Advice on taking high school courses in middle school

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California's math standard is algebra for 8th graders, which I think is driven by parental desire to have kids taking more advanced classes.

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<p>I'm reasonably familiar with the formation of the California math standards because they were a reference for the formation of new math standards in my state, and because they were much debated in online groups I participated in years ago (with Marite too, each of us using a different screen name from what we use here). The California standards were not driven by any desire at all to be "advanced," but by a desire to be not too far behind. The drafters of the California standards looked at the real-world school standards in several countries both poorer than California and more multilingual than California and saw what those countries could do. Then the California standards were adopted to match the LOWER level of what some other countries carefully studied by the drafters of the standards had already proved was possible. Alas, my state even thought that the California standards are too ambitious, so algebra as an aspiration for all eighth graders is not yet a reality here. Learning algebra well beginning in seventh grade, which is a reality in many countries, takes learning elementary arithmetic much better than most American students learn it. </p>

<p>A really great Web page about math education reform issues is </p>

<p><a href="http://math.berkeley.edu/%7Ewu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/&lt;/a> </p>

<p>by a mathematics professor who trains teachers in California.</p>

<p>We were very sorry dd's school only offered pre-algebra in Jr High, because she then had to take 5 years of math in HS in order to get to calculus.</p>

<p>Wow! You've got all the math moms and dads out tonight! Lots of good advice here. I agree that this is an individual decision that depends on the child. </p>

<p>I've seen two types of kids who advance in math. One is the whiz kid who adores math and has an unquenchable thirst for knowledge. These are the kids that have advanced to AP calculus before they reach high school. </p>

<p>The second type are the kids who a very good in math and bored by the pace of the standard sequence. These kids are ready for Algebra in middle school and could benefit from the opportunity to take more advanced classes in high school. However, in this second group you get some kids who may be good at math, but they don't really care for it that much. If that's the case they may not be motivated to seek out more advanced classes later in high school. A friend of my S's took algebra in the 7th grade and later said he regretted it because he wasn't interested in going beyond AP calculus.</p>

<p>I also agree you have to think about what's available later on if they run out of classes in the high school. However, these days with the availability of on line classes and programs everyone can have access to more advanced work.</p>

<p>I'll chime in, having had two kids take high school level classes in middle school. Of primary concern, was that the kids were challenged, not bored, and working at their individual level. Our elementary school operated that way but our middle school had everyone on the same level of work. My kids had several accomodations made that took advocating as situations like the OP presented here were not in place but we were able to make things happen (which I might add, has benefitted kids who have come after my kids, who have similar learning needs). </p>

<p>Here the norm is Algebra in ninth grade, and then the ADVANCED 8th graders take Algebra. My kids were ready for Algebra in 7th grade. As many know, lots of schools and/or kids in the country take Algebra as 7th graders. Here you would think we were talking of something very out of the ordinary. Here, our 7/8 middle school is at the same facility as the high school which COULD make it very easy to take advantage of high school classes for gifted middle schoolers...you WOULD think, right? LOL.....I can't begin to tell you what it has taken to think outside the box here. I could write reams. Anyway, no need to bus them here but lots of need to get them to see the light. So, both my kids did Algebra in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade, but they did not go into the high school to do it. They worked independently during math time and were given the high school course assignments and tests to do on their own, under the supervision of a willing middle school math teacher. My kids happen to do well in independent study and they were graded and took the high school final exams, and everything. They got high school credit and these credits obtained in middle school ARE on their HS transcript. All their HS classes/credits taken in 7/8 grade are listed with their grades and it says which years they took them in. My older D, since she exhausted the math offerings after junior year (AP Calculus), she took independent AP Calculus BC through Johns Hopkins CTY senior year for which she got credit on her transcript (though we had to pay for the course). </p>

