Affirmative Action

<p>"If whites and asians really hate AA that much, they should organize a gigantic march on Washington instead of sitting around hating the hardworking 3.5 GPA minority student working two jobs, living in an apartment, and getting over his recently deceased dad who never supported him or her in any way, shape, or form."</p>

<p>It's racist of you to stereotype that minority students have those kind of hardships while others don't.</p>

<p>Also, by your post, it looks to me like you're suggesting a need-based system, not a racist system for affirmative action.</p>

<p>Fabrizio, Thomas J. Sowell is a conservative who is against AA so what is your point? Do you think by using a black that is against AA you're proving something? This country's composition of citizens and history is entirely different than any conglomeration of land mass in the world. And once again I want to reiterate the fact that most non- urms are not negatively impacted by AA. You will never ever hear of a white kid with a 4.0 and 1600 SAT having to go to JUCO because of AA. Also, most kids admitted through AA at the top academic institutions of America may lack the standardized test scores, but make up the difference in GPA and extracurriculars which are things that most statistics don't show and have graduation rates that rival or exceed those of their white counterparts..</p>

<p>First to project, I don't have a problem with poor whites getting help either, but the entire premise with which most of you anti AAers base your argument is AA is racist and admitting people based on economic standing is o.k., yet the only difference is that under that system whites would be admitted too. And to T.J., I was attacking the ignorant posters who say AA is unnecesary b/c racism and bigotry will play themselves out or are no longer an issue in this country and since our K-12 education system will not be improved overnight and no politician seems willing to propose changing it, AA is still necessary. Once again, not to disrespect any race, most whites are only looking at AA and life as a minority from the outside and/ or what they hear political know it alls say on t.v.</p>

<p>Colleges are looking to build a class based on a variety of people and experiences. SAT scores are not used as the number one yard stick in the admissions process, actually it is your high school grades taken in context in what has been offered at your h.s. Each school provides a profile so that those grades are looked at also in context of your high school as a whole. The student from a poor inner city h.s. is not going to have the same experience as the person living in the wealth suburbs or the person attending Andover , Exter or some othe $20,000+ per year prep school.</p>

<p>Since many of the schools which are at the crux of of the AA argument are private institutions, they have the right to fill a class as they see fit. Many of these students who you think are inferior are actually holding their own and are graduating at rates similar to their counter parts.</p>

<p>Amherst even ask people about diversity on one of their supplemental essay (But I think many people neglect to answer this question)</p>

<p>*** But I dare you to post an answer to their question ***</p>

<p>“For me, ‘diversity’ is not a political slogan or a theoretical goal; it is an absolute necessity. … It is impossible for students from any particular background to engage fully the racial and ethnic dimensions of American culture in a setting that does not approximate the racial composition of the society as a whole.”</p>

<p>From an essay published February 26, 2003, in the Chicago Sun-Times by Frederick E. Hoxie, Amherst Class of 1969, Amherst trustee, Swalund Professor of History, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign</p>

<p>I am wondering why is it that Asians who were the biggest benefactors of AA when they went flocking to UC Berkley/ UCLA and the free education at the UC's now decry the same system that helped them get to where they are today.</p>

<p>When AA is eliminated, how much longer do you think it will be before schools elect not to admit international students, women in make dominated institutions, people of certain religions, and people who are not filthy rich and connected and going back to insitutions full of rich white males (because those were some of the very same colleges that now see that diversity makes for a better educational experience)?</p>

<p>miguel-I will strongly disagree with your argument that most people who argue against AA are people who do not suffer from racism. I will start by first admitting that I am asian, and my parents and I, more so my parents, have had to face much racism in this country. Now, arguments have been made that blacks do not receive equal socioeconomic and education opportunities with whites because schools were only integrated 40 years ago; education only began two generations ago. True, this is a disadvantage. Now, my parents were the first to receive a college education in their families. We came from mainland China, which, during the late 20th century, was oppressed by the communist regime. I would say that receiving a proper education during that time for an average chinese student would be just as difficult as for blacks during that time period. However, they worked hard, made MANY sacrifices to get me to America and hope that I will have better opportunities than them. They have been turned down from jobs because they are asian, just as many URMs are denied opportunies because of their race My relative success right now is the product of my hard work, and more importantly, my parents' sacrifices. </p>

