<p>Thanks you all, AGAIN. The more information I get, the better it is to talk with my D and the GCs involved. She was very open today and really feels that she is an amazing student, but that IB is ruining that. It never occurred to me to suggest she write a EE that basically sucks! I will ask her how she feels about that. I was really leaning toward changing schools at first, but that was kind of a knee-jerk reaction. I just want my baby to feel better. The more time I spend thinking and talking about what options are available, I would like it more if she could find some way to remain in current school. Perhaps suggesting a sucky essay??? She will probably do a great one in the end, but if the pressure is off, she might just feel better. There's that pesky perfectionism at work again.</p>
<p>"It never occurred to me to suggest she write a EE that basically sucks!"</p>
<p>This to me would be a waste of her time, even though it may allow her to stay in IB and get the diploma.</p>
<p>It also is basically what my sons' IB program had students do. The coordinator drilled the students hours on end on the correct format for the EE-- emphasizing things like the format for the title page and bibliography. However, the IB coordinator never suggested that the students use primary sources like oral histories and letters or do other kinds of original research. Those are the kinds of actions that allow students to delve into subjects that they truly care about, and to really learn a lot about research and about the subject. </p>
<p>If a student is simply going to kiss off the EE, the student would be far better off spending their precious free time -- their last year of high school -- delving into an EC, course, or personal activity that does excite them. Doing that kind of experience may give them a valuable perspective and experience that would be life changing. Unfortunately, being guided to kiss off EE just leads to students' developing a cynical and incorrect view about academics, and developing a false idea of what it means to do research.</p>
<p>What can impress colleges about IB is when students pull out the stops to use the EE to delve into a subject they care about. However, colleges are equally impressed when students do that with any productive academic or extracurricular activity.</p>
<p>Oh, Marian. Things have changed. It's harder to be subversive! ;)</p>
<p>Starting for the Class of 2010, the EE <em>COUNTS</em>. One must pass both TOK <em>and</em> EE. If one fails either TOK (not the class, the specific evaluations for same) or EE, must get the highest possible score on the other in order to pass. This is now a condition for the diploma. The current coordinator reported that there were several kids who would NOT have gotten the full diploma under these new rules had they been in effect last year. Those three points are no longer "bonus" so much.</p>
<p>Also -- CAS hours have changed so that it must now build a to crescendo <em>throughout the school year</em> and the IB wants to see leadership as well. They are not as hard-and-fast on the actual number of hours.</p>
<p>I have these docs from the school in hard copy -- will try to find them online this evening so I can post links.</p>
<p>S2 was always committed to the EE anyway -- that was one of his big reasons for going to IB in the first place. He prefers the previous version of CAS, however. He's not so into self-analysis of how his actions change the world. :P</p>
<p>Marian; I agree with a lot of what you say; however it is too much of a blanket statement. Each college is different. So unless you know the colleges you are applying to; and what their requirements and policies are; saying the tests and the diploma don't mean anything is not very accurate. I've researched no less than 25 colleges/universities on their IB policies. Including credits. Most universities preferred the IB diploma program over individual IB classes. However; IB or AP classes is still head and shoulders above taking only traditional classes. Some universities give college credit for even SL classes. I know of at least a dozen. I know of a few universities that will readjust your schedule AFTER you have received the IB diploma (If you get it). I know of at least 3 of the ones I researched that will waiver your entire freshman year. They will bounce 30 credits of Core GER classes against your IB classes and allow you to start as a sophomore. The point is; for many students, the IB diploma might not be that important. But each university is different. The university my daughter went to gave her a semester of credit, and she didn't even get the diploma. My son on the other hand is attending a TOP 10 university and they DON'T GIVE ANY credit for IB. HOWEVER; if the IB program is available (Not many schools actually have it); and you aren't in the program or at least taking AP in EVERY CLASS; you almost don't even have a chance of being accepted. Of the 6 universities he was accepted to; 3 with full rides and 1 with a 75% ride; all of them gave a lot of importance to the IB program and diploma. So again; it depends on the university.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I know of a few universities that will readjust your schedule AFTER you have received the IB diploma (If you get it). I know of at least 3 of the ones I researched that will waiver your entire freshman year. They will bounce 30 credits of Core GER classes against your IB classes and allow you to start as a sophomore.
