<p>Lol</p>
<p>My school is like over 90% Hispanic so we don't think of "omg, you only got in 'cause you're hispanic!!" when college decisions come out. :P</p>
<p>Why bother, Dbate? Just ignore them.</p>
<p>Dbate, although I'm not against affirmative action, I can see where you're coming from. I have similar stats to yours, yet I've had even a teacher imply that the only reason I was accepted to three ivy league schools was to help fulfill some sort of quota. But as zapakovex stated:
[quote]
Affirmative action does not suggest that other races are inferior, it merely states that students of the same caliber might have different test scores and GPAs based on race due to unequal opportunities, cultural test bias, etc.
[/quote]
What you have to realize is that the problem is not affirmative action. At the end of the day, if you prove that you can excel above most of your peers even in the face of ever-present adversities (unequal opportunities, cultural test biases, etc.), you deserve to be at Yale.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So this other person came up to me today and asked what my class rank was to mock me and then someone said I only got in because I was black. I was SO MAD
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm black and I believe that affirmative action is necessary and just, as imperfect as it may be. I've never had anyone ask me if I got into a certain college because I'm black. I have, however, been asked if I am a recruited athlete, with nothing to suggest that except my skin colour. </p>
<p>The fact that some people have misconceptions about affirmative action and black people in general is not a valid reason to oppose the system. Affirmative action need not deprecate your achievements unless you let it. It's important to realize that the system exists to recognize that a student's achievements are all the more impressive because of the obstacles he has had to surmount by virtue of his race and/or socioeconomic status. </p>
<p>Affirmative action affirms the dignity of the applicant by acknowledging that had he been raised in a different environment, with access to more resources, his "stats" would likely be on par with, or even surpass, those of wealthier, lighter-skinned applicants. Affirmative action is designed to control for those variables -- like race, socioeconomic status, and upbringing -- that are outside the applicant's control, thus making the application process more meritocratic. </p>
<p>Yes, the methods of affirmative action are imperfect, but that's not a reason to abolish the system and do an injustice to those applicants who have had the cards systematically stacked against them, so to speak. And yes, many people hold false notions about what affirmative action is designed to achieve and how it achieves it, but that just means they ought to devote more time to studying the telos of it.</p>
<p>And to those who say that race, in and of itself, is not an extenuating circumstance these days, I would beg to differ. We haven't attained a "post-racial" society just yet. I'm not even sure that's what we should be aiming for.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Dbate, although I'm not against affirmative action, I can see where you're coming from. I have similar stats to yours, yet I've had even a teacher imply that the only reason I was accepted to three ivy league schools was to help fulfill some sort of quota. "
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I guess I am lucky in that regard none of my teachers have suggested that I was unqualified, in fact they were the ones who said I was the most qualified. Moreso than I even believed myself.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Affirmative action affirms the dignity of the applicant by acknowledging that had he been raised in a different environment, with access to more resources, his "stats" would likely be on par with, or even surpass, those of wealthier, lighter-skinned applicants. Affirmative action is designed to control for those variables -- like race, socioeconomic status, and upbringing -- that are outside the applicant's control, thus making the application process more meritocratic. "
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My issue is what if the applicant already has stats that are on par are even above those of other applicants. Then it does deprecate thier accomplishments.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Yes, the methods of affirmative action are imperfect, but that's not a reason to abolish the system and do an injustice to those applicants who have had the cards systematically stacked against them, so to speak. And yes, many people hold false notions about what affirmative action is designed to achieve and how it achieves it, but that just means they ought to devote more time to studying the telos of it."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know some people have had a rough life and I have been blessed not to experience that so for those I would definitely 100% support affirmative action. But for me in particular although i have been discriminated against because of race I personally don't want to use that as basis for admission. I worked really hard, spent summers teaching myself quantum mechanics, debating, playing football and band. I get up for school at 6 am and get home at 6 pm for two years straight (and have the bags under my eyes to show it) it just feels really bad when people look straight through that and just say "oh he's black".</p>
<p>You can be both fully qualified and get in because you're a minority. I don't think that denigrates your accomplishments in any way. There are thousands of applicants who are for all intents and purposes equally qualified. Obviously colleges need to find some way to break ties.</p>
<p>^^True. </p>
<p>(10 char)</p>
