Affirmative Action has gone too far

<p>Um, Asians haven't fought for AA, you just said why: they dont' want it. So why are you attacking me?</p>

<p>Just because a discriminated minority has a different view on AA doesn't mean the rest of the discriminated minorities can't have it. If you don't want it, fine-but dont' try to deprive the rest of the population of it just because you dont' feel you need it. It's like a blind person rejecting the seeing eye dog, ok great. Taking seeing eye dogs away from the rest of blind people, not so great</p>

<p>reverse discrimination exists. for some reason, we'll never all be equal. "equal opportunity for all" has clearly not been the case. we are all one species. i hate it when people pull the race card. who cares? i dont care if ur red, white, green, black, purple, or gray! If you're qualified, you're qualified. and if you're not, it sucks, but you're not. end of story. you shouldnt be able to be advanced in life or demoted in life because of the color of your skin. it's just a sad reality in today's world.</p>

<p>Asian Americans don't want the preferential treatment that comes with affirmative action. I think it's because they don't want to feel like they didn't get in on their own merit. However, that doesn't mean they don't want equality. They're just advocating for equality in a different way than URM's. URM's want AA (for obvious reasons) as a way of bringing equality (whether or not equality is achieved is a matter of debate). Asian Americans want to abolish AA based on race as a way of establishing equality.</p>

<p>It shouldn't be, needadecision, but unfortunately it was for about 300 years before now. The fact is that recognized URMs were treated unequally for centuries while the middle class white man got to strive and succeed. </p>

<p>Please, you were not kept out of college because of a urm, other factors lead to everyone's rejection. And besides, ten years from now, no one is going to care whether your degree is from princeton or state u. if you live your life grumbling about how much greater you would be if that dumb urm hadn't kept you out of your favorite college. You don't always get what you want. That's life. Deal with it</p>

<p>Norcalguy, again, if you want to succeed on an uneven playing field and rub it in society's faces, then good for you!!! I'm not taking that away from you. But that's no reason for you to force ME to do it too. Read my blind analogy</p>

<p>"a minority student who gets into a fine institution like Pton with a 1220 SAT score and a 2.9 GPA CANNOT HANDLE THE RIGOROUS CURRICULUM. How can they be expected to! The 1440 SAT kids have been working hard their whole lives, and are used to being under stress. I'll be interested to see what the dropout rates are for next year."</p>

<p>who would that person be? the student with the 2.9 GPA, do they really exist? How do you know that their GPA isn't low because they have horrible things happening at home? How do you know they don't have an illness? SAT scores aren't everything either. The valedictorian from my school last year had a 1290 SAT. She's at Cal right now as a molecular bio major, and she's gotten all A's so far. There's even people with low GPAs that get 1440 on the SAT.</p>

<p>red_dragon, you speak as if blacks have been the only race ever discriminated against. Why do you group whites all together? My poor Irish ancestors aren't the same people who came over on the Mayflower. They expierenced adversity like everybody else [No Dogs or Irish, etc.] </p>

<p>Why are you against affirmative action based on economic status? Why should minorities (like yourself) who went to elite high schools be given an advantage?</p>

<p>Read the first four pages of this thread. Maize rhetorically ate like 4 or 5 people alive.</p>

<p>Furthermore, his first post was right. Affirmative action has gotten out of control.</p>

<p>Maize didn't eat anyone alive. He just made assumptions and he assumed he was right. Anyone that thinks he's correct about the whole AA thing would think he won this debate. Meh, not like I care. He's not changing college admissions policies. AA is still used, regarldless of your ranting...I know this is immature, but I can't help it. To Maize- :P</p>

<p>"Conclusion: There are so many factors that effect their decision, and each and every factor exists for a reason."</p>

<p>Can I be a dick and point out that proper word use might be one of those factors? ;-)</p>