<p>Further, this was an issue for my kids in French as well. Our elem school teaches French starting in first grade. My kids were bored to death in the middle school French classes which consist of French I taken over a two year sequence (slower pace than high school's French I). So, the only thing we could do with D1 was that luckily during her two years of middle school, one French class was taught by the English teacher who was a native French speaker who also operates at high standards and my D was switched into her class which worked at a faster/higher pace. It was better. In ninth grade, a schedule problem arose because she could not get French 2 in her schedule because it took place during Algebra 2 Honors (because it was highly unusual for a freshman to be in that math class so these subjects conflicted for her). First the school said, too bad, she won't take French (this affected three students who had done Geometry as 8th graders....three of the top students in their grade). It was not their fault that they were advanced at math and certainly did not want to give up French as they were advanced at that too. So, this same teacher who really is an English teacher, but is French, volunteered to teach on her break these three students French 2 three times per week, much to the huge criticism of her colleagues (teaching an extra period? shame!). Well, these kids learned SO much that they skipped French 3 the next year and went straight to French 4 as sophs, French 5 as juniors and then two of them (my D and her best friend) did a joint indep. study French 6 as seniors under the supervision of another French teacher they had had for 4&5. One is now majoring in French and the other, my D, loves French and is in advanced levels at college. To think they almost had to give it up due to the schedule. But I digress. </p>

<p>Second D.....same problem with French. School finally wised up to the handful of kids who came from our elem school who really had picked up French and were bored starting over in seventh grade so they let a couple kids take 8th grade French (second half of French I) as seventh graders. So, 8th grade, they had to go into the high school (finally!) to take French 2. So, this D, like her sister, basically skipped a year of French and so was in French 5 as a junior. </p>

<p>Second D is gifted verbally, particularly with writing. She actually is strong at math but could care less about it. I disagree with Northstarmom (though I rarely do!) in that I don't think acceleration in math is just for those who might go into the math and sciences. This kid NEVER will and likely will never take another course in college in either (is a musical theater major) but she still is strong in math (ie., standardized testing, as well as achievement) and needed to work at the appropriate level as she had been doing all through elementary school. I do agree that acceleration is NOT for all kids develomentally, however. Anyway, this D was to have taken writing at the high school with seniors as a seventh grader. Her elementary school had arranged this between the sending and receiving principals and we had this in writing but it fell through based on the teacher, long story, not good....happened as she was to have started this course. However, in 8th grade, she did go to the high school for Creative Writing with 12th grade and also was invited by another high school English teacher to take Shakespeare, primarily with juniors/seniors as well. She got two high school credits for these English courses. She still was in 8th grade English too. She also took Johns Hopkins CTY long distance course in Crafting the Essay which was considered on the level of College Freshman Writing (we had to pay for this but she got credit and she worked on it one period per day at school). For one marking period, she did independent History with the HS History Dept. head but no HS credit for that (I did not care about HS credit at the time, just appropriate level work). By the time she got out of the middle school, she had six HS courses, two math, two French, two English.</p>

<p>Subsequently, my younger D graduated high school a year early, though that was NEVER the plan when she did the high school level work in middle school....it was merely to get appropriate level of work/challenge for her learning needs at the time. But when she wanted to graduate early (mid year in tenth grade, asked us...putting it mildly,lol.....to graduate after junior year), it was possible, in part, due to these credits. Like her sister, she had exhausted the math and French offerings at our school too though could have done indep. study like her sister in 12th grade or just stopped math anyway (older one wanted to continue at math...very strong in that area, more interested in it too). </p>

<p>So, that's my story....even when the school did NOT have such things in place to take high school courses while in middle school (though they offer Algebra to the 8th grade IN middle school), and this is with a middle school attached to a high school. I do recommend accomodating for the level of learning needs. I am entirely in agreement with Marite that the appropriate level of challenge must be there for gifted type learners or they will be bored. So, for the OP, Yes, I would definitely take advantage of this offering at your school if your child really needs this level of math. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>my child also finished high school math in middle school. He was able to take college courses, up to grad level, in high school. (no school in our area would ever have supported this. As homeschoolers, we were able to arrange it ourselves.) The absolute worst thing that can happen to math whiz kids is to allow them to be bored.</p>