<p>Dbate, I see where you are coming from. As an African-American, I get that type of "you got in because you are black" around here as well, more so from random students that do not know me as well and even some that do. I'll admit, my standardized scores are not the best. I have never been strong at them, that's that. As well, I do not get a lot of the research and other opportunities that other applicants may have. But, I make the most of what I have. What a lot of people fail to see is that the person that comes off the application is who the college thinks will contribute the most to their society. There are many to choose from, but the college has to make its best shot to bring in a diverse class. No matter what, people will be unsatisfied, and there is nothing that one can do about it. AA or not, the opportunities that we get are own and we must use it to our benefit, whether people say we "deserved" it or not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My issue is what if the applicant already has stats that are on par are even above those of other applicants. Then it does deprecate thier accomplishments.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, it doesn't. Even for black applicants who have perfect test scores and grades, affirmative action recognizes that systemic racism forced them to work extra hard to get there. If you don't believe that's true in your case, then you are lucky. The fact that some African Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics experience less racism than others does not undermine the case for affirmative action as an instrument of meritocracy.</p>
<p>I also feel sorry for minorities that are discriminated against because they get into top schools. It belittles their accomplishments.</p>
<p>What do you guys think about this case here:</p>
<p>My high school class is about 120 students. Top 10 kids are really competitive, really smart. However, only 1 kid got into an Ivy. In fact, he got into 4 of them. #5 in our class got into Harvard, Yale, Columbia, UPenn, and was waitlisted at Princeton. He also got into Stanford, UCLA, and Cal. Out of the top 10 kids in the class, he was the only one who was accepted to Stanford, and no one else even sniffed the waitlist. #5 is half black, half mexican.</p>
<p>His standardized tests scores are a tad higher than everyone else's, 2310 compared to a bunch of 2200s scores, but nothing else really makes him THAT much qualified. In fact, our valedictorian, along with his 2200? (around there I forget), captained our basketball team deep into the playoffs and is one of the star runners on our track team. Yet he's white, and he didn't get into any of the top privates he applied to (couple Ivies, Duke, Stanford). Granted he's going to be just fine at UCLA next year, but people at my school see this as a "oh he got in because he's a super minority" issue.</p>
<p>While I believe that #5 is a qualified applicant, I don't think he's a "go to wherever he could possibly want" applicant (besides Princeton). Being that it's pretty obvious a lot of the top schools are a crapshoot, a lot of people find it suspicious that he got into every single one of them besides one, while every other qualified applicant in the top 10 (all the others are white) got left in the dark.</p>
<p>Any opinions? Thoughts?</p>
<p>I understand how annoying it can be when people under appreciate an elite college acceptance because of your race; however there is no denying the fact that race plays a major factor in college admissions. Several (of course not all!) URMs who currently attend HYP probably would not have been accepted if they were not URM.</p>
<p>That said, I can understand why someone (like myself) would question your qualifications on the basis of a few stats, (SAT/ Rank); however, once I opened up your stats profile, I was amazed. There is no question in my mind, regardless of race, you could get into HYP. Actions speak louder than words. Numerous speech results and a clear passion speaks louder than a couple numbers; however, how is someone supposed to assume all this without knowing. Of course, he/she should not make the claim with such confidence (e. "you made it b/c you are black"), but it is reasonable for them to be inherently suspicious of a (relatively) low class rank URM acceptance.</p>
<p>The only way I can relate to your situation is when I go flying. I literally always get chosen for additional "random" screening. I am Lebanese by the way. It ****es me off, but I can not argue against the fact that Lebanese terrorists exist. If they knew me personally {knew your stats personally} they would not examine me.</p>
<p>I also commend the fact that you oppose something which most URMs support. Regardless of whether AA is right or wrong, it takes a truly just mind to oppose something which benefits yourself. In addition, I love the fact that you want to earn a legitimate (hands down) acceptance. I am glad you were accepted at Yale and are happy with the outcome regardless of the H and P decisions. IMO, you deserve an acceptance at all three.</p>
<p>@Mustafah, how can you assume b/c someone is black that they went through obstacles. I would bet many of the URMs in HYP lived in a decent socioeconomic area to begin with. It seems as those who are already well-off reap the benefits intended for those who are not so well-off. Of course, there will be URMs who overcame obstacles to get the minimum stats in order to barely squeeze their way into top colleges, and at the same time, deserve that acceptance; however, there is no evidence to suggest that all/most/a decent amount of URM applicants fall into this category, correct me if I am wrong (I am just speculating). </p>
<p>Anyways, the mere check mark of of "African American" entitles an applicant to a major college hook. That applicant does not have to prove they went through obstacles or were brought up in a significantly different upbringing in order to qualify for this benefit.</p>
<p>And the "promote diversity" excuse is BS. I am a (relatively) qualified applicant who was rejected by 4 top 20 schools, only gaining an acceptance at my safety. I have been in a war, live in a different country every summer, have been involved in Mid East Politics, and live in a significantly rare culture (one different than both that of the USA and of Lebanon's Arabic neighbors). Yet, (check mark- African American) is more diverse than myself. I am not saying I deserve an acceptance, but if they truly recognized diversity, things might have turned out differently.
