Affirmative Action Ethics

Applying to College
161

<p>"The most painful to watch were the extremely rich Mexican, mixed race, and African American students in my class, wearing their Tiffany jewelry and slinging their Gucci school bags, beer bonging every weekend, getting accepted to schools where they would probably do nothing but host more than enough raging parties with free hard liquor to keep the entire student body satisfied for freshman year. I don't understand how this at all promotes diversity. It is a fact that if colleges find an URM who can pay full tuition, that kid will be in like that. He or she will fill their "unspoken quota," and not even cause a strain on the financial aid department. Brilliant."</p>

<p>You are obviously very jealous. Life is not fair, people get and edge in things. Do I get mad at the hot girls who are not as qualified as me who gets the manager position, no. WHY, because I know life is not fair.</p>

<p>Also your fat people and acne bit was hilarious, I just went to my doctor who said I was OBESE ( I am 6 ft and 215 pounds, most of its from working out). Maybe I should put this on my applications.</p>

<p>You are one jealous girl, how do you feel about white people who get into UPENN with lower stats. I know two white girls who got in with lower stats.</p>

<p>BTW- I work as a first responder and I can tell you white people get drunk and drink way more then blacks. Our town 6% black and 90% white, we had 67 white cases of alcohol related arrests and illness this SUMMER, while roughly 7 for blacks during the same time.</p>

162

<p>
[quote]
You are obviously very jealous. Life is not fair, people get and edge in things. Do I get mad at the hot girls who are not as qualified as me who gets the manager position, no. WHY, because I know life is not fair.

[/quote]

Oh hell no. Please don't pull the "life is not fair" card. It's just an excuse. The whole point of laws, rules, etc. is to try to make everything fair. College admissions is supposed to be fair.</p>

163

<p>I'm going to post this again, b/c I really want a response:</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
If I'm Johns Hopkins. 2005 Entering Class, I have accepted and enrolled:</p>

<p>1,013 (63%)White Students
325 (21%) Asian Students
96 (6%) International Students
64 (4%) Black Students</p>

<p>Now, if I want MY university to remain consistent at 5% Black entering class, I want 16 more black students, I'll send out acceptance letter to 107 more black applicants, KNOWING that only 15% of RD Blacks will accept.</p>

<p>Now, you're sitting there like, why'd those 107 blacks get in and not me?</p>

<p>Look sweetie, if I accepted 107 more Asians, 47 of you will accept.
if I accepted 107 more whites, 35 of you will accept.
if I accepted 107 more Blacks, 16 of them will accept.</p>

<p>I do not desire 47 more Asians, that would put us over-enrollment
I do not desire 35 more Whites, that's would do the same, plus we already have over 1,000 of you.</p>

<p>I just want 16 more students max, and really, that is MY decision, for my instutions. In honestly, I would/should have capped off the class now. But I don't see the issue in raising percentage of black students by 1%...ONE PERCENT...UNO... especially if I can garuntee they'll graduate (82%, not far from 86% of whites).

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Please open up to commentary. Note this was simple role play using real-adjusted stats from Johns Hopkins. Not neccesarily reflective of my viewpoint, but really to see what would your response be to an action like this by the Admissions Office. Begin!</p>

164

<p>I agree with arti.</p>

<p>Although I think that CityGal is overreacting to the situation (which everyone is prone to), I also think that she has a right to complain and be jealous. Life isn't fair, but it doesn't have to be that way.</p>

<p>Anyways no matter how much we debate on this forum, AA will be still be a part of college admissions for quite some time.</p>

<p>At my summer internship, I met a hispanic girl from Yale, a hispanic girl from MIT, and a african-american girl from Stanford. Although they weren't what I really expected from their respective institutions (compared to other people I had met from those schools), I thought that they were in general, very nice and very smart people and definitely not "beer-binging, gucci-wearing" kids (though i did see one throw away a promotional t-shirt because it wasnt hollister).</p>

<p>Flawed or not, AA is a part of college admissions and at least the minorities that get accepted to their respective schools are ones who can handle the work and represent their institutions well.</p>

165

<p>"At my summer internship, I met a hispanic girl from Yale, a hispanic girl from MIT, and a african-american girl from Stanford. Although they weren't what I really expected from their respective institutions (compared to other people I had met from those schools)"</p>

<p>-That is absurd for so many reasons, I don’t even want to begin. </p>

<p>Also, I’ll say it again: there are 8 Black people at Caltech. :)</p>

166

<p>I'll ignore the jealous comments. I'm more annoyed at a completely unfair system than anything else, and contrary to what latoya said, I do not have "agression" issues. And even if I did, latoya would probably have some agression issue of her own if the ball were in my court, with preferential treatment given to me because of my skin color. </p>

<p>My GPA is hs was a 3.7, and my ACT was a 32. This is a little less than the typical white female admitted to Penn. But 27 seems pretty low. </p>

