<p>okay, let's get something cleared here...we are all ONE race, we are all human, and quite frankly it really makes me mad when people identify themselves as a different race. with that said, we all have different ETHNICITIES, but we are all the same race, so can we please be careful with the way we word things from now on. thank you :)</p>
<p>African-American is Politically Correct term for Black and to identify Americans who are the decendants of Africans. My family is actually from the Caribbean (Trinidad & Tobago) ; and I am black. So I check the African-American/black because I am black. The Caribbean is a geographic region not a race. In Trinidad, the primary races are Black and Indian. There also Chinese, Japanese, an White. </p>
<p>So, yes, cultually I am a little different from other Black Americans...just like the Russian and Engish Caucasians are very different; but racially they fall under the same category. I still identify with Black Americans, because I still cannot trace my lineage due to the African slave trade. I choose not to perpetuate a divide between Americans and Caribbean people because it was something that was perpetuated by the government. For example, in NY blacks from the Caribbean were allowed to buy housing in certain areas while Black Americans were denied those priveleges.</p>
<p>Fabrizio,</p>
<p>You raise a very valid point. In fact there has been a lot of discussion (some right here CC's parent forum you can search the threads) about this very topic.</p>
<p>One of the major points raised is about the majority of black students in elite colleges are the children of recent immigrants of the Caribean and Africa and there are very few blacks who have been in the U.S. for generations and were descendants of slaves here in the U.S. for whom Affirmative Action initiatives target. While yes, they are all "black" Carribean Americans and recent african immigrants have had different experiences in this country from American blacks.</p>
<p>from Harvard Magazine Article: Roots and Race:</p>
<p>*In June, a New York Times article raised a long-simmering issue: the origins and ancestry of Harvard's black students. The piece described the celebratory mood at a reunion of African-American Harvard alumni, who applauded Harvard's progress over the past three decades in enrolling larger numbers of black students. But it also noted that this mood was broken when "some speakers brought up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students are." The question arises because, even though in recent years 7 to 9 percent of Harvard's incoming freshmen (8.9 percent for the class of 2008) have been African Americans, some studies suggest that more than half of these students, and perhaps as many as two-thirds, are West Indian or African immigrants or their children. A substantial number also identify themselves as children of biracial couples.</p>
<p>The figures are inexact partly because they are unofficial; there are no official data, because the Harvard admissions office does not collect information on the ancestry of incoming freshmen. But a handful of scholars have explored the question, which remains a lively one. "I've been teaching courses in race and ethnicity here for 18 years, and almost every time I teach a class, this issue comes up," says professor of sociology Mary Waters. "It is very commonly discussed among black students at Harvard." Four years ago, Waters advised an honors thesis—which she calls "the best study I know of on the topic"—by one such student, Aisha Haynie '00, an African American whose family has long resided in the southern United States. Her research, published in the Journal of Public and International Affairs in 2002, tried to ascertain the provenance of Harvard's black undergraduates.</p>
<p>Haynie went through copies of the Harvard Freshman Register and, based on the photographs therein, contacted fellow students who looked black. She also located subjects through Harvard's black student organizations and black undergraduate listservs. Her sample, though not random, was large enough to yield at least some data on nearly a quarter of black undergraduates, by her estimate. Using questionnaires and interviews, Haynie found that, while a clear majority identified themselves as "black American," African and Afro-Caribbean identifiers combined made up more than a third of the subjects, and her "bi-ethnic or bi-racial" category accounted for about a quarter (see table).</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>Some schools have already added sub categories for black applicants just like there are sub categories for asians.</p>
<p>Thanks, Sybbie for posting that.
