Affirmative Action In Admissions

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>OK sooo....I was just wondering who supports/doesn't support priority on the basis of race or ethnicity in college admissions!...Let's keep the arguments clean and COHERENT...Racism is not welcome in this thread, so if you plan on using it, get out.</p>

<p>I was reading a thread, and it was talking about how an African American freshman from VT got in to UVa with a 3.3 at VT and a highschool GPA that wasn't really anything out of the ordinary...~3.5ish.....I'm Pakistani, had a 3.61 in highschool and a 4.0 at VT, and the Dean of Admissions said I was competetive...but there was also a 40-50% chance I wouldn't get in, depending on the applicant pool...I mean I got in with some extra effert...but I just don't see that as very fair...</p>

<p>Personally, I DON'T support giving priority on the basis of race in admissions...I think it should be done on the basis of merit, and those individuals with financial difficulties...like that seriously can't afford 6-13K a year... regardless of race.... be given large sums of financial aid, including loans, which, if they graduate, can pay back during employment or through part time employment. Just an opinon...I'm welcome to others who can justify it for me...i'm just having a hard time understanding why it should be a legitimate policy.</p>

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<p>Give it a rest... I am currently at a school where there are only about 100 black students and racial tensions are extremely high. At LEAST twice a month the black students on campus have to deal with somebodies insensitivity and blatant racism. If Aff. Action needs to be used in order to get more students of color on campus, then I by all means support it. If it weren't for the black students on my campus, I doubt I would be able to cope with the nonsense that goes on. Its about more than making things equal, its about making sure minority students are comfortable and able to grow and learn within the community. God, take two seconds to see what a difference it can make to just shut up about how someone took "your" spot and see the positive sides of things. </p>

<p>I sit in class all the time with some of the most intellectually dense kids I have EVER met. You want to talk about merit? You do know that there are a whole slew of white kids that get into college just because they are able to pay the tuition in full, right? Well, these kids make up 90% of the student body here. And the vast majority of them are white. </p>

<p>Have you EVER thought about what its like to be at a school where you cannot date, because there are only 25 or so black guys who are even slightly eligible, and the white guys would never be seen in public with you? Do you know what its like to want to go to a party and dance to hip hop, dancehall, and reggae, but you can't because all the parties are just people standing around with a beer? Do you know what its like to want to talk about your experiences in life only to have people look down on you for being from the ghetto, or because when you get comfortable, you begin to use colloquial speech that is common among black people? Do you know what its like to be asked by everyone 'what sport do you play?' before they bother to ask what your major is? Do you know what its like to have your white 'friends' speak to you when the two of you are alone, but when they are with their (white) friends, they try to pretend you dont exist? Do you know what its like to have to drive 2 and a half hours just to get your hair done because no one in your schools town knows how to deal with 'ethnic' hair? </p>

<p>People constantly complain about Aff. Action and how it needs to go away, but they have absolutely NO solutions to replace it with.
Whatever... the fact is, Aff. Action is here to stay for a while, so deal with it.</p>

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<p>Nope, not goin to :)....like i said...I support extreme measures to deal out financial aid for those who can't afford it, but I don't think that someone with worse grades than mine, or anyone elses for that matter, should get a spot at a top tier university just for their skin color. Racial preference is NOT constitutional...now the Baake case was a step, through the elmination of quotas....i support the Baake Decision full heartedly. Now...on the point of "getting more colored students on campus"...I'm sorry...but African Americans have the same opportunity to study, do well in highschool, and achieve the grades necessary to get in to a top tier university, just like every other student, whether brown, white, green, purple...whatever...it doesn't matter...a certain pool of students shouldn't be allowed to make lower grades and still have a chance at the same university their counterparts of different skin color, with the exact same grades wouldn't get in to. They earn the grades...and you give them the financial aid they need to secure their future.</p>

<p>As for racial tension, that's for single minded, unintellegent individuals who try to convince themselves they're superior due to skin color. Racism is a horrible scar on American society, and within a few generations, it will only be present in trace amounts...or so I hope...</p>

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<p><hands out="" baseball="" bats=""> "Everyone still beat the dead horse."</hands></p>

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<p>Grades in highschool or on the SAT are not assigned according to race...blacks are not withheld from doing certain Extracurriculars and not others..they have the EXACT same opportunity as anyone else to make good grades and be active in their schools or communities...it's not like anyone is inhibiting them...if they recieve racism, then they should ignore it and know that the ppl who give it to them are very insecure and need to reify race to make themselves feel better, because they feel that's the ONLY way they can be superior...when really skin color does NOT determine superiority...look at Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Barak Obama, Al Sharpton, Johnny Cochran...so on and so forth</p>

