<p>Look farhansfa, here's the deal.<br>
Suppose you have a person W. W is white has a lawyer and a doctor as parents. W was preached about college since W was 3 yrs old. W was able to go to a great school public and/or private because his parents lived in the best part of town. W was able to recieve tutoring whenever he needed it and attended classes to enhance his SAT/ACT scores. This person had the financial resources to learn many different talents. Not surprisingly, this person did very well in highschool</p>
<p>Now you have person B. This person is black and B's family lives in the projects. Both B's parents never attended college and don't really care whether B attends college or not. Most of B's friends skip class and flunk out of most of their classes. B has a job b/c B's family don't have enough money. B tries to excell in school but B does not have the backing of B's freinds or family. B does ok in highschool, but as good as A.
Now suppose A and B both apply to the same school. Your telling me it's perfectly and equally fair to judge A and B the same? Should the college give B a little bit more leverage to B considering his circumstances?...The answer i think is YES.
I'm not saying all african americans are in the same situation as B, but you will be surprised how many are. This is the truth. Affirmative action is important because it tries to level the playing field. Think about it.
I think you have a very rational point, but you must realize that it just isn't that easy</p>
<p>By the way, i'm and Egyptian-American muslim</p>
<p>Ahh yes..its good to see that the visigoths have come out to post. I bet the RNC paid Vincent77 to say that.</p>
<p>ok no1 listen to vinny....we've already concluded he can't argue coherently.</p>
<p>and i think the only reason you didnt' get in to many schools you wanted was cuz of a 910 SATs and your highschool gpa :)</p>
<p>sarcasm...right......betta be!!!!! LOL</p>
<p>I'm saying...i'm not gonna take too many arguments seriously from someone who couldn't get into Binghampton or Albany. Its mean..but true.</p>
<p>and i know several African Americans...they've been best friends of mine since 9th grade, and I've spent much time in their homes. I've also seen that their parents pressure them to do well, and encourage hard work full heartedly. There is nothing better than watching one of their kids do well in school or go off to college. But circumstances don't matter to admissions committees, unless it's for financial aid....if you are 1/8 African American, you're entitled to post it on your application and recieve the AA benefits. Now...affirmative action was very useful in earlier decades...it did...indeed...lower discrimination in the work place....but then, defacto segregation was still widespread, and anti-integration was very common. Now, we live in a merit based society...a white male whose parents didnt' go to college, who works to support his family, and still manages to do decent in school...is entitled to the same benefits under your philosophy, correct? But the fact is, admissions committees don't see that...he wont' get the same advantages as B...sad to say, but he won't. We're not operating under a system of class based affirmative action...it's race based....if it was more class/circumstance based, i could honestly say it might be different...although I do sense some reluctancy even now....I'm a big supporter of large sums of financial aid for those who can't afford college....even race based financial aid, as long as there is a certain income threshold....But I've seen ppl from low class families, whose parents didn't go to college still work hard and make good grades...and ended up in college....take for example one of my friends who goes to WVU...he's African American...neither his mother nor father went to college, and he wasn't the best off sad to say....:(....but he worked hard, did well, and got in...and in his case, i do believe affirmative action had nothing to do with his acceptance...he had a 3.6 GPA in highschool, and a good SAT score...he surpassed the median scores/GPA for WVU's average admitee....he did it...he got in to a decent school through hard work and initiative...</p>
<p>BTW....I'm a Republican too, so don't hate :p....I'm more of a "McCain Republican"....a tad bit more moderate than your average....I love any legislation that promotes civil rights....i just think affirmative action has lived out its usefulness</p>
<p>Whats wrong with being a republican. I am a Conservative republican and did vote for bush. and think he id doing a great job. and do support the war.</p>
<p>But you can be a democrat to if you want to be lied to. Jackass</p>
<p>and yeah my SAT may have been a little low. But High gpa, NHS. 4 years varsity football, track and wrestling as well as chess, Moot court and student goverment. These all did me very well. and if I still ahve the letter from binghamton I will scan it for you,</p>
<p>the point is...no matter what circumstance you're in...you can do it...it might take alot of work but you can do well regardless of where you rparents came from, or what their economic background is...this is AMERICA...they don't call it the land of opportunity for nothin!!!.. if you're a black male and have say...a 3.6 or something in highschool..live in Va....apply to UVa, VT, JMU, etc.....and affirmative action wasn't present...and you happened not to get in to UVa because of this swing factor...you still have options open to you!...VT is a fine institution, and does breed successful students...shouldn't minorities be treated like everyone else? I dont' know how much I've stressed this, but provide all the financial aid that is necessary...hell I don't care if they pass legislation that compells Universities to give minorities full tuition if their household income is below a threshold....but meritwise...we should all be judged the same....</p>
<p>Get out of this thread...no college will tell you you didn't get in because of too many EOP applicants....this is MY thread and i don't want you posting in it because you're racist and all you do is change the subject and bring about unneeded conflict to threads meant to be peaceful exchanges of viewpoints..not to mention you're incoherent.</p>
<p>and i didn't vote for bush...he's a horrible president and doesn't have what it takes to sit in the oval office...you talk about being lied to?...don't get me started on Dubya....do not...you probably don't know half of his policy plans, nor anything he did in his first term so don't come in here arguing politics...please just leave...</p>
<p>and we are NOT changing the subject of this thread..</p>
<p>I dont think affirmative action really has a place anymore. It made a little more sense when schools would actively discriminate in admissions but now, I doubt they pay much attention to race at all.</p>
