- both by their own IB program staff and by college admissions officers -- that college admissions people are impressed with the fact that a student is an IB diploma candidate."</p>
<p>Colleges are equally impressed when students take AP-intensive programs. I've heard this from admissions officers at places like Harvard, Duke, and Johns Hopkins.</p>
<p>owlice, Thank you for sharing your pov and I'm sorry that you were subjected to such ignorance (repeatedly)</p>
<p>WP, It's important for all of us to learn to balance our lives. You've raised a self-aware daughter who is a step ahead of many of us at her age. Best of luck to both of you.</p>
<p>
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"Students at my daughter's IB school have been told -- both by their own IB program staff and by college admissions officers -- that college admissions people are impressed with the fact that a student is an IB diploma candidate."</p>
<p>Colleges are equally impressed when students take AP-intensive programs. I've heard this from admissions officers at places like Harvard, Duke, and Johns Hopkins.
Northstarmom is offline
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<p>Absolutely!</p>
<p>The distinction I was attempting to make was between IB Diploma candidates and students who are simply taking an IB course or two for the certificates. An AP-intensive curriculum can easily be as rigorous as the IB Diploma program and is certainly just as impressive.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One message we have heard from IB alums at S2's school is that 1) college is easier than IB, and 2) there was a fair contingent who decided that they were not going for the brass ring by applying to certain competitive schools. BTDT, don't want the t-shirt.
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<p>Oh, yes. They love college. In college you get to SLEEP. And some of them even have time for social lives. (I talked to my daughter last night on her cell phone. She wasn't in her dorm studying, or even in the library. She was visiting a friend. On a WEEKNIGHT. This would have been unthinkable in high school. And she's not goofing off. She's a sophomore in college and has yet to get a grade below A minus.)</p>
<p>But in all fairness, I think that some IB programs are not as intense as the one at the school your younger son attends and my daughter graduated from. This particular program prides itself on the fact that its students never fail the IB tests (some kids don't get the diploma for other reasons -- such as failing to turn in an EE or an EA/IA, but nobody who actually sits for the exams fails them). It also has as many of its courses as possible designed to prepare students for BOTH the AP and IB exams in the subject in question. I think that both of these factors combine to make the curriculum harder than absolutely necessary. And they may be responsible for the fact that graduates of this program don't just think that our flagship state U is easier than high school; many of them think that top-20 universities are easier than high school.</p>
<p>Let her make the decision. Life is too short. She has to go with her gut. And you have to let her. Adcoms will see the strength it took to make a change, as well as her GPA while she was in the program. </p>
<p>We lost a smart, funny, intuitive but tormented child this week in our community. Her parents can't do a "do-over."</p>
<p>WHile I think only the parents and the child should make this decision, be aware that there are social implications to dropping out of IB. Primarily you will be faced with a very smart child who suddenly has a ton of free time. From what I have seen, some of the students who have dropped out of IB either as juniors or just before senior year have engaged in excessive partying and risky behaviors. I am NOT saying that an IB diploma kid can't do the same thing, but a child who has been used to working hard and suddenly has more time on their hands can lead to trouble. Also OP mentioned that the home school is just average, so I have to wonder about the quality of the APs there. On the flip side, senior year in IB is very rough through February (Eng orals, History paper, TOK paper, EE) and then there is the May testing. So be aware that your daughter would have a similarly stressful first half of senior year and then there are college apps layered on top of all that IB work. As a parent you need to determine why she wants to leave the program and if you decide together to drop out, stay involved with her schedule at the home school and make sure to get her involved in academic ECs that will fill her time productively. I have had two children go through the IB diploma program (second is a senior now).