<p>The point is...we are NO LONGER in the 19th century...there's no segregation, no unequal opportunity to go to a good public school...the only thing holding back a majority of African Americans(and it's very sad) is financial stability. Like I said....help them out with the money and let them excell and secure their future....other than that...they should be able to do everything else on their own hard work...do you know how many scholarships are offered to black students? how much financial aid you can recieve from top tier universities? look at UVa...they're increasing efforts to give extensive financial aid in larger sums to individuals who can't afford college.</p>

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<p>And I'm sorry...but I don't think somebody with a 3.3 at the same institution I'm attending get priority over my 4.0...it's not fair to me, it's not fair to hundreds of other applicants.</p>

<p>And like joev said..."beating the dead horse" means affirmative action is already dead...although that statement is false in a sense...it's not dead...it's dying...slowly but surely</p>

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<p>When people think about affirmative action, they should also take into account other ethnic minorities that benefit from it. From the sound of the posts already, it seems as if blacks are being targeted, when they are not the only ones who receive this tip factor. Some asian groups (by no means all), and Hispanics and Native Americans also receive this preference.</p>

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<p>Yes they do...and EACH OF THEM have the same opportunity to do well in secondary school or at community colleges/lower tier institutions...no1 is inhibiting them from acting on the basis of their abilities...it's individual choice...and because one individual does a worse overall than another, but has a different skin color, shouldn't give him/her priority over the ones that work harder and do better</p>

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<p>it's not like anyone is inhibiting them...if they recieve racism, then they should ignore it ...look at Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Barak Obama, Al Sharpton, Johnny Cochran...so on and so forth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p>

<p>The idea that minorities should just ignore the racism that can often leave them without access to job promotions, adequate housing, equal educational options...</p>

<p>Ridiculous. I'm already done talking to you. </p>

<p>Peace up! A-town down!</p>

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<p>You've done well at not convincing me the slightest :)</p>

<p>"equal educational options..."....you believe in affirmative action and you think that constitutes equal educational options? That's an oxymoron if i've ever heard one...if anything...African Americans benefit through this pollicy, and every other race loses out. You don't know how many white, southern Asian, or far Eastern Asians with high credentials get turned down, and an African American or a Filipino with lower stats get accepted. You preach equality, but you promote inequality.</p>

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<p>Having different opinions is fine, but PLEASE understand the issue before you just go on whining about how life isn't fair and how the world owes you someting.</p>

<p>Not that I feel the need to convince you of anything, but here are a few justifications for affirmative action (not all relate to college admissions):</p>

<p>1) Blacks, hispanics, women (to a lesser extent now), native americans, etc. are grossly underrepresented in many top universities, graduate programs, and many high-paying jobs. While it's not so much the case today, historically this has been due to the active exclusion of these groups by the white male majority. AA gives people the opportunity to succeed when they never have before.</p>

<p>2) Believe it or not, racism/sexism/etc is still alive and well, and if it weren't for AA in many instances jobs, etc. would not go to minorities even if they are qualified.</p>

<p>3) Being in a diverse gives ALL students a more enriching experience. We live in an extremely diverse country, and while you might have grown up quite insulated from that fact, chances are that at some point you'll have to interact with people of a variety of different races and backgrounds. If you aren't exposed to that diversity you aren't going to be equipped to deal with it once you graduate. Sociologists have done many studies and written many groups detailing how if people interact in diverse groups, once they leave that group they will be more likely to associate with diverse people outside of that group, with the converse also being true. By creating a diverse campus, colleges seek to decrease some of the rampant racism that still exists in this country.</p>

<p>4) By giving minorities opportunities to succeed at a high level, they can later act as role models to future generations, and help inspire kids who might not otherwise have had very high hopes for themselves (due to a variety of different factors).</p>

<p>5) Preferential treatment always has and always will exist. Alumni children and people with other connections get preference. Rich people who can donate tons of money get preference. AA is just another dimension of prefential treatment that has always been around.</p>

<p>As there have been many, many, many other threads about this topic, i will leave it at that.</p>

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<p>I do understand the basis for affirmative action, I just disagree that there should be preferential treatment on the basis of race. It is a very complex issue, and yes, minorities have been opressed, and will continue to be opressed. But the fact is, it's not equal for everyone...ppl that work hard, get the grades to qualify for admission in a top university should be the ones that win out, and African Americans have that opportunity. I'm a Pakistani Muslim, and I don't get any preference...and trust me...I have faced racism...Do I like it that ppl call me terrorist to my face and behind my back?</p>