[/QUOTE]
Which three are these? Public or private? (Public schools are generally more accepting of AP credits.) My son is at a heavily AP H.S. that is adding an IB diploma program.</p>
<p>Marian- great post.</p>
<p>I was interested in afadad's post about some schools offering credit for SL courses, but none of the 13 on D's long list will give credit for an IB SL course. </p>
<p>I'll let you know if the schools care that she wasn't a full IB diploma candidate, (about this time next year). Maybe she should have bent over backwards to be a full candidate, but she would have had to take Math Studies instead of Math which would not have been in her best interest for the future.</p>
<p>There is so much information out there. The easiest; for those who are internet search gurus is to do a basic google search. Put in the words: "Name of school" IB courses. or something like; college credit for IB courses SL. Be creative. </p>
<p>Here's some examples: <a href="http://www.uwrf.edu/admissions/ibtable.pdf%5B/url%5D">www.uwrf.edu/admissions/ibtable.pdf</a> This is a list of IB classes the University Of Wisconsin gives credit for. Some SL classes get credit. Obviously, not all. </p>
<p>University</a> of Kentucky | Office of the Registrar Here; you'll see where the university of Kentucky gives credit for IB classes. Even in many SL classes. </p>
<p>Also; troy high school; which I have no relationship whatsoever with; has in their IB program handout; a section on every college and university in the country with some sort of policy towards the IB program. The link to that doc is <a href="http://www.troyhigh.com/ourpages/auto/2007/9/17/1190038051803/IB%20info%20booklet%202008.doc%5B/url%5D">www.troyhigh.com/ourpages/auto/2007/9/17/1190038051803/IB%20info%20booklet%202008.doc</a></p>
<p>Realize however that it lists even schools like Harvard. That doesn't necessarily mean harvard gives credit for IB. It might simply mean that they recognize the IB program as advanced when considering admission; or for international students. But there are also many other big name schools like MIT, Stanford, UC Berkley, Michigan State, Cornell, and many others that DO give credit. Most are for HL; but some other schools like Marquette offer credit for SL classes. You'll find like I listed above, many of the state schools offer some credit for SL courses. </p>
<p>Didn't mean to change the direction of this thread. But there is a lot of info out there. It is so important that people learn where it is. Hope this info is a starting point.</p>
<p>Quite the lively IB debate. This pushes a lot of buttons based on positive or negative experiences for kids and the ways in which schools run their program. Everyone wants to feel as though they helped their child navigate through a successful high school experience that sparked them intellectually, prepared them well for college and made their days enjoyable. It's painful for parents when this isn't working or if we look back and realize (as Monday morning quaterbacks) that what we thought made sense at the time did more harm than good. Many comments here reflect that pain.</p>
<p>Listen to and support your child. Separate your own anxiety about college admissions, future success, work ethic and all that from what she needs today. It is too easy to become overwrought and think that the universe hinges on these decisions. What's the downside to her dropping IB really? Your daughter is a conscientious, smart kid. Her success in life will be more governed by her ability to know when things are too much, when she feels empowered to monitor, assess and then adjust based on this knowledge and on her security in your unflagging support than by whether she is an IB student. Everybody has a personal tale to tell--but the only important factor is what will provide happiness and relief for your child. Kids drop IB all the time--it is not a comment about her abilities or who she is as a person. It is like getting out of a bad relationship--you can debate whether she should have stuck with it, whether he can change, whether counseling will help, or whether it means that she struggles with relationships --but in the end, all she will feel is relief.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Starting for the Class of 2010, the EE <em>COUNTS</em>. One must pass both TOK <em>and</em> EE. If one fails either TOK (not the class, the specific evaluations for same) or EE, must get the highest possible score on the other in order to pass. This is now a condition for the diploma. The current coordinator reported that there were several kids who would NOT have gotten the full diploma under these new rules had they been in effect last year. Those three points are no longer "bonus" so much.</p>
<p>Also -- CAS hours have changed so that it must now build a to crescendo <em>throughout the school year</em> and the IB wants to see leadership as well. They are not as hard-and-fast on the actual number of hours.</p>
<p>I have these docs from the school in hard copy -- will try to find them online this evening so I can post links.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, dear. They've found some of the loopholes. :(</p>
<p>Sorry about the double post, but the system won't let me edit the other one.</p>
<p>The problem with IB, which my (partially outdated :( ) advice was intended to address, is that it's different in the United States than in most other countries -- and not in a good way.</p>
<p>In most other countries, IB students have only one priority -- doing well in IB. IB is all they do, and IB is what determines their university admissions.</p>
<p>This is not the case for American students seeking admission to American universities. They will NOT be admitted to those universities based on their IB results. They will be admitted on the same criteria as everyone else. They have to deal with questions that would be unthinkable in Europe, such as "How can I plan my IB schedule so that I will also be well-prepared for the SAT Subject Tests?" and "How can I find time to meet the CAS requirement while still maintaining the strong involvement in my favorite activity -- the so-called passion -- that U.S. colleges like to see?" and (perhaps the most common issue) "How can I get an A in this course -- something that is a lot more important to my future than how well I will do on the IB exam that comes at the end of the course?"</p>
<p>U.S. IB students are serving two masters -- the U.S. college admissions criteria AND the IB diploma requirements -- and those masters often require different things. The point of my (now outdated -- sorry) advice was to give students some hints on how they might be able to deal with this very difficult situation. I have seen too many students sacrifice the opportunity to do as well as possible on the criteria that matter to U.S. colleges in favor of doing as well as possible in IB. No matter how the IB rules change, this will never be the best choice for a U.S. IB student seeking admission to U.S. colleges -- unless the colleges change the rules of their game and reward students for IB success rather than judging them on the same criteria as everyone else.</p>
<p>I just wanted to add one more thought.