As for colleges, it is best to do well in a rigorous program, but if the student is not doing well in it, I don't believe it helps college admissions to stay. We have seen some IB students rejected from our state flagship due to a single D in an IB class. It does not appear that they were given the benefit of consideration of the difficulty of the courses on the down side, but definitely do get the benefit on the up side. Good luck with your decision.</p>
<p>I spoke to the GC and she told me that this happens often at this stage of the IB program. She said that she has some strategies she could share with D. BUT, she then told me she was not going to be able to meet with her for the next two weeks because of FCAT testing! I was amazed. I asked her if she really thought it was OK to wait when D is in crisis right now. She said she could come find her at lunch. I will call the "home" school guidance dept. to see how helpful they will be.</p>
<p>Thank you for your replies. I had not really considered the social/psych aspects of having free time on her hands. Sounds divine at this point, but could lead to boredom/depression/self-doubt, etc. The more opinions the better, because you all have more to add than I could think of myself and that helps in all situations. I guess we are returning to the "it takes a village" concept of raising children, it is just a virtual village.</p>
<p>Whirledpeas, my D is also a full IB student and considered dropping full IB about now last year as a JR. This was also the time she was supposed to begin working on her Senior Essay/project, and she was not bonded w/ her IB Biology teacher, which is the subject she would like to pursue in college. She also was being told by Senior IB diploma candidates that gettng a diploma didn't help you with colleges. I think what the seniors were saying is that many colleges only give credit for the 3 HL classes, and not for the SL ones, unlike AP which gives credit to all AP classes that you test in. She eventually decided to do her senior thesis in English, which took a load off her mind, and she couldn't think of any IB classes for her Senior year that she would change, so is just about ready to graduate with her IB diploma. </p>
<p>I personally think that the AP US History class she took as a Sophomore was harder than any of her IB classes. The IB has more writing, but that is a strength of my D, so was not a problem. </p>
<p>How I handled this was to tell her I would support her whatever she chose, but asked her to explore all her options thrououghly before she made a final decision. From the beginning I told her it didn't matter to me if she actually got the diploma or not. I also think once she got a topic she liked and began writing about it, the stress was relieved.</p>
<p>I guess what struck me is how much your daughter is actually communicating...directly...about what she dislikes about the program. It sounds like you two have a pretty good relationship and that she trusts you. Which is awesome. </p>
<p>Maybe instead of trying to steer her in a certain direction, at this age, help her to clarify the pros and cons...and then support her in whatever she chooses. Maybe just listen...and listen...and nod your head...and sometimes, say something like..."that must be really hard on you" or "you must be really confused,"....you know, the whole mirroring thing. And let her figure it out. I'd worry less about communicating values or mixed signals at this point...if she made it into the program, she's obviously dedicated, hard working and smart. In a way, it's kind of a luxurious dilemma...the IB magnet or some AP classes...either way, I'm sure your daughter will do very well.</p>
<p>Your daughter may have a useful resource other than the GC.</p>
<p>IB schools are supposed to have an IB Coordinator, although this may not necessarily be a full-time job. Providing guidance to IB students is part of this person's job, and I don't think the IB Coordinator would necessarily be prejudiced in favor of urging kids to stay in the IB program, no matter what. The IB Coordinator at my daughter's school actually urged some kids who were struggling or ill-suited for the program to leave.</p>
<p>If your daughter can't get an appointment with the GC promptly, perhaps she could see the IB Coordinator.</p>
<p>If the IB coordinator and GC are like the ones at my Ss' IB school, they will do whatever they can to convince your D to stay in the program and receive the IB diploma. Due to the fact that IB is an expensive program that also has to justify its expense and success rate, my local IB program does not want students to leave the program, and as a result will give students advice that is not in their best interest. The program particularly doesn't want to lose students who are high achieving and will boost or maintain the percentage of students obtaining the IB diploma.</p>
<p>It's interesting how different IB Coordinators and GCs seem to have different priorities.</p>
<p>Some may indeed want to keep enrollment up, as Northstarmom indicates, but others may be more concerned about the possibility that a student who is unhappy in the program might not complete the full diploma, thereby reducing the school's pass rate.</p>
<p>In either case, I guess you have to be prepared for the possibility that the IB Coordinator and GC may not have your daughter's welfare as their only priority.</p>
<p>When my sons complained about the IB program -- which both of them had chosen to be in -- I let them know that I would support their decision to stay or to leave.</p>
<p>Older S decided to stay, and hated the program so much that he didn't bother to go to graduation. It turned him off completely on formal education, and he dropped out of college after one year, and at age 25 hasn't returned. In the real world, he has been disappointed that few people have heard of IB (This was true even at the out of state public flagship he attended), so he doesn't feel his hard work in IB got the recognition he expected.</p>
<p>Younger S started thinking about leaving IB the summer before senior year when while visiting colleges, admissions officers advised him to take an additional year of math in case he decided to major in engineering, a field he was considering. S had entered high school with 2 years of high school math, and had completed the IB math sequence junior year. Due to the courses his program offered, there was no way he could take another year of math.</p>
<p>The week before fall semester, S decided to switch to our excellent zoned school. It was an excellent decision. An unexpected surprise was that he ended up being with students who truly loved learning, and he had teachers who taught happily because they weren't micromanaged (what the IB coordinator did to teachers), and they also were in a school with a well run administration.</p>