<p>Any sort of requirement or quota will end up discriminating against another group. I can understand if a school must make a choice between two equal candidates and chooses the minority one to increase diversity but then there are problems when they take a less qualified minority instead of a better qualified white person. There is the famous incident at a very selective med school (or specialization program or something) where the available spots were small enough that you could tell exactly what was going on. Long story short, an underqualified black man took the spot of a white man and legal action ensued...</p>
<p>I dont agree the comparison of persons W and B. That is a rich vs. poor argument and not a white vs black (unless you want to apply the racial stereotypes). I never had those things you speak of yet I can still go to a top school. I come from a very diverse high school and there are people both white and black who fit the description of B. It comes down to whether they care about their education not their economic position (we have plenty of people with good money who would rather wander the halls and flip burgers).</p>
<p>I think the only thing they should look for is more of a "realization" that school does matter. I have a friend (black girl) who was actually expelled early into her high school career at which point she realized that school does matter. Sure, the first part of her transcript sucks but she worked hard and even managed to join into the second year of IB HL English (not something that happens). That story would look different on an application than some kid who smoked themselves retarded but thought they might need to try a little to get to college (so they could smoke some more).</p>
<p>The fact is</p>
<p>If you are Black and Think and Plan. You can get a free education.</p>
<p>It is that simple, Its the ones who dont care that then complain.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I dont think affirmative action really has a place anymore.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree, the smartest most qualified applicants should get the positions, regardless of race. The End.</p>
<p>The Problem with many is that they dont relize.</p>
<p>Black hold themselves down.</p>
<p>Buying $200 sneakers and driving cadilacs is not somthing to complain about but they do.</p>
<p>Il glad Bill cosby recognized this.</p>
<p>and then if this is not true. Why do asians do so well when then come to america?</p>
<p>Yeah but I know a person with only a 18 on their ACT from an inner city school. He was second in his class!! Of course in was in an easier major and he unfortunately wasn't qualified enough b/c he is going home so maybe that wasn't the best example.</p>
<p>I don't think colleges should let people in based on race if their GPA is far below the means b/c it is hurting 2 people. The college b/c they are losing someone. And the person b/c they are in over their head. So both parties lose. I still believe that affirmative action is only over the line if an unqualified person gets in. I don't care if they're below the average or below an "equal" candidate but as long as they're qualified to be where they are, then there shouldn't be an issue.</p>
<p>The issue only comes into play when unqualified applicants get in and that's where it sucks. But hell I've seen a lot of white people I thought shouldnt have gotten in. White people often have legacy and money on their side. (I think nepotism like Bush's is worse than affirmative action ANY DAY).</p>
<p>Also remember what the head of admissions at U of I college of law said, "If the law class was made up of 180 22-something white guys, even if they all were the best candidates, it would be a pretty boring place. I remember on guy in my classm, Mikey, who stated in a discussion that farmers don't have to pay taxes. Of course a 30-year-old farmer happened to be sitting behind him of about jumped down the first three rows to get at him. If the class was made up of 50 white, male, suburban Mikeys, that might have been said and no one would be the wiser. That is why race and other factors like it, socioeconomic status & gender are considered."</p>
<p>But also admitting on just race is bad too b/c just because you're colored doesn't mean you come with the stereotypical background.</p>
<p>ok your last post made no sense vincent.</p>
<p>but michelec, ottocow, and illi i agree with you full heartedly
Financial matters should not be confused with racial matters...this is where most ppl tend to disagree</p>
<p>I mean when I played football in Hs. i was the only white on my team.</p>
<p>I have friends who has 620's on sat and a 69 average in HS. I am not exagerating. many of them got into much better school that me. Some becouse football and some not becouse of it. Sure I am happy they did get into the school, but they are only there becouse they were black.</p>
<p>and belive it or not in NY with the EOP they all got free rides. 28k+ a year and its all covered with no worries. But then again I am still glad and happy they got that chance.</p>
<p>well let's add a twist....who supports AA Quotas?!...this should heat things up a lil if we find a supporter with a legitimate argument</p>
<p>HAH..you're not exagerating???....if you end your senior year with an F average then you don't get a diploma buddy...</p>
<p>and if your friends really did go full ride..then it's for athletic ability...they got in cuz they proved themselves on the field or in the court...not because they were black...you don't know your stats, you don't know how to argue based on FACTS...we're not talkin about how vinny views the world.</p>
<p>what the hell are you talking about...read my first post...if you can't argue coherently then don't argue in this thread!</p>
<p>a 69 is not a F.</p>
<p>a 65 is passing here in NY for Hs. also in college at NYIT and NYU both it is 60</p>
<p>farhansfa you are dumber than i thoght, You come with these super fast answers that make no sense.</p>
<p>and read post #30</p>
<p>also take a look at #39. Did you forget about that or are u that dumb</p>
<p>Football on a Court, ur special</p>
<p>Okay...this is what's gonna happen...we here on CC are going to have a mature discussion on an issue that is very pertinant to our lives. That discussion will be well-thought out, erudite, and will reflect the highest standard that our respective institutions expect. I.e...i'm ignoring vincent.</p>
<p>I'd be willing to hear arguments that AA should focus more on leveling the playing field in terms of socio-economic status, which would extend opportunity to all people who otherwise would not have the chance. However, you can't deny that in America, the quality of your educational opportunites before college depend far too much on your skin color and how much your parents make. We should be striving for a society where it doesn't matter where you come from, but where you're going. The argument against affirmative action assumes that we are already there, but we are not. Mend it, don't end it people.</p>
<p>In a partisan framework, I don't trust the Republican party because on this and so many other issues, people like vincent are calling the shots. You "McCain Republicans" should do what he should do..come on over. You'll find my party much more open to moderate politics.</p>