<p>Will no one admit that giving any racial group treatment over another promotes racism and racial tension? We will never be able to truly achieve a colorblind nation until every student is held to the same standards. AA is basically telling black, Hispanic, etc. students that because of history, because of their circumstances, because of their SKIN, they do not have to work as hard and not as much is expected of them. If this keeps up, a colorblind nation WILL NEVER HAPPEN.</p>

<p>There is NOTHING wrong with schools advertising or promoting themselves in schools where the majority of the students are URMs. In fact, I'm for it. I think it is very important to make students aware of opportunities out there if they work hard. </p>

<p>What I have a problem with is this: if on my application to Penn I had checked off an URM box, I really think I would have been accepted.</p>

167

<p>I continually shake my head over these discussiosn as it seems that every one is up in arms over the less than 100 students that come into the freshman class at a handful of elite schools (and you would be hard pressed to find 100 blacks with the exception of Cornell). However, no one is ever up in arms about the thousands of majority students who have knocked them out of the box (gosh, some even with poorer stats).</p>

168

<p>CityGal: I suggest you research AA, and learn the sociological theory and actual application before you make your ridiculous remarks. Do colleges use race as a factor for AA? Yep, they sure do. Do you want to know what else they use… geographic location, religion, gender, first-generation status.. and so on. Affirmative Action is not a program that looks simply at race, despite what those who vilify it say. </p>

<p>From what you are saying one could argue that athletes should not get preferential treatment, “just because they play sports” and children of alumni shouldn’t “just because their parents attended the school”… and so on and so forth….. Fairness is relative</p>

169

<p>Ha...well come to think of it, I disagree with children of alumni being admitted on a preferential basis too. As for athletes...athletics are something a student works at for their whole life in order to excel and become good enough to play at a college level. I don't see any children of alumni or URMs "working" to maintain that status!</p>

170

<p>My only question is (forget the black kids for a moment) whose fault is it that a "left-out-in-dust" applicant was outshined by those other 1,206 white students starting at UPenn this fall? My position on people like citygal, if you were not good enough to compete with those 1,200+ white students at Penn, don't blame your rejection on ONE black students b/c they weren't planning on accepting you in the first place, they accepted the almost 2,000 white applicants they wanted, and you, sorry to say, were not one of them!</p>

<p>Citygal, UPenn has in the Entry Class:</p>

<p>1,206 (47%) White Student
524 (20%) Asian Students
229 (9%) International Students
193 (8%) Black Students<br>
173 (7%) Hispanic Students
12 (<1%) American Indian Students</p>

<p>I would say figuratively, as a white student entering UPenn next fall, I would be ecstatic to enter with such brillance & talent that at the same time is this diverse,especially if I'm studying Political Science and International Relations, I will have a full spectrum of the world in each class to discuss, debate, and collaborate with. Now if you would rather advocate for my entry class to look more like this, at another excellent communications school:</p>

<p>1,976 (77%) White Student
173 (6%) Hispanic Students
128 (5%) Asian Students
51 (2%) International Students
12 (1%) Black Students<br>
12 (1%) American Indian Students</p>

<p>That was Emerson, an AA free school. I've added 750 white students to the freshmen class and you're one of those ADDITIONAL 750 students, how do you feel? Now if I put Emerson's communication program in UPenn's campus and that was your homogenous student body, would you go? You probably would have been accepted to this class Would your perspective of UPenn change at all?</p>

171

<p>Really, that could be the best communications program in the world, could garuntee me a job at FOX when I graduate, I would never attend! Really, if that was UPenn, I'd rather spend my next four years at UConn in complete and full honesty.</p>

172

<p>I've read your post, Cre8tive1, and I see the point you are trying to make. You are saying that a big part of the reason Penn is the way it is is because the diverse student body brings a wide array of opinions to the table. I understand your point. </p>

<p>I still do not agree with affirmative action. Maybe you should read some of my posts a little more closely. If you do, you will see that I believe socio-economic differences, plus a wide array of other factors, bring diversity to a school.</p>

<p>Emerson is a poor choice as an example because it is a media-based school that does no (to my knowledge) advertise as heavily as universities with many majors. I would never dream of going to Emerson because the student body is so lopsided with kids who want to be anchors and filmmakers. A true education will be attained in a place where students are studying a wide variety of subjects, therefore attracting a more diverse applicant pool. You don't really have an argument.</p>

173

<p>Citygal... whether you like it or not...college is a business. They are trying to work their stats, and make their school attractive.</p>

<p>Regarding your alumni comment (mind you, I'm a first-generation college grad, and masters student in two weeks!), funding and gifts come from alumni. So alumni preference will happen. Potential donor preference will happen. </p>

<p>For all of your arguments concerning race and class..here is something to chew on:</p>

<p>"A" Students from lower socio-economic backgrounds (with students of color overwhelmingly represented) attend college at the same rate that affluent "D" students attend college. </p>