<p>If you do not feel that your child is adequately challenged by whatever placement they end up with in the usual math sequence at their school, another option is to look outside the standard curriculum at competition math. Even if a particular child would prefer not to compete, the problem solving involved in competition math is very challenging and valuable in its own right. Check out on-line problem solving courses, materials, and contests at:
<a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.artofproblemsolving.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If I can throw out another side to it, my kid is the only Junior in the school taking AP-Calc and AP Eng. He has told me that he realizes that in the long run, he will be glad that he took these courses early. But right now, he misses his friends. He misses the socialization with the kids he's grown up with. The only people he knows in his AP classes are a few boys from his soccer team. And many of his other classes are advance classes with a limited number of kids -- German 3, Arch. 2, Advanced Honor's Choir.</p>

<p>We have given him more freedom this year with his social life (he joined a garage band!). And he spends a lot more time IM'ing than I would like. But due to the block scheduling, there are days he doesn't see a whole lot of his friends.</p>

<p>Again, I don't regret the fact that he is in these advanced classes. And I wouldn't have changed things, if we had them to do again. This is just one aspect I didn't realize. </p>

<p>Peg</p>

<p>For the past 10 years, my district has been implementing a policy that heavily encourages (<em>pressures</em>) kids to work at as high aa math level as they possibly can. Starting in elementary school kids go into higher grade level classes for math, and then are bussed to the junior high, and then are bussed to the high school. It is now taken as a sign of stupidity among your peers if you are not taking algebra in 7th grade or lower. Not only that, but because this policy has been running for a while the district is all of a sudden finding that almost every high school student is disgusted, tired, and sick of math of all kinds. Some students have run out of math courses to take and must take an online course or go to the local college, and many many students drop math their junior year. Of course, this is discouraged by college admissions officers and by school counselors, but what can they do? They're just plain burned out. In fact, in a couple weeks there's a big parent meeting with the school board to discuss throwing this policy out the window.</p>

<p>The OP's situation is probably nowhere near this kind of problem, but I thought I'd let out some of my frustrations with pushing students ahead when they're younger and everything is easy to learn and they're excited about learning. I think it backfires later down the road!</p>

<p>In many countries of the world, algebra starts in 7th grade. If American students are not prepared to do algebra then, it's because math teaching in earlier grades is such a shambles.</p>

<p>But never mind. None of those who replied to the OP advocates pushing a reluctant student to take more advanced math. We're not discussing policy, but accommodation for an individial student.
Many of us have had to fight so that our kids could receive an appropriate math instruction--which in their cases did not happen to be the grade-level math, or even the next grade level math.<br>
It would have been much easier and less time-consuming for me to sit back and let teachers teach. Except that, by 5th grade, he knew more math than his teacher. Allowing students to be bored can backfire big time. Ask about the airplanes my S flew in math class. His classmates were far more interested in them than in how to do fractions. When he started on calculus, the airplanes stopped flying.</p>

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I thought I'd let out some of my frustrations with pushing students ahead when they're younger and everything is easy to learn and they're excited about learning. I think it backfires later down the road!

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<p>So when exactly should they be pushed to learn?</p>

<p>Our particular county in North Carolina also has an 8th grade Algebra I requirement. The first year they instituted it though, the concern was that there wouldn't be a high enough math classes for students to take in high school. That quickly changed though, allowing for higher AP math courses to be added to the high school curriculum. Most middle schools in our county have what they refer to as a transitions group which is an accelerated learning program beyond the already instituted program. My children have been involved in this which began Algebra I in 7th grade. The workload was significant but it is truly for the students who need it. Our particular middle school has approx 900 students (300 per grade)...one full class, approx 28 kids make up the transitions group. I think that yes, these programs come on the cusp of school systems trying to be stronger, more academic. But I also think that there are just students out there who need it. They shouldn't have to sit in class bored. The great thing about our program is that they are with their peers. They are not moving up to the high school to take classes with older students. They are their own group.... A team. And the important part is also that they can successfully do the work!</p>

