<p>and true Docta. I question AA sometimes too. I'll be honest, I don't really know if it's fair. . .only because rich blacks get advantages over poor blacks and maybe some poor whites.
That's something I think about and don't think is right.</p>
<p>But if you're a rich white, don't whine if a low income black get's an edge.</p>
<p>but then doesn't AA cover socio-economic status too?</p>
<p>Ultima...that is not exactly true.</p>
<p>When looking at applications, admissions counselors consider first-generation and students from lower socio-economic backgrounds. For instance, many schools offer bridge programs and extra students to help students from poor educational backgrounds; these students come from across color lines.</p>
<p>I hope that eases you a bit.</p>
<p>Thanks! It did.</p>
<p>I based that doubt on the OP's first post (about the "half-black friend who lives in a rich neighborhood") lol. I knew something was wrong w/ that.</p>
<p>Docta,</p>
<p>Let's be honest... how much do politicians pay attention to the minority vote and people from lower socio-economic background?</p>
<p>These groups believe that politicians have a self-fulfilling prophecy that politicians will not address their issues... and because they don't vote they're not paid attention to.</p>
<p>People who vote in droves tend to come from the middle-class, seniors. Politicians are also very concerned with lobbyists, and corporate support.</p>
<p>What is morally right?</p>
<p>Is it morally right to have disparities in education? Is it morally right the restrictive housing covenants caused segrated housing communities thus segregated education? Is it morally right that some students that some guidance counselors have a caseload of 300+ while others have a caseload of 50+? Is it morally right for colleges to offer bridge programs and support to help play their part in mending this problem-- where are education system has failed us? Is it morally right that some students can afford SAT coaching? Is it morally right that people hire independent college counselors to help polish and streamline the admissions process? Is it morally right that oppression still exists today? </p>
<p>I get where you are coming from... you feel like some black kid with less preparation has taken your spot. But honestly, affirmative action works differently than people think. Affirmative action does not enstate quotas. It does make schools recruit students, faculty, and staff in a more diverse manner. They must make an effort to travel to those areas, and place ads where people of various races are looking for jobs. (Please refer to my earlier comment concerning how admissions counselors build a class and give various people a leg up. No one ever comments how alumni get a leg up...ahem ahem Bush or how about full-pay or potential donors.</p>
<p>The admissions game can be arbitrary at times.. and can seem very unfair. Each school have various strategic goals..... some want to pay less for financial aid...so they look for full-pays.... some want to diversity...so they recruit hard for that...some want to maintain strong athletics...</p>
<p>But honestly, learn how to play the game...because it really is a game. Get into the heads of the admissions counselors of the various schools you apply to. You'd be surprised how it will increase your chances at admissions.</p>
<p>A lot of students on here take for granted their educational backgrounds and their lifestyles. I hope that when many of you attend college that you step out of your comfort zone and take time to learn about the experiences of URM, people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, and international students. Go study abroad to a third-world country. It will definately affect your outlook.</p>
<p>thank you latoya :) and yes, the people who are against AA are the one's who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth, therefore they have absolutely no right to complain about giving a chance to ppl who actually deserve an opportunity to go to a decent college. it's kind of like the difference between white sororities/frats and black/latino sororities and frats. who actually cares about the community, and who prefers buying a new pair of gucci sunglasses to tutoring kids from the barrio. that's what i thought.</p>
<p>latoya - Politicians care enough not to meddle with AA. And there is nothing wrong with giving someone an advantage if he/she cannot afford SAT classes, cannot afford private counselors, are born in poor families, etc. That is completely right. However, it is wrong to give someone an advantage simply because they check themselves in as a URM.</p>
<p>latinac - Thinking that all white middle class kids are spoiled and uncaring is very ignorant. Going against your own personal goals for what AA is really trying to achieve. Disadvantaged students should get an advantage over privileged ones, but that isn't necessarily what's happening with AA which looks at race over socioeconomic backgrounds.</p>
<p>
[quote]
thank you latoya and yes, the people who are against AA are the one's who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth, therefore they have absolutely no right to complain about giving a chance to ppl who actually deserve an opportunity to go to a decent college. it's kind of like the difference between white sororities/frats and black/latino sororities and frats. who actually cares about the community, and who prefers buying a new pair of gucci sunglasses to tutoring kids from the barrio. that's what i thought.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's not true at all. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I'm against AA. What exactly do you mean by people who actually deserve the opportunity to go to a decent college? Are you saying that there are some people (other than the ones that are not qualified academically) who don't deserve to go to college? If so which people? And decent college by whose standards?</p>
<p>If I'm half Moroccan (my dad is from Morocco) could I have technically put down "African American"? My dad jokingly encouraged me to and I didn't, since I identify myself as a white Jew, but I'm just curious.</p>
<p>so basically, because im an upper class white kid, i dont deserve to get into any colleges :) haha</p>