<p>I can confidently say that this story would be shared by many asian students. How can you say that asians suffered less than the URMs? Yes, there are rich asians; there are also rich URMs. All of them became rich because they worked hard and overcame obstacles, which are common for both groups. I cannot sit here and listen to people assume that URMs are the only groups who face racism and receive less opportunites. Yes, racism does exist and will continue to exist if we dont do something about it. However, using AA based on race will propogate racism even more, because its principle is based on race alone, not the opportunities one has. If schools want to give preference to applicants who are underpriviledged now and demonstrate true potential, fine. But I strongly disagree with the arguments made based on how blacks suffered racism before and it affects the descendents now. Although I am asian, I am trying to speak from an objective standpoint. It is fact that asians suffered just as much racism as blacks in the United States. It is also fact, that the general population of asians have advanced quicker in the socioeconomic ladder than the general population of blacks (i know there are exceptions, these are merely generalizations). Why? Because the individuals who advanced did because of hard work; this applies to ALL, including blacks and hispanics who have advanced as well. </p>

<p>I attend a school where the URM population is relatively high. Most are on the same socioeconomic status as I am; yet, most do not utilize the opportunities given to them. Yes, some may argue that it is because their parents do not give them the proper guidance. That is a tragedy, and in my opinion, something should be done to change that (improving the quality of public schools would be a very good idea, especially in inner city areas). However, I would have to say that most of the URMs who apply to high ranked schools probably have received proper guidance from their parents. Therefore, how would the URMs differ from the asians and other "overrepresented" minorities in this case? I think that they are in very similar positions, and therefore should receive equal treatment.</p>

<p>I understand that this issue is very belabored; I personally will not blame AA if I get rejected from a school. If private schools want to increase diversity on their campus, its their choice to make. HOwever, I am writing in response to the people who support AA for the reasons I have mentioned above. I think that you should heed your own advice of looking at the situation from the other side's point of view because you are not the only ones affected by racism.</p>

<p>In response to a certain poster who said "don't whites make up a majority of the population?" No.1, america is approx. 12.7% african american, with hispanics making up an even larger percentage. The nations top universities are applauded if they reach even the 7% mark for TOTAL minorities. If you want an equal representation in colleges as you so claim, check your statistics. AA should be even more to give an equal balance, not less. I'm sure you'll be switching your argument now.</p>

<p>And for people who say that AA privileges tons of rich black kids. Only 1870 African Americans scored above a 1350 last year, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of whites and asians with similar scores. Stretching these few blacks-that you deem worthy by your arrogant measuring stick the SAT-among the nation's top universities is an idiotic idea. And this trend did not just 'happen' to come into existence, there is a reason why blacks perform so dramatically lower than their counterparts. And until you find a whole delegation of politicians willing to restructure an entire system to fix the problem, don't tell me to forget AA because that's the only thing that makes things vaguely equal.</p>

<p>For the record I am an African American female with a 1430 SAT, 33 ACT. I was both a National Merit Finalist and National Achievement Finalist. I had over 2000 hours of community service and had won two state and one national award for my service. I had extensive research experience. Believe me, I was an average applicant with a decent chance for all the schools I applied to even without my URM status. Instead of logical and calm evaluation of my chances, I was immediately attacked for my race , only NorthStarMom gave me any respect. I was subsequently rejected from MIT and Caltech, contridicting the malevolent spite I received from cookie-cutter white and asian applicants. Even at the university I attend I still am accused of being the 'underqualified' black who bummed in on AA by people who don't even know me. In fact, I proved a group of arrogant whites in my engineering department wrong by showing that I indeed had BETTER scores than they did and was also much more well-rounded. I am disgusted by people who demand why I support AA as I will be labeled by it wherever I go. I did not choose the label, YOU DID.</p>

<p>Finally (sorry for the extreme length), if you are so absorbed in the 1600 you paid $5000 dollars with professional tutoring that you can't understand that some people don't have the resources you do, you're just foolish. And if you don't find it even the least bit interesting that in college you may meet a Native American/Hispanic/Black/Woman you would not have meet if it weren't for AA, thank god I don't attend university with you.</p>

<p>Red Dragon, I used to tutor in this predominately black district for children who want to attend college but do not have the resources to guide them on that path. When we first instituted the SAT/ACT Test Prep, it wasn't uncommon for these students, as bright as they were, to get 13-14-15s on their ACT. After the third ACT test, their scores shot over 18 into the low 20s, which would qualify them for some scholarship money. As long as these kids have exposure to the test, (many of them do not when they take their first real ACT/SAT) they will make a decent range. This was when I realize how services like Kaplan are elitist because they charge at least $1000 for their test prep program, while my tutoring program was only $50. Yet these kids despite their circumstances still improved on their scores. As long as we don't address class and educational inequality, affirmative action will still be needed.</p>