In respect to the college campus, AAs make up about 10%. There are several minor minorities who represent less than 1% of the college campus but do not benefit from the "promote diversity" clause.</p>
<p>I agree with ThisCouldBeHeaven. Dbate, although you are a qualified candidate, so are 70% of the students applying to Yale. Your SAT and GPA are somewhat low, but your research and speech are great. Did being African American help you? It certainly did. Did your essay about being the only black student at science competitions exploit this? Heck yes. Don't pretend like affirmative action didn't help you because it did. As Claudius states eloquently (for a murderer) in Hamlet, "'Forgive me my foul murder'?/That cannot be, since I am still possessed/Of those effects for which I did the murder".</p>
<p>On the other hand... Were you sharing a part of your culture and who you are in that essay? I would assume this is true also. Students at your school are immature to degrade your accomplishments, but YOU'RE GOING TO YALE! Just do well and prove them wrong. You know you are going to succeed, and I'm sorry that others would doubt that. Congratulations and it is always interesting to discuss AA.</p>
<p>PS. Please do not take this the wrong way. You deserve to be at Yale. But you also definately got a bump from AA. I hope you contribute greatly to Yale's community because this is the reason every candidate at Yale is selected!</p>
<p>Dbate, honestly speaking, don't let some kid make you feel that your acceptance to Yale was a "fluke." It's obvious this person is jealous, so either completely ignore the envy or laugh it off (I'd choose the latter). College admissions at very selective colleges, at the end of the day, is all about the way you present your application. You stood out at Yale and there's nothing wrong with that. You can't help it that they liked your application and what you brought to the table. If affirmative action tipped the scale for you with Yale, that's great; yet, I'd also argue that maybe you didn't get in because of affirmative action. If affirmative action were clearly in your favor across the board, why weren't you accepted to Harvard and Princeton as well? But, at the same time, the admissions committees at Harvard, Yale and Princeton are different.</p>
<p>When I was applying to colleges back in the fall of 2004, many of my fellow classmates wanted to know where I was going to apply, mainly because I was one of those hardworking underrepresented minorities who presented "massive competition" for them. My dad is African-American and my mom is Latina (Paraguayan). I got into every school to which I applied: Cornell, Dartmouth, the University of Virginia, the University of Michigan, Bowdoin, Carleton, and many others. When April 1st, 2005 came, sure there were white students upset and embarrassed that they were rejected from Ivy League/"Ivy Caliber" schools. Some of them even tried to justify their rejections by saying that because I got into Dartmouth and Cornell, that "prevented them" from getting in to those schools. Because I'm from Washington, DC and because many of those students also applied to UVA and were rejected, I "took their spots." They did better than I did on the SAT, so I was "unworthy" of my acceptances. I tell you, it's funny that I applied to college nearly 5 years ago, but the ignorance still remains: the black kid got in "over me," the mixed kid (me) had a monopoly on the entire system (lol). I find myself laughing because they would never admit that I worked harder in school than they did; and thus, by "working" standards, I "deserved" a spot. Affirmative Action just happened to be the convenient excuse when they received thin envelopes, and I received countless fat packages. </p>
<p>As far as your acceptance to Yale, the school does not say that you have to have a certain grade point average, SAT score, or class rank to be admitted. Yale, to some people's dismay, is looking to build a well-rounded and diverse incoming class from which the institution could benefit. Besides race, which so many people love to fixate their thoughts, diversity includes age, geographic location, interests and hobbies, work experience, religion, ethnicity, cultural upbringing, socioeconomic status, gender, political opinion, etc. In addition, because there are so many applicants and few spots, the odds of being accepted at Yale for anyone is going to be small. The important goal is to stand out in the eyes of the admission committee, and that's what you did. Don't fault yourself simply because Yale loved the message you brought, and, sad to say, didn't really care for the image your classmate portrayed on paper.</p>