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<p>Nothing in life is equal for everyone.</p>

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<p>until any college comes out and says that in order to get into a school you need a 4.0 and a 1600, then you all should give this topic a rest. It is not up to us to decide who is qualified for a a school or not? That decession belongs to the school. Just because schools give you a range of their accepted students does not mean that they are requierments.</p>

<p>So you didn't get into a school or you had a "tougher tine" ( how do u know this?), BOO HOO ...... Apply to another school that thinks you are qualified or thinks that you are a good fit.</p>

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<p>all forms of dejur discrimination have been eliminated...and although AA was an attempt to compensate and bring about more equality, it's done quite the opposite. We no longer live in pre-1960s America...we have moved from a society plagued with racial discrimination and separation to one in which all groups can live together in peace. AA is by no means beneficial...instead it leaves minorities with a sense that they have to work hard, but not nearly as hard as their counterparts that don't benefit from AA, to succeed, and hence, it's a way in which the majority can be opressed</p>

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<p>I disagree with this. Every urm who got into an ivy league school or other highly selective schools at my school earlier this month are very qualified. Each of them work very hard, have GREAT grades comparable to the "white and asian" students, and do not "feel that they don't have to work hard" compared to any of the other students. The urms who didn't work hard at all at my school were rejected from the ivies and other highly selective schools that they applied to. Each urm who gets into a very competitive college is going to be qualified, and to say who's more qualified, and who is less qualified is ridiculous.</p>

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<p>you are not giving me facts about urms "working less hard to get into elite schools".</p>

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<p>I'm just gonna copy my very first CC post...so long ago.</p>

<p>This is my inaugural post, so I'm excited. </p>

<p>Moving on to the subject at hand, as a Black male, I'd like to relate some first-hand experiences about AA, and ease some of those fears that many of my racial majority friends have.</p>

<p>By the way, I'm from the Chicago Area. I go to a competitive public high school in the far west suburbs.</p>

<p>I earned a 33 on my ACT, which converts roughly to a 1470 on the SAT I. I have a 3.848 / 4.0 GPA, and I have a butt-load of extra-curriculars and achievements, including national awards for musical composition and numerous nationally competitive scholarship awards. In addition, I have accumulated about 1,100 hours of community service, and I organized a neighborhood book drive that collected over 2,000 used books for a low-income daycare in my area. My class rank sucks: 169/742, so I might be SOL on that. But my school is competitive, as we have the 7th highest average ACT score in Illinois.</p>

<p>And most importantly, I am not a Columbia applicant. I did apply to HYP, along with Dartmouth and Cornell.</p>

<p>Affirmative Action all comes down to supply and demand. The Ivy League and colleges in general have universally agreed that diversity is essential to a good college experience. This diversity isn't just racial. That is why people with EC's stand a better chance than those without EC's. If Columbia needs composers, than those who can write music are in luck. If Columbia needs chemistry buffs, then those cats who got 800's on their SAT II Chem tests are in the money. And if Columbia needs academically qualified Black people, then Black people are in luck. And Columbia...all the Ivies need qualified Blacks badly.</p>

<p>AA exists on two levels. First has to do with recruitment. This is less of a problem at Columbia, whose location in the middle of Manhattan is much more attractive to Black students than Dartmouth, which is literally in the middle of nowhere. Keep in mind that we are talking about less than 800 kids every year. Ivies have to fight through all that, plus the image they have in the Black community, as lily-white, prissy, condescending, subtly racist, pretentious, arrogant... you get the idea. I received a letter from every single Ivy League school, with the exception of Yale (cheapo's only sent me a post card...I don't expect to get in).</p>

<p>Assuming they can attract qualified Black students to apply, then they have the supply and demand thing to deal with. The problem is that there aren't enough Black students to fill the demand. And anybody in A.P Econ will tell you that when the demand exceeds supply, than consumers (Ivies) will do more to get what they're after. Were talking about a small group of kids. Less than 1,000 Black students scored over a 1400 on the SAT or 32 on the ACT last year. A similar grouping of kids, 800 in total, earn National Achievement Finalist status from the PSAT (I am one of those finalists, by the way) Of that 1,000, subtract Historically Black Colleges, which are far more prestigious in the eyes of the Black community than in the eyes of the general public. Then subtract the kids who opt for large state schools that offer butt-loads of money. I can't tell you how many letters I have from schools like U of Iowa, U of Florida, and Iowa State etc telling me how much money they'll give me. What we are left with are probably 200-300 kids who have Ivy League schools as their first choice. When they apply, they get in. What choice do the Ivies have? They don't want to compromise their academic standards too much, but they'll give some wiggle room.</p>