<p>Red_dragone [sic], I think that you're missing the point. Most elite schools feel as if they have enough asians as is (at least in the opinions of the powers-that-be) so adding more asians would be undesirable, except where it increased meaningless statistics like mean SAT score, class rank, etc.</p>

<p>I support AA on principle (as a white/asian male, that's not necessarily easy) but I don't know how effective it is in its current incarnation. Certainly there is a vast oversimplification involved in the implicit assumption that AA admits only wealthy blacks while poor whites are rejected, but it's more complex than that. But I do think that race is given precedence over economics in the calculus of AA, and I don't think that this is just. The reality is that there are (anecdotally at least) hundreds of asians in low income homes who achieve high SAT scores and whatnot. There is undoubtledly a cultural imperative toward such achievements, but that doesn't detract from them.</p>

<p>Regardless, your comment about asians needing to fight for AA is absurd. Asians don't need AA to be competitive applicants (as a complete segment of the population) in the applicant pools of elite universities, whereas blacks, hispanics, and native americans, to lesser or greater degrees, do. That is why AA will never aid asians. But at the same time, don't trivialize what Asians have done as a culture, because they have been able to erase the effects of oppression almost completely through hard work.</p>

<p>And in a sense, it is unfortunate, because the ultimate result of AA is that it creates a system in which the achievements of underrepresented minority groups are marginalized. I think it is a great step for a URM to not check the minority box, but this only makes a difference to admissions officers. They cannot erase the imputed stigma of minority underachieving (again, I speak only in the shallow statistical sense) and are forced to deal with it (whatever degree it may be in) at the university they attend.</p>

<p>In any event, I don't have a conclusion of any real significance. But still I would rather take the chance that AA allows some people with real potential to achieve great things in society and then bring about social change than ignore it altogether and have elite universities admit those who excel the most academically (which inevitably will lead to a class of almost exclusively whites, asians, and indians)</p>

<p>And since my comments will inevitably be judged in the context of what I have achieved and what life experiences I am speaking from, I can say that I was accepted to Princeton last year as a Canadian applicant.</p>

<p>Norcalguy...you should be careful about saying that Asians don't want Affirmative Action. There are a couple of Asian girls here at my school who would love to have it.</p>

<p>When I first came to this board, I didn't even know what a URM was. But I noticed that on the "What are my Chances?" topic, it seems like everyone who has a URM card to play plays it, sometimes asking if some small fractional minority heritage would help. Legacies are not the same thing, IMO, because the issue there is money.</p>

<p>"Read the first four pages of this thread. Maize rhetorically ate like 4 or 5 people alive.</p>

<p>Furthermore, his first post was right. Affirmative action has gotten out of control"</p>

<p>He didnt eat anyone he just wanted to debate semantics and had the initial assumption that "poor people are seen as inferior"(which was in contradiction with his belief in socioeconomic AA) but I do agree people should read those first pages most.Legacies were previously disscussed.</p>

<p>I personally thought it was a given that everyone believed it is unfair poor people should be seen as inferior but apparently some privileged kids showed this is not the case.</p>

<p><<when i="" first="" came="" to="" this="" board,="" didn't="" even="" know="" what="" a="" urm="" was.="" but="" noticed="" that="" on="" the="" "what="" are="" my="" chances?"="" topic,="" it="" seems="" like="" everyone="" who="" has="" card="" play="" plays="" it,="" sometimes="" asking="" if="" some="" small="" fractional="" minority="" heritage="" would="" help.="" legacies="" not="" same="" thing,="" imo,="" because="" issue="" there="" is="" money.="">></when></p>

<p>? Not all legacies wil bring in money.</p>

<p>It is interesting to me how posters like you focus on the various people posting with URM questions including questionable URM heritage and yet don't focus at all on the people who post with weak stats hoping that legacies will somehow get them into their dream schools and the people who post with very weak legacy connections. Honestly, colleges don't care if one's great aunt or third cousin went there.</p>