<p>I have seen a tremendous push in our high schools for AP courses. Kids who don't necessarily need to be in them being put in them and couselors not letting them out because there is some quota trying to be met. That is absolutely disagree with. I don't feel that a county, city or state school system should be trying to force students into classes they are not prepared to take just for the numbers of it. If 60 % and higher of their students are taking AP classes but many are failing...what does that say. I think on an average, the statistics are something like 28% of kids taking the AP exams are actually passing. Now I am not sure if that is just our state or nationally. I can't quite remember where I read that...will have to check. But I think that is unfair to the students that do not belong in that class. School systems should want to see success in the students taking AP classes. Not just more students taking AP classes... Just my take.</p>

<p>Peggy:</p>

<p>I empathize with your S's situation. It's one my S has experienced since 7th grade when he began to have a differentiated curriculum. In 8th grade, he began to go to the high school for AP-Physics and in 9th grade he began to take college classes. In the AP- Physics class, there were 20 seniors, and 4 juniors--and him.
He wrote his short college application essay on making a special effort to maintain high school friendships through participating in the school's Science Team. As an advanced science student, he was a valuable member of the team; for him, membership was as much about the social aspects as about learning new stuff. He also cherished the 20 minutes he had for lunch for the same reason. Interestingly, perhaps as a result of not being based on taking classes together, his circle of friends became rather diverse in every way.</p>

<p>For kids who like math and are good at it, taking h.s. math as early as they are capable of doing so is the highlight of their school day. They are finally in a class that excites them and with peers who also are excited about a subject that many (including me) find dull.</p>

<p>If they run out of math classes in h.s., that is not their fault: The schools need to continue to meet their needs. My S actually switched into a new school as a senior because, in part, he could continue to take math. </p>

<p>"Some students have run out of math courses to take and must take an online course or go to the local college, and many many students drop math their junior year. Of course, this is discouraged by college admissions officers and by school counselors, but what can they do? They're just plain burned out."</p>

<p>There is plenty of interesting math to learn before algebra and to put a student into any class for any reason other than they are ready for it ususally has some level of repercussions. Out of every 100 students I have seen, about 1 or 2 % were truly gifted in math, with instinct, interest and ability to succeed far ahead of their grade level. About 20% are kids that are understanding around 90% of the material (A students) so their parents try to push them into more advanced classes...many of these kids get frustrated and would have been better off learning 98% of the grade level math. I love math, but I don't think every student has to pass Calculus BC before or even after high school even if that is what his older sister, next door neighhbor, cousin or the child of a friend did.</p>

<p>I think Algebra is the wrong standard for 8th grade because more than a third of the students I see struggle with it, when they could be learning a deeper level of arithmatic or even a beginning geometry. You can blame previous school years, teachers, home life or whatever... I think a standard should be set based on a range of skills that are reasonably accomplished by all students, and I see a fairly large number of 8th graders who are not ready to deal with a problem that is above concrete operations. They can use the quadratic formula but couldn't explain it in paragraph form or really have an appreciation for it. In California, if the student is not taking Algebra in eighth grade they get dinged on their standardized test for the year (one stanine lower). Seventh graders who take algebra are not allowed according to state rules to take the standardized algebra test...they must take a test based on other standards. I guess I think we might need more than one standard for students, to avoid lowering the standards for the students who can and want to move ahead. Picking a standard because that is what is used in Japan or Germany is not a good justification to me.</p>

<p>We may just disagree because of our accounting stance...you are interested and know about your above average children, I work with those kids and the dozens of others who are pushed by their parents into unhappy and sometimes unhealthy situtations. I have seen a kid cry because their parents told them, "Now you won't get into that good school!" seventh grade and already a failure....</p>

<p>So if you have one of those truly gifted kids do what ever you can, but if he or she is simply at the top of their class...they might be better off staying with the grade.</p>