<p>How does this translate into the larger context of admissions? Well, I imagine that Harvard will get substantial numbers of applicants who scored higher than me, have better EC's and achievements, and have better GPA's. However, they can't afford to cast too many kids like me to the wayside, because there simply aren't many qualified Blacks to choose from as qualified Whites. So think of it as a kind of hook. The only difference is that this hook is inherent, while most hooks are earned.</p>

<p>In the end, what we have is a higher accept rate for Blacks than for the population at large.</p>

<p>Is it fair, no, but neither is college admissions. Some people are born with musical ability, is it fair that that should be a factor. Some people are born with athletic ability, is it fair that they should stand a better chance of getting it. This is the real kicker: some people are born smarter than other people, is it fair that Ivies accept them more than other people. Nothing about this entire process is fair, which is why it is such a great experience for teenagers. I think it teaches a great lesson.</p>

<p>My only real problem with AA is that it creates a climate of racial division, where the automatic assumption is that Black students cannot function on the same level with their White counterparts. This assumption, whether people like to admit it or not, is the reason the first person posted the question.</p>

<p>I know I'm not doing the less serious thing, but I think a rational sit-down conversation about AA is good, seeing as though our generation, as the future policy-makers of the country, will have to deal with it (in the U of Michigan AA cases, SCOTUS ruled that AA would need to be revisited by the government in 25 years). So feel free to chime in. </p>

<p>Peace.</p>

<p>*Update: I was accepted at Dartmouth, Cornell, WashU, JHU, Umich, and some lesser schools...rejected at HYP....3.85 and 33 on the ACT...affirmative action my butt!!!! I'm headed to Umich in the fall.</p>

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<p>You just practice what I preach...you got in on your own accord, with your hard work, dedication, and above-average statistics....never did i say there was a divide between white ppl and black ppl or asian ppl and black ppl...there isn't....i'm arguing....if two ppl have similar credentials...one being within a racial majority and the other within the minority at the institution to which he/she is applying...skin color should not be the "make it or break it" factor. </p>

<p>I will quote my first post:</p>

<p>I was reading a thread, and it was talking about how an African American freshman from VT got in to UVa with a 3.3 at VT and a highschool GPA that wasn't really anything out of the ordinary...~3.5ish.....I'm Pakistani, had a 3.61 in highschool and a 4.0 at VT, and the Dean of Admissions said I was competetive...but there was also a 40-50% chance I wouldn't get in, depending on the applicant pool...I mean I got in with some extra effort.</p>

<p>I don't understand why Dean considered me to be competetive with a 40-50% chance of rejection...if both the African American transfer and I have the same opportunity to make distinguished grades, participate in school/community, and prove ourselves worthy of admission. I am by no means a racist, and I don't look down upon African American students at my current institution, nor will I look down upon them at UVa... but to justify my point....I will use Supreme Court decisions on gerrymandering...yes I know, it's a totally different scenario...but the principles are basically the same.....Gerrymandering primarily on the basis of race was declared unconstitutional...dividing constituency on lines based on skin color is a form of discrimination that can be used to prevent extensive minority representation in Congress....Instead each candidate, white, black, Hispanic, etc. must run in constituencies that are not "racially safe."...They will win over constituents with their character, achievements, and goals...now as most of you probably know...gerrymandering does occur, but primarily along party lines or to form safe districts for incumbents. This might be a little bit confusing....but think of universities as constituencies....where individuals must compete to satisfy their election bid...race SHOULD NOT be the determining factor..individual initiative, hard work, and well-roundedness should.....AA can be related to gerrymandering along racial or ethnic lines, and gerrymandering in order to guarantee incumbents safe seats can be related to legacies(get it? legacies...family stays in the same university...candidate represents the same district...it's safe, but there's always the threat of a strong candidate or scandal[related to screwing up in highschool])....one is unconstitutional....the other is unfair but it's upheld....and i've succeeded in painting the most confusing picture ever...</p>

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<p>does anyone KINDA get what I'm saying? I mean I know it's kinda confusing...but it does have deeper constitutional meaning behind it</p>