More from the article.</p>
<p>"Turning to ancestry, Haynie found that although first-generation (immigrants born outside the United States) black Americans showed up in her study in numbers proportionate to the U.S. Census, second-generation (born in the United States, with at least one parent born overseas) blacks made up 41 percent of her Harvard pool—but only about 3 percent of black Americans (see table). Fourth- (and higher) generation African Americans, who represent nearly 90 percent of the American black population, accounted for only 45 percent of the black students she studied. In pursuing her research, Haynie recalls meeting resistance from Harvard deans and admissions officials. "They were saying, 'You shouldn't be trying to divide students along ethnic lines,'" she says. "But they're already divided! Just look at the data."</p>
<p>African Americans, who account for 13 percent of the U.S. population, are statistically underrepresented at Harvard and other selective colleges. Black students descended from multiple generations of American forebears may be underrepresented to an even greater degree. "</p>
<p>The article also said that 25% of the students self-identified as bi-racial, which also is clearly much higher than the percentage of biracial African Americans in the U.S.</p>
<p>Incidentally, nothing is new about any of this. Historically, the most educated African Americans were the descendents of white slave owners. Even when I went to Harvard, a large percentage of the black students were extremely light skinned, reflecting that many had a much larger percentage of white ancestry than do most African Americans. This particularly was reflected in how the black female students looked. Since at the time, admissions to Harvard was much more difficult for females than for males, presumably the black female students had higher stats than did the black male students (The same was true for whites). Consequently, there was a large proportion of black female students with light skin, straight hair and traditionally European features.</p>
<p>Incidentally, a few years ago, Lani Guinier (black Harvard grad and Harvard law prof) instituted one of the first public discussionsof the disproportionately high numbers of black Harvard students who are bi-racial or of Caribbean/ancestry. Lani's dad was from the Caribbean (and was a Harvard prof) and her mom was white and Jewish.</p>
<p>Thank you for posting the article.. it was quite informative.</p>
<p>It does exemplify some deep-rooted problems with education for African-Americans. Even when you look at Historically Black Colleges and Universities, many of the students were light-skinned ( a friend of mine told me of her experience at Hampton). A lot of African-Americans who are second and third-generation college students have parents who are light-skinned. This is because they were afforded more opportunities, which has trickled down through the generations.</p>
<p>This only shows how complicated the problem is. Even with, Affirmative Action though, acceptance rates are significantlly lower for those of white counterparts (contrary to many people on this board's beliefs). Also, disproportinately blacks and other people of color are overrepresented in the trenches of poverty.</p>
<p>A lot of people raise the question why black immigrants out perform their American citizen counterparts. It is a very touchy subject; even withing the black community, because it causes division. But if it is researched further, we can definately begin to unravel the mystery. How deep are the wounds of slavery and Jim Crow? How deep do the effects -whether black or white-run in our country? What can we learn from this particular group when addressing other URM?</p>
<p>Wow, this thread really blew up since I last looked at. Thanks for the responses everyone! I finally recieved my Uncommon app and I've decided to check both white and Hispanic. While still ethically questionable, I think it's probably the best choice. The application said to check one, multiple, or none. </p>
<p>I think many people got the wrong idea about my identity by my opening post. While I suppose that I do identify myself as white, I do so internally, and usually refrain from labeling myself when someone asks. The fact that people always ask me "what I am" within minutes of meeting me helps me justify this desicion (on the application). There are times when I've faced racism because of this possibile miss-identification by others.
I would feel guiltier about the whole thing if I lived in the suberbs or something. Living and going to school in the inner city has given me some form of familiarity, if not identity. </p>
<p>It's very difficult not to look at AA from a selfish standpoint, especially when there are all these cases of upper echelon minorities who have had the best of educations getting into schools on that basis. However, there are many cases in which it helps those who it intends to help. Honestly, I think the whole push towards an economically based advantaged versus a stereotyped one would work much better. In doing this, it would apply to a greater number of blacks, hispanics and Native Americans, because those are the groups who are the poorest. However, it would also help those poor white students who have been putting in the effort, but have been getting washed over by AA. </p>
<p>Of course, there is a whole other side to the issue, which is the push towards diversity on campus (regardless of economic background). </p>
<p>Whites really don't have it that bad in the system, compared to Asians at least. </p>
<p>
[quote]
An affirmative action study by Princeton sociologists in 2005 attempted to break down and compare the effects of the practice among racial and special groups. The data from the study represent admissions disadvantage and advantage in terms of SAT points (on the old 1600-point scale):</p>
<p>Blacks: +230
Hispanics: +185
Asians: -50
Recruited athletes: +200
Legacies (children of alumni): +160
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"I've decided to check both white and Hispanic."</p>
<p>-Why not Black, no, no: Native American!!!</p>
<p>
[quote]
"I've decided to check both white and Hispanic."</p>
<p>-Why not Black, no, no: Native American!!!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why not all of them?!!!</p>
<p>One-side criticism that really is picking at me...how exactly are you getting royally screwed when blacks regardless will never take up more than 10% of the entering class? So, whether or not the program is justified, I do not buy whatsoever the arguement, "that could have been my spot" arguement, I also believe that at every elite school, as apart of their elite education they deserve a minimally diverse entering class to give them the fullest experience. Really, if I am part of the 90-95% that is enrolled, I'd rather see some different backgrounds (internationals/minorities) than 5% more "I think I can-boarderline white applicants." That was in some way overly blunt, but that is my biggest pet-peeve when discussing affirmative action.</p>
<p>If I'm Johns Hopkins. 2005 Entering Class, I have accepted and enrolled:</p>
<p>1,013 (63%)White Students
325 (21%) Asian Students
96 (6%) International Students
64 (4%) Black Students</p>
<p>Now, if I want MY university to remain consistent at 5% Black entering class, I want 16 more black students, I'll send out acceptance letter to 107 more black applicants, KNOWING that only 15% of RD Blacks will accept.</p>
<p>Now, you're sitting there like, why'd those 107 blacks get in and not me?</p>
<p>Look sweetie, if I accepted 107 more Asians, 47 of you will accept.