<p>Also, I really have to comment on you color blind comment. I really don't like when people say color blind. I remember my freshman year in college, when a white girl came up to me and said "I believe in being color blind ...I don't see color..blah blah." Please stop. So you can't tell the difference between green and red? Of course you see color...and there is nothing wrong with that. We should embrace various cultures, skin tones, etc because it makes our day to day interactions more interesting. </p>

<p>Our country,unfortunately, has deep-rooted issues with race. We are still are reaping the consequences and after effects. Yes, slavery ended over 200 years ago. Yes, Jim Crow ended about 50 years ago. But really... it wasn't that long ago. The Florida election debacle... how long ago was that? The Voting Rights Act...no.. wait...that hasn't been renewed yet? </p>

<p>I know you want to be optimistic, but please don't be naive. As unfair as you think things are for you, it is a lot more unfair for others. Every heard about "black tax"? Every have to worry about your name being to ethnic? Ever sat in a class and been expected to speak on behalf of your entire race? Ever have to test out of your horrible school (no textbooks, classes in hallways, dangerous atmosphere) just to receive the education you deserved? Ever looked into the eyes of someone with the weight of the world on their shoulders?</p>

174

<p>1st, please stop avoiding answering the question, which is obvious (both the question and your detour)!</p>

<p>CityGal, I said put Emerson's communication program at UPenn. You commented before that you thought Fordham was too homogenous, what would you think of a Upenn with that demographic breakdown.</p>

<p>And also, the most advertised and largest university in the state, PennState, and they also have a much larger applicant pool, over 10,000 more than UPenn. So as you said, is should be self-selectingly diverse by the invisible hand. No, PennState is 85% white. The difference...take a guess!</p>

175

<p>kk,</p>

<p>They were three people. I didnt make a generalization about any group. You also failed to quote that I did think they were very intelligent and very nice.</p>

<p>You're the one being absurd. You look for discrimination even though there is none there.</p>

<p>"I agree with arti.</p>

<p>Although I think that CityGal is overreacting to the situation (which everyone is prone to), I also think that she has a right to complain and be jealous. Life isn't fair, but it doesn't have to be that way.</p>

<p>Anyways no matter how much we debate on this forum, AA will be still be a part of college admissions for quite some time.</p>

<p>At my summer internship, I met a hispanic girl from Yale, a hispanic girl from MIT, and a african-american girl from Stanford. Although they weren't what I really expected from their respective institutions (compared to other people I had met from those schools), I thought that they were in general, very nice and very smart people and definitely not "beer-binging, gucci-wearing" kids (though i did see one throw away a promotional t-shirt because it wasnt hollister).</p>

<p>Flawed or not, AA is a part of college admissions and at least the minorities that get accepted to their respective schools are ones who can handle the work and represent their institutions well."</p>

<p>That is my entire post. Don't clip it to fit your own views.</p>

176

<p>"Oh hell no. Please don't pull the "life is not fair" card. It's just an excuse. The whole point of laws, rules, etc. is to try to make everything fair. College admissions is supposed to be fair."</p>

<p>***!!!!! You obviously have no knowledge of laws. How can you even say laws are fair, have you ever heard of the 3 strikes laws in California, where more people are serving life sentences for shoplifting then for murders.<br>
Laws are meant to set forth rules governing a particular kind of activity.</p>

<p>Get informed about the legal system before say such silly things.</p>

177

<p>"That is my entire post. Don't clip it to fit your own views."</p>

<p>-I am doing no such thing. </p>

<p>"Although they weren't what I really expected from their respective institutions"</p>

<p>-Since you think I misrepresented what you were trying to convey, how about you explain what this means? Explain how these people did not meet your "expectations"…</p>

178

<p>"Will no one admit that giving any racial group treatment over another promotes racism and racial tension? We will never be able to truly achieve a colorblind nation until every student is held to the same standards. AA is basically telling black, Hispanic, etc. students that because of history, because of their circumstances, because of their SKIN, they do not have to work as hard and not as much is expected of them. If this keeps up, a colorblind nation WILL NEVER HAPPEN."</p>

<p>CityGal, you are starting to show me you have no idea what AA is. AA has only direct quotas on government jobs and public schools. Private schools could, if they wanted to, only allow white kids or asians. Obviously they feel diversity is good.</p>

179

<p>Actually AA has NO direct quotas for ANY school</p>

180

<p>BTW- I work as a first responder and I can tell you white people get drunk and drink way more then blacks. Our town 6% black and 90% white, we had 67 white cases of alcohol related arrests and illness this SUMMER, while roughly 7 for blacks during the same time</p>

<p>Sorry,
just cannot resist: based on your statistics, if blacks were drinking at the same rate as whites, you should have gotten 4.4666667 cases of black drunks.
7 for blacks means that they drink at a rate 1.567 higher than whites.</p>