Affirmative Action Ethics

<p>this whole discussion is pretty sick. The whole point of AA is to help underrepresented minorities that might be smart and drived but don't have as much opportunity as others. I think AA is twisted right now. As you mentioned before, there are some black and hispanic families that have many more opportunities than the average person but are still given another edge in their application. They should scratch the whole AA and base it completely on their environment and socioeconomic status, which many minorities would still benefit from. If you don't even know if your hispanic, you're taking a huge risk by doing this. The colleges might think you're a huge liar and it might not be worth the risk. Personally, I think you should go against it but if you're that desperate, why not</p>

<p>Oh, for Pete's sake, Lilybloom...you are totally missing the point. The girl abused the system...she wasn't Spanish, Cuban or anything else...her surname is Scottish and her mother's maiden name is English. Her paternal grandmother was from Central America. She only "saw herself" as Hispanic for purposes of admission and scholarships. Just take it at face value.</p>

<p>Tough situation. I think racial AA is the stupidest idea in the world.. but I'd say if you can confirm that you are hispanic, then you should put that down... because you are. Good luck, just do what you think is right, this isn't our decision, it's yours.</p>

<p>Colleges ask for this information so that they can obtain a diverse student body. "Working" this system defeats the purpose and is absolutely wrong. I am passionately for affirmative action and passionately against those who, by abusing the system, will destroy it.</p>

<p>I agree with being against the "working" of the system. I just don't see how skin color promotes diversity whatsoever.. I guess I define diversity in a different way.</p>

<p>kk13931-- from a third person point of view, i think you are extremely biased against the OP. obviously she's posting this because she is unsure even though you're attacking her right away of being dishonest. her situation is iffy-- she knows her ethnic identification and her race (dna) but is unsure of what the college is technically referring to in the application. so she is not purposely trying to take advantage of the system, although if she said she was hispanic, it is not technically dishonest.</p>

<p>my friend who is half chinese, and half "caucasion (of all types)" identified herself as hispanic because her father is 1/8 hispanic (making her 1/16 hispanic) and her parents are divorced so she lives with her chinese mother. she's not fluent in spanish and doesnt take part in spanish culture. Her academic record was excellent but nowadays its more than just academic, its being well-rounded. I wouldnt say she's anything special, but she got into several ivy league schools. she's also kind of well off, however managed to get some scholarships, identifying herself as hispanic. the world is cruel.</p>

<p>I dislike affirmative action just because its a way of racial profiling.. People should not be accepted/rejected just because of their race.. Although I believe that special circumstances in the person's life should defintely be considered.</p>

<p>I agree that we cannot judge by the color of one's skin, only the content of one's character...but society does differentiate on the basis of skin color. Sad fact. We need affirmative action based on skin color for the moment...I look forward to a time when people are completely colorblind...</p>

<p>frannyzooey: i thought there was a certain limit on that, i may be wrong on this but i was under the influence that to be hispanic it had to be 25% or more</p>

<p>ok. lets see. most of you guys dont seem to know what its like to be a minority. agreed there are problems with AA. i am hispanic, i live in a predominantly middle to upper class white neighborhood with some prejudice inherent. fine. now, a good friend of mine has two parents who went to college and one of whom is a math teacher. neither of my parents went to college. ive had to practically kill myself to get to where i am. now, if i am going to not get into a college i have done everything in my own power to get into because there are other more fortunate kids who can afford SAT prep out there, there is something very, very wrong with the system. please people, see the other side of this issue. i have been discriminated against. it sucks. dont kick me in the face while saying, the minorities should do just as well, when, thats not entirely possible if they arent getting into colleges.</p>

<p>to the OP, i wouldnt list as hispanic. if you dont know your social security number, can you guess one? if you dont know your rank, can you guess it? i wouldnt guess at whether or not you are hispanic. sorry, if its not something you ever took part in, why would you list it? if it bothers you that much, i would suggest saying something about it in the "additional details" section. it cant hurt. just dont be potentially making things up.</p>

<p>Courtjestr19's post sickens me with his ignorance. Okay, you've been discriminated against. WHO CARES. It didn't effect your education or your performance in class. Yeah, I'm white, but some big kid at school didn't like the way I looked apparently, and he kicked my @ss. Now like your discrimination story, it was tragic, but just because some guy mutered a racial slur at you doesn't have to deal with jack over your learning capabilities or how you are presented on your college applications.</p>