<p>Another option I haven't read mentioned in this thread is having your child participate in "Math Counts" or the state Mathematics League, which offers advanced level mathemtics above grade level while still being with peers. My son & nephew & niece participated. My nephew got a free trip to compete in the national competition, where he placed 12th in the nation or something.
Johns Hopkins has a lot of opportunities for kids to do above grade level work. I've read that many kids have had good experiences with this. We've chosen to keep our kids at grade level & just have them attend the most academically rigorous school, so they're around peers which are motivated and stimulate them. </p>

<p>Socially, we feel it's important that they not grow up too quickly & feel wholly "out of sync" chronologically with peers. It's nice your child's school gives you options--probably good to speak with the counselor & ask to speak with parents who have had their kids participate.</p>

<p>Good luck!
HImom</p>

<p>If schools have mathaletes or other after school options they should be encouraged, if your child is interested.</p>

<p>marite, how does it affect your S's weighted gpa and ranking? Does he get credits for honors or regular high school courses that he took in middle school?</p>

<p>wzzz:</p>

<p>My S could be called the stealth math nerd. The two APs he took in 8th grade did not figure on either his k-8 or his high school transcipt. Technically, he was not taking science in 8th grade and he was only an auditor in AP-Physics; as for AP-Calc, he was studying it on his own while in 8th grade class, so he was not doing 8th-grade math either (as a result, he did not qualify for either the math or science award at 8th grade graduation :))<br>
My S graduated early last June. He was not ranked, at least at the time he applied to colleges; the GC told us ranking is done toward the end of the junior year. Our school does not weight grades. His college classes (9) were recorded on his transcript; his grades were recorded as Pass (same as PE :)) As far as colleges were concerned, I doubt that they were concerned about his rank or GPA. He was admitted EA at Harvard and RD at Stanford ( he sent the Stanford application because it was due on the same day as the Harvard EA notification). </p>

<p>Other schools handle middle school grades differently; some weight grades and actually give extra weight to college classes. It all depends. Honestly, at the time we embarked on this, we were not thinking about college. We just wanted to prevent our S from being bored into delinquency.</p>

<p>Mr. B;
I think the difference between our district and CA is that algebra is not required for 8th grade graduation although it is offered in 7th and 8th grades. In 2000, the last year when data was collected without using MCAS as benchmark, the district reported that 348 7th graders and 124 8th graders took the Algebra 1 test and 75% passed. Those who did not pass presumably went on to retake Algebra 1 in 9th grade. Those who passed were presumably allowed into Algebra 2 (I say "presumably" because some teachers may have recommended them into Algebra 1 anyway, based on their yearlong performance rather than on the test alone).</p>

<p>With a good teacher, you can never start taking "high school" math too early; if you're aiming for a top school in math or sciences, it's <em>really</em> nice if you can get through Calculus BC before college. That means:</p>

<p>Algebra I
Algebra II/Trig
Geometry
Precalculus
Calculus AB
Calculus BC</p>

<p>You'll notice that's six years, not four. So take all your algebra in middle school if the option is available to you.</p>

<p>Mr.B:</p>

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You can blame previous school years, teachers, home life or whatever...

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<p>Oh, yes. 100% of 7-graders in Germany, or in Ukraine, or in Korea are ready to take Algebra, and more than a third of the 8-graders you see struggle with it... Makes me wonder: maybe, writing "in paragraph form" is not the best way to teach Math?</p>

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They can use the quadratic formula but couldn't explain it in paragraph form or really have an appreciation for it.

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<p>How is it inability "to deal with a problem that is above concrete operations" ?</p>

<p>My S (who also took AP-Calc as a middle-schooler) couldn't explain it in paragraph form, either (thank God!). And I doubt he has any appreciation for it. :-)</p>

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I work with those kids and the dozens of others who are pushed by their parents into unhappy and sometimes unhealthy situtations.

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<p>And I worked with these average kids later, in college... Some of them were still struggling with Algebra. Were they also "developmentally not ready"? Or maybe they were not taught well? Were not challenged? Had to regurgiate the same material year after year after year?</p>

<p>Well dd's schedule was:
9th: Alg I
10th: Geom, Alg II
11th: Hon Precalc
12:Calc BC</p>

<p>So it can be done.</p>