<p>In all seriousness, i used to be against AA, but now i support it, though I do think that the system needs to be changed a bit (so that URMs who dont suffer from many disadvantages do not benefit more than poor white people from terrible rural schools who actually do deserve AA but dont get it). The reason I support AA is simple, however. In many high schools with a high percentage of URMs, it is simply impossible to obtain the same types of academic stats as you could at private or top suburban public high schools. These schools have few if any APs, underpaid teachers who arent motivated, and a majority of students who believe they wont go anywhere in life anyway, and have no reason to do well in school. This leaves these schools with very few people who actually want to attend a decent college. For these kids, no matter how hard they work, their application will still not look as impressive as the suburban kid with the 15 APs and the 2350 SAT. At the high URM school, SAT prep is unheard of due to mainly poor students as well as an apathetic school system, leaving these kids far behind suburban applicants who paid thousands of dollars for their SAT score. How do we expect these kids to compete with the top applicants if we dont give them some sort of a boost in admissions. For the kids in the heavily URM schools, many have had to work twice as hard or harder to even get to the point where they could think about applying to a top college than the suburban kid who sees it as his birthright to apply to every school on the USNWR top 25. How are the kids from the bad schools going to ever get out of that cycle if they dont get anything out of their years of hard work except going to the same third tier school that their parents went to, or not going to school at all? I would encourage all posters who are against AA to read a book by Ron Suskind entitled "A Hope in the Unseen- An American Odyssey from the Inner City to the Ivy League." Suskind is very liberal, and I am conservative, so I do not generally agree with him, but this is an extremely well written book and it shows the benefits of AA very well. The book follows a poor black student at a terrible DC public school through his final two years in high school and his first three at Brown University, where he was admitted despite his 960 SAT score. Get back to me after you read this book and tell me if you are still against AA. </p>
<p>I just felt that I had to say something with all these people bashing AA as unfair. Of course maybe I would have got into some more schools if not for AA, but I also could have worked harder and made my stats better, because I had many more opportunities than the average beneficiary of AA while in high school. Just to clarify, I am an upper class white kid and I go to a very good public school on Long Island.</p>
<p>Latoya...thank you for your insight. Hopefully, lots of people will read your explanation...because I think this issue is greatly misunderstood...especially because AA has become quite maligned in the recent years given the present administration. Lots of kids really don't understand the history of AA or how it is used in the admissions process today. So, thank you again for taking the time to post!</p>
<p>bottom line is colleges need to review each student individually and not automatically assume the type of opportunity given to them simply by their race/ethnicity. Furthermore, stop associating race with someone socio-economic background if they decide to use it as a way to give someone a leg up. If, however, they're using the information about race/ethnicity to diversify their school or for some other reason other than giving a student leg up, they should be aware that students can lie without having immediate consequences (like colleges arent checking and its not like theres a quick efficient way to check anyways)</p>
<p>Thank you symphonymom and ckmets for your additions. I am rounding up my time in admisssions and about to begin my masters in public administration-educational policy. I understand a lot of these kids are young, but I would like to at least explain AA and give some insights on admissions. </p>
<p>For Michaeleatsfish, admissions counselors do not make assumptions that an URM is poor. Don't forget that you fill out your parents educational background, and occupation. A lot can be deducted from that: single-parent households, first-generation, etc etc. Also, essays and recommendations reveal some of these problems. </p>
<p>And yes, it is sad that some students misrepresent themselves. At an admissions training session we talked about. Guidance counselors usually catch that if they send applications for students. And, of course, a student has to eventually show their face. It is definately not wise. Colleges can rescind an offer based upon ANY false information provided. You do sign saying that the information is true.... it is not a smart move. Colleges do not like seeing dishonesty...it serves as a bad precedent.</p>
<p>Could someone address my question on page 6? I'm just curious.</p>
<p>No, actually you couldn't because, you are not Black/African-American. It is a racial category not one of nationality.</p>
<p>Be proud of your unique background; stay true to yourself.</p>
<p>Contrary to belief on this board, checking a race box is not an automatic admit.</p>
<p>If you've always Identified yourself as a white Jew in the real world. e.t.c
why would you want to now change that and Identify yourself as African American.
You know it's obviously wrong.</p>
<p>If your half morrocan and where your live, your culture is maybe almost primarily morrocan, you tell people your morrocan e.t.c and identify with morroco, then you can check yourself as black.
But as you said, you're basically WHITE JEW. so don't now.
(i remember one of those forms stating clearly: choose the group you most identify with.</p>
<p>I said it earlier and will say it again. A lot of kids live their lives as white kids but when it's time for college applications, they looking for their minority roots (ie. my grandmother was spanish e.t.c)</p>
<p>I'm a peaceful person and I grew up on Long Island. Therefore I am a Pacific Islander and that's going on my apps!</p>
<p>haha, too bad thats not a URM</p>
<p>if you're immature enough to go out your way to think of something like that, then i'm pretty sure it'll show in other parts of your app and the admissions board wont be impressed</p>
<p>...yea and thats not a URM. it might even hurt you because so many pacific islanders are applying to colleges. it doesnt promote diversity or anything</p>
<p>oh also, peaceful is an arbitrary thing. you might think you're peaceful, but others not. DNA on the other hand is not opinionated. So technically you might be lying if you're not peaceful (even though YOU THINK you are)</p>