<p>"i've had to practically kill myself to get to where i am"
-That sentence is screaming of arrogance and egotism. I'VE BUSTED MY A SS PLENTY OF TIMES OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS, AND SACRIFICED SO MUCH OVER SCHOOLWORK I CAN DETAIL IT FOR A DOZEN PAGES. In fact, amongst the great stats and high caliber of students here on CC, I bet many of people have absolutely pushed their mental and physical capabilities to the limit for the sake of getting into a good college. Are you saying that white kids or asians on this board couldn't possibly have tried just as hard as you have? THATS HILARIOUS.</p>

<p>SAT prep? I never had any, and I only took the test once.
Yet anyway, you're missing the entire point. SAT prep, even according to you, is simply something only rich kids can afford. Now, there are plenty of poor whites (in fact, the overwhelming majority aren't rich) and plenty of rich minorities. That's based on socioeconomic rather than racial factors. Please look that up before you spread your ignorance.</p>

<p>By the way, I personally know how it can feel to be a minority. But I'm tired of minorities screaming "racism!" every ten seconds, playing the victim, hurting innocent people, and creating frivolous lawsuits. Now I know racism is very real and discrimination happens, but more often than not it's just a fabrication. I know people that just point to a guy in the corner and say "Ah, I hate that guy" without even knowing him. And everyone involved is white. People hate, distrust, are annoyed by, experience rage, practice favoratism over random people no matter what their race and sometimes for seemingly random reasons. Get that through your head please because the next time someone is having a really bad day and you bump into them and then they glare at you, caring less about your race but are simply p!!ssed at you AS AN INDIVIDUAL, you can just go on your merry way without crying "RACISM!!!" and calling your lawyer.</p>

<p>In fact, I've noticed many different group dynamics amongst companies of mixed races. Usually, in a group of white guys with one black, asian, or hispanic friend or stranger, the guys usually go out of their way to make sure they don't say anything that could possibly make the guy uncomfortable or feel like he is being treated less. In fact, at the workplace, the lone minority is often treated better than others to make sure no discrimination is felt. Most white guys (minus high school jag-off jocks) deeply fear the threat of a minority screaming RACIST!!! at them in front of superiors, friends, coworkers, or, anyone. It's not because white people are racist, it's just because it's so easy for a minority to pull that kind of play if they intended to manipulate or benefit off this white guy. White guys usually treat minority strangers better than others simply because of this fear. But aside from this fear factor, most white guys simply DO NOT CARE ABOUT RACE AT ALL.</p>

<p>Now, yes, racial slurs are said. But that's just to enfuriate the target a person is ****ed at. It's like calling a fat person "<a href="mailto:fat@ss">fat@ss</a>." Do you have anything against the character of fat people? Probably not, but you are just trying to enrage this person because you got into an argument or something.</p>

<p>Anyhow, in contrast, a lone white person in the complany of a group of blacks usually spells out extreme discomfort and discrimination. Blacks have no fear of being called racists, in fact it's probably even considered laughauble by society. In fact, black people are often encourage to group together in black societies or all black colleges. A lone white in the company of blacks can be called "wigger" or "cracker" all day long, and be discriminated from everything and anything, and no one will give one single solitary s h i t. So trust me, white people know how it can feel to be a minority, with often no defense or outlet for racism against them, and hordes of fear over being senselessly labeld a racist by minorites themselves.</p>

<p>The whole concept of URM is not for someone to actually "discover" that their great grandother's first cousin's uncle on her father's aunt side was actually _<strong><em>, does that make me _</em></strong>____ and one of the reasons why many schools are giving less credence to checking the box and and expectation for the student to show/ tell how their experience as a black, hispanic, asian, bi-racial, etc. and want to know what different voice you will bring to the classroom, what disadvantages you may have overcome, what experiences have shaped your perspective.</p>

<p>When if you apply to law school there is almost an expectation that if you are non-white that you would write a diversity statement. </p>

<p>Even when it comes to hispanics as URMs, schools will first look at students of mexican and puerto rican descent, with many schools already having making efforts to reach out before the college process begins. At many schools your new found URM status may not end up doing much for you.</p>

<p>Just make sure what you do today does not come back to bite you tomorrow. Misrepresentation, even after the fact can be grounds to have your degree rescinded. I remember a student who was admitted in my PhD program who stated on her application that she was hispanic (she was actually jewish) because she had an hispanic sounding name. One of the latino organizations asked her to present a paper at which she promptly said that she was not a latina or even hispanic. The school immeadiately dismissed her and she had to repay all or the scholarship money she was given.</p>

<p>If you are planning on doing anything in your future that requires a back ground check or going in to law, misrepresentation can keep you from being admitted to the bar meaning that you will have wasted 3 years of your life and a lot of money.</p>