<p>Later, S admitted that a big reason that he had chosen IB in the first place was that he had wanted to avoid our state's PE requirement, something that IB students were excused from. Now that he's in a LAC with a PE requirement -- a PE requirement that opened his finally finding sports that he LOVES-- he realizes how silly it was to have selected an academic program in order to avoid taking PE.</p>
<p>It's a lesson, however, he wouldn't have learned if H and I hadn't left the choice of high school up to him. Before he made up his mind, we made sure that he checked out our local high school's offerings as well as IB's, but since the programs were both good programs, we left the decision in his hands.</p>
<p>There are so many perspectives on this. But people need to realize that this has nothing to do with the IB program. Some really need to look beyond this. Some towns/districts have magnet schools and such where IB is done. This can be difficult for some students who have to leave most of their friends behind in a different school. Some areas, like ours, IB is in the same school that the kid would have been in anyway. Gets to see friends and such at lunch, before/after classes, during electives where our IB kids are taking an elective that some of their friends are in. E.g. shop, music, computers, etc... So socially, IB can be difficult for some. But again, it's not really IB; it's the school/district that has the IB program.</p>
<p>Some schools run the IB program so different, that the student doesn't have tome to do anything for themselves. Some schools run it just like a normal curriculum with a much more structured program. I.e. My kids; both made it through 4 years of IB; were on varsity sports, choir, orchestra, city league sports, and many other social activities that many we hear taking the IB program on the forums say their kids CAN'T do. So again; it's NOT necessarily an issue with IB, but rather with the school.</p>
<p>And as curiou77 mentioned; an IB student who's been in it for 3 years and decides to go back to traditional classes their last year, should definitely be watched carefully. I/we have seen way to many times problems. This student was holding a 3.5 or better in IB. For whatever reason wanted to leave. Now; they don't even have to do home work. Most are able to get their classes, homework, projects, etc... done in class or in no time at all. Many who recognize this, fall into the trap of thinking that they are already above the classes they are now taking and they don't even try. They really start slacking. Before long, this 3.5 gpa, with IB classes is pushing a 3.0 gpa or less without IB. That is why I recommended that if the OP student had completed 3 of the 4 years of IB, and they wanted to quit, and the parent says OK; that I recommended that they load the student up with as many AP classes and they can take. Assuming of course that the student academically belonged in the IB program in the first place. There's a lot of people who get their kids in the IB program who had no business doing so. Some believe that their kid is just as good and deserves the same opportunities as everyone else. In theory, they are correct. In reality; that isn't so. The truth is; not every kid can handle the IB program. Just like not every kid can handle AP classes in every subject. And to go further; as much as parents hate to hear this, not all of your children are meant to go to college. Some parents think by giving their children every educational opportunities; e.g. enrolling in IB, AP classes, honors, expensive college, etc... that you are providing them the tools to be successful. Well, that's not always true. There are some students who really don't need or want college. There are some students that need to learn more social skills in high school and needs to be in a traditional school where they have more free time to develop these social skills. There's some students who really want to pursue certain things in life that don't require a harvard degree. There's some that are really meant to go to a community college. Parents need to learn more about their kids and what they want; and not want they think the kids SHOULD do when they grow up. But once you have a good idea; (Not something you learn all of a sudden when they are 16 years old); you needs to help them get there. Maybe it's the IB program. Maybe AP classes. Maybe just a traditional curriculum. As long as you realize that not every student was meant to be in advanced classes and go to prestigious colleges, then it usually works out. It's when you force them to go a direction they weren't meant to go where you run into problems.</p>
<p>I made both my DD's go to the IB presentation in 8th grade, but ultimately both decided that it wasn't for them because it was too restrictive and it wouldn't let them pursue some elective paths they wanted (for my older one the Health Science path.) However, my oldest's best school friends are in IB and they are all juniors now. My dd who is taking all AP & Honors classes is enjoying her junior year, but her IB friends are just stressed beyond belief: exhausted, frazzled, etc. It is not pleasant to hear about and I am glad that my kids have not chosen that path for their mental health's sake. FWIW, when I went to the parents meeting about IB, I asked what going to IB route would do for my child as opposed to just cherry picking AP & honors classes. The answer that I got was "when it's time for them to apply to colleges, we stamp IB Candidate on every page and that really gets college's attention." To say that that answer didn't impress me is an understatement :) Our school also has a pretty low graduation/completion rate for the IB kids in terms of the number of kids who start IB vs. who graduate w/an IB diploma (I don't mean that they drop out of HS.) This years graduating class started with about 70 kids signing up as IB in Freshman year (even though they don't take any special classes until junior year) but they will only graduate 13 with IB diplomas. Given that kids who self-select into IB are cream of the crop students to begin with, I think that such a low percentage complete the program is quite telling.</p>
<p>DD is taking History of the Americas IB next year without being in IB as they will let non-IB kids in with a teacher recommendation. </p>
<p>Good luck with your DD's decision. I have a pretty holistic philosophy about my kids and while I want them to challenge themselves, I'd hate to see them stressed out for a long period of time (I mean if it's just the week a big paper or test is coming up, that's different.) Trust your (and her) gut.