<p>When it comes to the legacy admissions tips, incidentally, in most cases the beneficiaries are white. Why? Many of the country's colleges, including Ivies either forbid blacks or imposed real quotas on black students until the late 1960s. Princeton, for instance, didn't accept black students until 1945. Thus black students are less likely to be able to play the legacy card since in many cases their parents and ancestors were not able to attend such colleges even if those parents and ancestors had stellar academic records.</p>

<p>Where are the complaints about that kind of "affirmative action" -- that whites have long been the benficiaries of?</p>

<p>"It is interesting to me how posters like you focus on the various people posting with URM questions including questionable URM heritage and yet don't focus at all on the people who post with weak stats hoping that legacies will somehow get them into their dream schools and the people who post with very weak legacy connections."</p>

<p>Northstarmom,
First of all, "people like me" weren't even initially aware that people got "points" for being of some particular ethnicity. Nor am I complaining about legacy applications. People on this board are far more saavy than I am. But I do know this: there are seven pages on this thread, and many other threads asking for posting of stats, ECs, gender and race. I am only saying that MANY people clearly think that gender and race matter. BTW, we have no family legacies either (parents were first generation and some did not even attend any college), but I'm sure that colleges look a little closer at families who have a history of financial contributions. Every admission my son gained was by hard work and excellence, which is the way it should be, IMO. </p>

<p>You also said: "I also think that when some individuals who lack character are disappointed, they tend to scapegoat other groups of people instead of considering their own flaws or attributing their lack of success to bad luck."</p>

<p>I'm sure that sometimes students of excellent character are denied admission just because they aren't "right" in terms of the desired class demographics.</p>

<p>northstarmom, what are you doing responding to posts here? obviously wisdom is not welcomed here. these bitter rejects will grasp a hold of this issue to death, because its the easiest excuse for their rejections- they refuse to look at their own merits and instead scapegoat others. theres no way you can get through their thick skulls. game over.</p>

<p>Get over yourselves.<br>
Considering how much flack the SAT's and other standardized test have received lately, most colleges are looking for character and not test scores. The addition of the supplement to the common application is a clear indication of how much weight the essay(s) and personal statements carry in admission selections. Furthermore, a myriad of extra curricular activities and community service projects are for the most part meaningless if an applicant fails to address exactly why they engaged in such activities in their application. Your GPA and SAT scores are just numbers. If you fail to show any individuality, personality, or creativity in your application, then there is a good chance that you won't be admitted. The aforementioned particularly applies to so-called "model minority" Asians that apply to the ivies and get rejected. It amazing that everyone on this thread failed to mention that most prestigious colleges limited the amount of minorities they accepted and gave free tuition to white male GI’s after WWII. The fact of the matter is that everyone benefits from AA regardless of race and economic background. For those that believe to so cultured, do you really want to go to a college where everyone talks the same, looks the same, and has absolutely nothing to offer anyone else?
Stop blaming your failure(s) on others; you’ll never get anywhere.</p>

<p>Im from India, and i dont really know much about affirmative action in the US. </p>

<p>Its counterpart in India, though, SUCKS. If anyone asked me to pick one thing which is most responsible for the pathetic state of things here, i would say its the reservations</p>

<p>northstarmom,</p>

<p>The argument about blacks (and other minorities) not being able to play the legacy card is a poor excuse. First of all, legacies fall statistically in line with the applicant pool at most elite colleges, where as minorities statistically do not. Asians also can't really play the legacy card, but that doesn't hurt them; the fact that there are too many qualified asians does.</p>

<p>Furthermore, the legacies = white AA also ignores the fact that white legacies make up a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall population, whereas all underrepresented minorities reap the benefits (and implied inferiority complex) of AA.</p>

<p>so just because legacies are a smaller percentage means we should let them slide...hmm...and also, the amount of Blacks applying to competitive schools has gone up but its not like its a huge number. Usually, most legacies of competitive schools do apply. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004051001040%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004051001040&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>