<p>“kk13931-- from a third person point of view, i think you are extremely biased against the OP.”</p>

<p>-I am no such thing. All I want expressed is what Sybbie719 said:</p>

<p>“The whole concept of URM is not for someone to actually "discover" that their great grandother's first cousin's uncle on her father's aunt side was actually _<strong><em>, does that make me _</em></strong>____”</p>

<p>This person claims to identify with being white, has no idea the ethnicity of his father, and says “I have no cultural identification with being hispanic in any way”. </p>

<p>If this is not an unethical lie, I don’t know what is. I mean, it would be like my saying: “I don’t have any cultural identification with being Asian, and I can’t prove that I am, but I’m going to claim that I am on a job application because I think it shall help me.” Yes that is silly, and so is the premise of the thread.</p>

<p>My gut response is that the OP already knows who/what s/he is or they would not have had to ask. We no longer live in a time here in the U.S. where people are hiding their race. It is part of the life that you have lived all of your life. To do so otherwise is not only disingenuous, but it is insulting to those who don't use as their race and ethnicity as a mask that can be pulled off and on when the situation suits you.</p>

<p>People who have lived their lives as hispanics, blacks, native american, etc. do not need to ask others "what am I?" because they already know and won't need others to tell them.</p>

<p>I remember taking an ethics class in college and the professor saying that you should live your life as if everything you did would be reported on the front page of the paper or headline the evening news. </p>

<p>To the OP, </p>

<p>Will your parents proudly stand up at the thanksgiving table and say "Oh, our little Eggie ahs applied to ______ and stated that he is hispanic because Grandma's first cousin's uncle Oscar on her father's aunt side was actually hispanic.</p>

<p>Would your parents proudly tell their co-workers and neighbors what you have done? Would they think any less of you or your parents?</p>

<p>How would you feel telling your all of your friends/teachers that you applied as a hispanic applicant?</p>

<p>How would your teachers/ GC/ friends respond once they found out? </p>

<p>Would they look at you as someone who was embracing another part of your heritage or as some one who was looking for an hook?</p>

<p>Because this will actually happen once you arrive on campus; </p>

<p>How would you feel if your college in all their good intentions placed you in affinity housing because they felt you would be more confortable living with in your culture?</p>

<p>What will you do when your name is given to the list serve at your school and you are on the mailings with all of the other hispanic students that the school wants to reach out to? </p>

<p>Will you attend their meetings? </p>

<p>Will you become an active memember of the hispanic community on campus?</p>

<p>When your school hosts its diversity/mulicultural events for prospective students and ask you if you would host or talk about your experience as a student of color on campus, will you? </p>

<p>What would you say?</p>

<p>Character is who you are when no one is watching and there is no right way to do something that you know is wrong. </p>

<p>So in the end, it is a decision that you have to make for yourself.</p>

<p>Did anyone even bother to read my message?</p>

<p>A lot of you have misgivings about Affirmative action...</p>

<p>The way many of you are arguing against affirmative action are unfounded. People are not simply admitted based on their race or color....it is illegal. Read the Michigan case. (Lexus Nexis Academic database available on college campuses).</p>

<p>If you are from a lower socio-economic background you will be looked at as bringing in diversity. If you are female engineer, again something that will bring in diversity. If you are a male dancer....again diversity. If you are applying one of few people applying to a school in Virginia and you are from Washington... diversity. Each particular applicant is looked at individually. Are you getting the picture?</p>

<p>Also, please remember... subjective factors come into play for borderline candidates for admissions. If you are clearly admissable, less time is taken to differentiate the middle of the road students. (I am speaking in reference to schools with competitive admsisions-not very competitive schools like Harvard, where most applicants are capable)</p>

<p>Instead of trying to play crazy games by checking off random boxes, take the time building a strong application. Despite your speculation, college admissions counselors don't just disregard an entire application and simply admit based upon race. (Again, it is illegal!!!) What are you arguing is NOT how affirmative action works. Please do your research.</p>

<p>I am currently finishing up my tenure in admissions, and going to school full-time to study Educational Policy.</p>

<p>Please trust the advice I give you.</p>

<p>P.S. Original poster... If you are not sure of your race-which you aren't- you are welcome to check other or unknown.</p>

<p>"People are not simply admitted based on their race or color....it is illegal."</p>

<p>True, but only for public, tax-supported schools. Private schools can pretty much do whatever they want in admitting people.</p>

<p>I worked for a private school, and those same rules still apply.</p>

<p>Maybe that is true at the school where you worked, but for most, it's not.</p>