RobD</p>
<p>I would suspect that the schools who have lower IB Diploma pass rates have kids who are more stressed. S2's school runs at a 98-100% full diploma pass rate with 100-105 graudating each year; the teachers and administrators know what the kids need to do to succeed and there are institutional supports. (Doesn't mean that the semi-quarterly wave of 16,000 things due at once still doesn't drive us all nuts!) As I've posted earlier, wheen S2 was struggling with Pre-IB math, we got some excellent advice from the Coordinator and teacher about alternative tracks, which relieved a lot of the pressure (and he is now back on the original track, no worse for wear). Dropping out of the program here means going back to one's home high school. Depending on the home HS, that in itself may be sufficient motivation to gut it out. </p>
<p>OP, it seems everyone in junior year IB complains A LOT about the stress and workload (even if they love what they're doing). When S was deciding whether to attend, he found a ton of FB groups dedicated to complaining about IB! Fortunately, he knew folks who were already there and was able to get a better sense of reality vs. kvetching. </p>
<p>afadad, at some IB programs (esp. where it's a selective admit or one IB program for an entire county), kids may have long commutes to and from school, which can limit EC participation. That was part of the calculation S2 had to make in deciding whether to attend. We are fortunate that IB was 1) the program he really wanted and 2) it was the closest to home of his options (not our local HS, but close enough that he could do sports -- which would not have been an option, due to distance, at the other programs where he was admitted).</p>
<p>Some of you will not like this but....</p>
<p>Allow me to present the **Subversive's Guide to IB Survival<a href="applicable%20only%20to%20U.S.%20IB%20students%20applying%20to%20U.S.%20colleges">/b</a>. This is derived largely from the experiences of my daughter and her classmates at the same school Counting Down's son attends.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Your scores on the IB exams you take as a senior will not affect your life in any meaningful way. They will have no bearing on your admission to college (you don't receive them until July). Your college will not rescind your admission if they are low. (Your college probably won't even ask for them; my daughter's college didn't.) The worst that can happen is that you will not get a few college credits that you might have gotten if your scores were higher. So what? The only IB test scores that matter are the ones on tests you take at the end of your junior year (because colleges may ask what they were), but even these don't matter much (no more than an AP score would). </p></li>
<li><p>It does not really matter whether you get the IB diploma. Again, your college will not care, unless you are planning to attend one of the few colleges that grants sophomore status to IB diploma graduates. The important thing is not receiving the diploma; it's maintaining your status as an IB diploma candidate during high school. This is what looks good on your record. How do you maintain that status? By turning in things on time. It does not particularly matter whether the things are any good. What matters is meeting the deadlines. (IB is all about deadlines.)</p></li>
<li><p>Continuing with the theme of "It does not particularly matter whether things are any good": Unless your school has somehow linked your EE to your grade in a course, you can write a really bad one, and nothing of any significance will happen. All you need to do with the EE is turn something in that's the correct length. On time. It is OK if it sucks. </p></li>
<li><p>The same thing applies to EAs. Your own teachers will not see them, and they don't count toward your grade in the course. You simply have to complete them. On time. They can be terrible. (IAs are different because your teacher will see and grade them. Sorry.)</p></li>
<li><p>In most schools, you get credit for having a "most rigorous" curriculum just because you are a full IB diploma candidate. The exact course choices you make both within and outside the IB program will not affect this. Some options within the IB program are easier than others. So are some electives taken outside the program. It makes sense to go for the easier options as much as possible. You will still experience plenty of IB stress, but you will maintain a larger portion of your sanity, and you will almost certainly have a higher GPA (something that DOES matter).</p></li>
<li><p>Three HLs are plenty. And if you can take one of them in a subject where you already have an extensive background (for example, if you are a native French speaker and have the opportunity to take HL French or if you are a serious instrumental musician and have the opportunity to take HL Music), do so.</p></li>
<li><p>Life is much easier if you do most of your CAS hours in the summer. You can start the summer before 11th grade. You are officially an IB diploma candidate the moment 10th grade ends.</p></li>
<li><p>Always remember that your teachers and IB Coordinator have different priorities than you do. Your priorities are to 1) maintain a good GPA and get good SAT/ACT/Subject Test scores so that you can get into a college that you will like, 2) maintain your IB diploma candidate status, and 3) retain your sanity. Their goal is to have as high a proportion of the people in your class as possible actually get the IB Diploma. Your priorities are more important than theirs.</p></li>
<li><p>College is easier than IB. The worst will be over soon. Keep telling yourself this. It's the truth.</p></li>
</ol>