<p>When all is said and done, I'm glad your classmate wasn't accepted. I don't think that Yale would like the idea of an applicant downplaying the acceptance of another's based on his ignorance of their admissions decisions.</p>
<p>By the way, where did he happen to get accepted? If he got into a good school, then there's definitely no point in pitying him. I pity the school that took a chance on him.</p>
<p>Look, why is it such a big deal to get accepted at Yale? Because people have a lot of faith in Yale's judgment about which applicants have the most extraordinary potential to make Yale proud in the future. (Never get confused about this -- admissions is not about being good to students of any color. It's about what's good for the school.)</p>
<p>If you DON'T have that faith in Yale's judgment about what's good for Yale, then that should lower your opinion of the accomplishment of getting into Yale across the board. It's the exact same people admitting the white kids and the black kids. But if you think they know what they're doing when they admit white kids, maybe you should trust that they know what they're doing when it comes to black kids, too. They've been doing this for a long time. They've watched a lot of classes come and go. Isn't it possible they know more about this than the students?</p>
<p>IT'S ALSO FOR SOME DIVERSITY PEOPLE, NOT JUST AFRICAN AMERICANS, DON'T WANT 34434 CLONES...sorry caps...just throwing that out there for the haters...</p>
<p>Dbate no matter what your Stat is, people are still going to see AA. Learn how to deal with it.
My neighbor, who is African- American graduated from one of the Ivies. She told me, when her son (who is a straight A student at a rigorous independent school ), got into her alma mater ED, a white parent who was her friend stopped talking to her. The parent was mad because her S got deferred at the same college.
She fell that neighbor's S got in because of AA. Regardless of the fact that he was a legacy, had better Stat than her S and his mom works at the college.</p>
<p>I think school guidance counselors should also write whether or not the applicant is disadvantaged in any way; whether they're poor, live in a bad area, etc. (and if racism has affected them, they can write that too). That takes every situation into account.</p>
<p>Now why couldn't the big shots in charge of admissions have thought that one up?</p>
<p>OP:</p>
<p>You need to have more confidence in your ability and achievements. Getting rid of affirmative action is not the solution for you. You just need to not be so insecure.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Affirmative action affirms the dignity of the applicant
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, and it disregards the dignity of other applicants and the fundamental notion of equality shared among all human beings.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You just need to not be so insecure.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You don't know anything about being black in America, and neither do I. He's going to keep feeling insecure, a need to justify himself and his accomplishments, because people around him are just going to keep judging him based on the color of his skin.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"By the way, where did he happen to get accepted? If he got into a good school, then there's definitely no point in pitying him. I pity the school that took a chance on him."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't actually think that anyone else at my school applied, I think the person made it up. Usually people at my school just apply to UT, and it is not the top people who are saying these things but rather people who are not in the top ten percent. The people who actually said the did not even apply to Ivies. So it was never an issue of competition.</p>
<p>Newjack, you missed the boat. Dbate seems perfectly confident that his abilities and accomplishments merited admission.</p>
<p>To Dbate, if it bothers you that others may underestimate your accomplishments, you can always list them on your resume'. I wouldn't do a whole laundry list, but definitely the title of the research paper you published sounds impressive.
Like, for example, under education listing your high school, you could list unweighted GPA, ACT score, your published paper (with maybe the most impressive award for it), and the most impressive debate award. </p>
<p>Or perhaps just the unweighted GPA, ACT, and the published paper.</p>
<p>If you disagree with the policy in question here and think it is harmful, then you can always make your voice heard as a Yale student and alum. That's all you can do.</p>