if I accepted 107 more whites, 35 of you will accept.
if I accepted 107 more Blacks, 16 of them will accept.</p>
<p>I do not desire 47 more Asians, that would put us over-enrollment
I do not desire 35 more Whites, that's would do the same, plus we already have over 1,000 of you.</p>
<p>I just want 16 more students max, and really, that is MY decision, for my instutions. In honestly, I would/should have capped off the class now. But I don't see the issue in raising percentage of black students by 1%...ONE PERCENT...UNO... especially if I can garuntee they'll graduate (82%, not far from 86% of whites). </p>
<p>Please open up to commentary. Note this was simple role play using real-adjusted stats from Johns Hopkins. Not neccesarily reflective of my viewpoint, but really to see what would your response be to an action like this by the Admissions Office. Begin!</p>
<p>There are 8 Black people at Caltech. :)</p>
<p>I have just read this entire thread (can't sleep!) and have to agree with every single word Peter Parker has said. AA is a completely ridiculous concept that is only helping discrimination thrive and tensions between races continue to live. </p>
<p>People keep saying we need AA because America is not colorblind. BS!!!! Maybe abolishing AA would aid in creating a colorblind country because people would actually be accepted based on their qualifications and not a factor they have absolutely no control over. Do all you AA supporters actually believe that AA will eventually lead to all races living in harmony and peace? It only FURTHERS tensions between races. </p>
<p>The only factor that should be considered in college admissions is socio-economic status. </p>
<p>Tigers Woods is a great example. He is Asian, Indian, white AND black. WOW!!! He probably wouldn't even have to take the SAT or graduate high school...Harvard will snap up this gem in a heartbeat!!!! But a closer look will reveal that Tiger led one of the most stereotypical privileged lives possible: from the age of two, he played golf, one of the most expensive sports. His parents were very dedicated and he is clearly intelligent, well-educated, and articulate. Are you telling me Tiger Woods deserves a better chance of admission than some white kid who lives in a trailer park with parents who are high all day long? There is no logic involved. Tiger Woods, golf aside, would bring about as much diversity to a college campus as a chocolate chip cookie would to a kitchen. </p>
<p>I applied to Penn last year and was rejected flat out early decision. Then, lo and behold, I come across a newspaper article describing "dedicated" and "hard-working" African American students who got into Ivy League colleges. The kid who was accepted to Penn had a lower GPA than me, and while I was rejected with a 32 ACT, he sailed right on in with a 27. This kid was from a well to do family. I think I have RIGHT as an applicant to be annoyed. </p>
<p>EVERYONE has experiences that make them unique. So why is race the only factor that matters? How about kids in wheelchairs? I would venture to say that a wheelchair-bound person has had it A LOT tougher than any minority. I think they would bring a lot more diversity to a campus. How about kids with speech impediments? Talk about having issues in the world. Or kids with really bad acne. Lets give them a box because society sees right through unattractive human beings. Or the best one yet. What about obese teenagers? White people AND minorities don't seem to have any problem making fun of fat people on a daily basis. Fat people get discriminated against more than a minority will ever know, and no one cares to watch their language or tiptoe around. Obese teens can't shop in the same places, are constantly being judged every time they eat something, might not get a job because they aren't attractive enough. BUT SORRY, I guess that's not good enough either. </p>
<p>Until there are boxes on an application that cover every possible prejudice people experience on a daily basis, I really do not think it is fair that one group gets it easier than the next.</p>
<p>You are a silly, scorned person who has no idea about what she is writing. You have no “right to be annoyed”. If college admissions were purely a numbers game, colleges would set statistical standards, and only allow those who met said standards to apply. People like you who have a sense of entitlement make me sick. You were rejected from college not because a minority was accepted, but because you did not meet the requirements of that college: live with it and get over it.</p>
<p>Oh and by the way, the Penn acceptance letter is nice. :)</p>
<p>Tiger Woods attended to Stanford before going pro</p>
<p>You said it, 19131.</p>
<p>After reading the first couple of sentences I was sure the complaint was from somenone who was rejected from their preferred college, and now seeks to rationalize that fact, since they are totally sure they would have been admitted otherwise. Such folks are typically don't know what they are talking about.</p>
<p>I also tend to assume that people who are sure that they were rejected from college because "less qualified URMs" took their place are people who were rejected because of weak critical thinking skills and a habit of blaming others for their own shortcomings or bad luck.</p>
<p>I disagreed with AA before I was rejected from Penn. So really, my reasons behind not supporting it are only in a small way related to the fact that I was rejected. I'm not sure I would have been admitted had the standards been the same for everyone. But the point is, they are not the same for everyone. The standards are SO MUCH LOWER for URMs. I don't understand why URMs don't take offense to this. Isn't this kind of undermining their intelligence and work during high school? </p>