As the OP's daughter is talking about leaving at the end of her junior year, here are a couple things to keep in mind:</p>
<p>If she changes schools, she should get letters of reference from her current teachers, as she will be applying to colleges before the teachers at the new school get a chance to know her or her work. Also, she will need a letter of reference from the new school's counselor, so she should make sure s/he gets to know her as soon as possible when the school year starts. </p>
<p>Sorry if I missed this, but does she have to complete the full IB diploma? At our school, many of the kids take IB classes, but get a regular school diploma. No ex. essay or CAS hours required. That would take a lot of the stress out of the current school situation.<br>
Of course, an IB magnet school might require 'all IB, all the time'.</p>
<p>Marian and all. Thanks for taking the time for such thoughtful posts. Too bad your info was outdated. It looked like a good out. I did not think she would really write a truly "sucky" essay anyway. If she thought that a sucky one was acceptable, it would have taken off the pressure, and she would have done a great job anyway. That is who she is. I did ask her if that was a possibility, and she knew the new rules. Also, the school is a full magnet, so it is all or nothing. They have a IDP (interdiciplinary) program that she can drop too, but she is not interested. I think the make up of kids in that program is not for her. So, I will call the home school's GC today and just see if they are any more helpful. I also suggested she stalk the GC's office at lunch and immediately after school so she can get a few answers to ease the stress. I know I always feel better when the path is chosen. And all of you are right. It is pretty wonderful that she is being proactive and self-aware in this decision. It cannot be easy to consider leaving school just before sr. year and starting at a new place. I give her a lot of credit.</p>
<p>I think my kids go to the same school Marian and CountingDown are talking about. One key point that Marian made that isn't outdated is that the stress and pressure of IB do not mount over the course of the senior year. Although the HL exams may make a difference in what kind of acceleration and placement you get in college, they will not (in the US) have an impact on what college you get into. The EE is over early in the senior year. So my observation was that the peak of stress was at the end of junior year, and creeping into the beginning of senior year. After that, it gets quite a bit better.</p>
<p>This year, the juniors are also writing the first draft of their EEs over the summer, with the first version due at the end of August. The hope is that it will reduce some of the stress with applications in the fall of senior year. While this limits S's choices of other summer activities, it opens some other windows, too.</p>
<p>Another spring stress buster: if S looks like he will pull 6-7 scores in his HL exams (or credit/placement won't make any difference), the APs for those courses may go out the window.</p>
<p>Going back - anything could have been done to prevent this mounting of work/stress in the junior year? Asking as a mom of a kid who is starting pre IB this fall.</p>
<p>I can only think of three things that could ease the junior year pressure.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If the student's schedule has room for any electives, it would be a good idea to fill those elective slots with the easiest possible courses during junior year.</p></li>
<li><p>If the student has any extracurricular activities that won't particularly impress college admissions officers and that do not help toward CAS, it might be a good idea to drop them for junior year. </p></li>
<li><p>Finally, if the student is taking any IB SL courses where students in the class often take the AP exam as well, the student could consider not taking the AP exam. There's far more pressure associated with AP exams taken during junior year (because college admissions officers will see them) than with those taken during senior year. Of course, this could mean losing out on college credit for a subject, but it might be worth it.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>S2's ECs tend to be seasonal -- so when one wraps up, the other gets going. That seems to help both in the variety of things he's doing, as well as not having EC commitments and coursework pile up.</p>
<p>Our school had 3 electives every semester in the Pre-IB 9th-10th grades. And 2 electives every semester 11th-12th. I made my son take at least 1 elective that did absolutely nothing for him other than to have fun or find something to have a different interest on outside of the normal IB stuff. He's done orchestra; basic computer programming, Weight Room conditioning, psychology, art, and a couple others. It always helped him to have something different than all his serious classes. Plus; 2-3 electives a semester allowed him to spend time with some of his Non-IB friends from the Football team or from the neighborhood.</p>
<p>One other suggestion that occurs to me would be to actively look for ways to improve the student's time management. Perhaps reading a book on time management skills, or a workshop, etc. My son's stress level dropped (and his grades improved) when he improved his study habits. IB has quite a few long-term assignments, and the stress can be crushing if they are left for the last minute. I know (all too well) how difficult it can be to get a teenager to even think about changes of this kind, of course.</p>
<p>The IB program around here seemed very tedious/stressful. I never considered it seriously for any of my kids. We like flexibility and time to explore whatever might come up too much. Instead, my kids ended up doing dual-enrollment at our local community college (free tuition). Is an option like that available to your daughter? It works well for both my kids--the more academic one and the less academic one. They are not being (too) burned out (it can be intense when exams all occur on the same day, or in the same week, which seems to happen pretty frequently), and they are not losing their love of learning. If anything, it's been reawakened--they were getting somewhat tired of high school. It sounds as if your daughter has the time management skills and maturity to do well in a cc setting.</p>