<p>Last year when I was applying to college with my peers, I just really got to see how unfair this system is. My high school was extremely diverse and as acceptance letters started arriving, it was just fascinating to me how many URM's were getting acceptance after acceptance from elite business schools, near-impossible Ivys, etc etc, while the white kids who had had a nearly identical experience in high school, afforded all the same opportunities, were getting rejected. Oftentimes with MUCH better stats. The most painful to watch were the extremely rich Mexican, mixed race, and African American students in my class, wearing their Tiffany jewelry and slinging their Gucci school bags, beer bonging every weekend, getting accepted to schools where they would probably do nothing but host more than enough raging parties with free hard liquor to keep the entire student body satisfied for freshman year. I don't understand how this at all promotes diversity. It is a fact that if colleges find an URM who can pay full tuition, that kid will be in like that. He or she will fill their "unspoken quota," and not even cause a strain on the financial aid department. Brilliant. </p>
<p>No one has yet addressed my comments on other prejudices that still exist in the world. Give me some reasons why AA is justified and giving preferential treatment to obese teens is not.</p>
<p>You already know why you were not accepted to Penn as you said yourself...</p>
<p>I got rejected ED last year from Penn with good scores and GPA, excellent ECs, great essays...blah, blah...we've all heard it before. **The thing is, I was NO WHERE near where I needed to be in terms of grades or test scores. Everyone needs to wake up and smell the coffee: basically no one gets into an Ivy without near perfect EVERYTHING. I wish I would have listened, but of course, I thought I was the exception!*</p>
<p>I wanted what you want: an intellectual environment, nice people, stimulating conversation...but here is the thing: because you're a smart and interesting person, you will have smart and interesting friends anywhere you end up. Such a small percentage of Ivy applicants actually get in, so just think of all the rejects! They have to end up somewhere, and they will most likely end up in one of many, many fabulous schools that you have a great shot of getting into. </p>
<p>I wish I wouldn't have looked at the rank at all when I applied to schools. My advice to you is to burn any magazines with college rankings, make a list of things you want in a school, and then find schools that fit that description. Spend 60% of your time researching your safeties, 38% researching matches, and 2% on a reach school.*</p>
<p>CityGal... I think you need to deal with some of your pent up agression.</p>
<p>I work in admission... and actually I just finished a yearly report I had to turn in as a a mutlicultural recruitment was quite upsetting. Despite AA, the admit rate for African-Americans was 20% less than whites, for Latinos it was 20% less than whites, and for Asians 10% less than whites. Of course, this is where I work. But, I read Chronicles in Higher Education and trends mirror that. How did I come to this conclusion ...research.</p>
<p>I hope you utlize your college education to develop and research, critical thinking, and analytical skills. You can not use your high school for the basis of your argument... too small of a sample. </p>
<p>Also, I'm really tired of people stating their statistics. If admissions were that easy, admissions counselors wouldn't spend so much time reading applications. I.E. evaluating trends at a high school, looking at academic rigor based upon what courses are available at school. Admissions, also look for students with depth, and immaturity (despite grades) can speak volumes in an application via the essay and recommendations.</p>
<p>Correction... 30% less for African-Americans...less than whites</p>
<p>My D attends a school with the following #s'
7.3 African americans
13.5 % asians
4.5 % hispanic
4% native americans
.7% multi racial</p>
<p>what does this mean</p>
<p>for every black student on campus there are 9.5 majority students
for every Asian student on campus there are 5.3 majority students for every Hispanic student on campus there are 14.2 majority students
for every native american student on campus there are 17.4 majority students </p>
<p>
[quote]
The most painful to watch were the extremely rich Mexican, mixed race, and African American students in my class, wearing their Tiffany jewelry and slinging their Gucci school bags, beer bonging every weekend, getting accepted to schools where they would probably do nothing but host more than enough raging parties with free hard liquor to keep the entire student body satisfied for freshman year.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>BTW, </p>
<p>If this is happening at Penn or any other elite school, there is an overwhelming chance that you will come across more "wearing tiffany, slinging gucci, and beer bonging every weekend" who are not people of color than you will find all persons of color combined who fit this sterotype.</p>
<p>As a group, African Americans, and particularly women, have the lowest prevalence of binge drinking. In 1999, only 16 percent of African American students binged, as compared to 49 percent of white students. </p>