<p>There have been a lot of posts have been made about underqualified minorities taking the spot of a qualified majority (whites, asian, whatever). Okay let's be real about this. Where are you getting the information from? You can't make generalizations about AA when you don't know enough data to do so. Just because one black kid with a 1300 SAT and 3.3 was accepted over you a white kid with a 1600 and 4.0 DOES NOT mean that this is a wide spread epidemic. First these occurence are rare. And second SATs and GPA aren't the sole deciders in admissions. So please stop complaining about AA being unfair.</p>

<p>Red Dragon, I applaud your achievements and I have the utmost respect for you for your accomplishments. However, I must disagree with what you say. Now, first of all, it seems that you are not one of the underpriviledged URMs...I apologize profusely if I am wrong. Anyways, if in the case that you are not, why do you need AA? You are certainly qualified for many top tier schools, so why does AA need to be used? Also..</p>

<p>"If you want an equal representation in colleges as you so claim, check your statistics. AA should be even more to give an equal balance, not less. I'm sure you'll be switching your argument now."</p>

<p>Admission to college is a result of your intelligence, hardwork, dedication, and character. It should have NOTHING to do with how many other people in your ethnic group are accepted. Now, if colleges want to increase diversity on their campuses, that is another issue. But if you use that as a reason for justification of AA, I think that reasoning is seriously flawed. Yes, there is a small percentage of blacks who score high on the SAT. THat could be of a variety of factors; maybe they were poor and didnt have access to sufficient SAT prep, or that wasn't their main focus and they pursued passions in other areas. Those are all fine reasons, and I'm sure, that without AA, they would be accepted to top colleges anyway, just as how many non-URM's are accepted with low SAT scores. However, maybe you haven't considered that many are just plain lazy to prepare for the SAT. I don't care what you say, laziness is very common in teenages and occurs in all ethinicities. I seriously doubt that the rest of the population who scored lower on the SAT did so because they were underpriviledged. Therefore, why should the blacks who did score high be given special preference? Yes, it is an accomplishment, but they have done the same thing as the other students who scored over 1350. If they pursued other passions and suffered other hardships, those factors will be considered seperately. In retrospect, my point is that your race has very little to do with your achievements if you are just as priviledged as others. I do not think that all 1870 blacks who scored over 1350 had less opportunities than whites and asians. </p>

<p>I do not agree with the people who view URMs who are accepted to top colleges as "not adequate"; I think that is immature and plainly wrong. However, it is the general attitude of AA that I am opposed to.</p>

<p>To those that are so quick to talk about AA in terms of blacks and as to who is qualified and unqualified: </p>

<p>According to the 2003 Graduation rates for Div I schools @
<a href="http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2003/d1/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2003/d1/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>School African American Students
Harvard 138
Yale 90
Princeton 81
Columbia 101
Penn 114
Brown 97
Dartmouth 56
Cornell 100 </p>

<p>Total number of African American Freshmen in Ivy League schools in 2003is 765=
Howard University freshman enrollment of 855 African American students during that time period was more than the entire Ivy League combined. So blacks are really not beating hte door down to come to these schools.</p>

<p>Dartmouth College- Common data set 2004 (class of 2008)</p>

<p>Total number of African Americans Freshman class 79</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/cds_200405_02.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/cds_200405_02.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton University
Total number of African Americans Freshman class of 2008 86</p>

<p><a href="http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Cornell university- common data set</p>

<p>Total number of African Americans Freshman class of 2008 151
<a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Brown </p>

<p>Total number of African Americans Freshman class of 2008 372</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Institutional_Research/annrep/2004%20PDF/TABLE3.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Institutional_Research/annrep/2004%20PDF/TABLE3.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard
Total number of African American undergrads 496</p>

<p><a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/enroll_ethnicity_7.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/enroll_ethnicity_7.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yale
Total number of African Americans Freshman class of 2008 91</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds_2003-04.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds_2003-04.pdf&lt;/a>
Penn</p>

<p>Columbia</p>

<p>Did not make theirs available</p>

<p>*Harvard University, Brown University, The University Of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University, The University Of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, And Yale University filed their brief with the U.S. Supreme Vourt in favor of Affirmative Action because they realize that we are not there yet and the playing field is not level in the admissions process. *</p>

<p>They closed their brief by saying:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/br...-17-harvard.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/br...-17-harvard.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>We are not so far removed from the days when segregation by race in education, and race discrimination in all sorts of vital opportunities relevant to educational performance, were for many a matter of law.</p>

<p>The major points for affirmative action in their breifs are as follows:</p>

<p>These schools collectively stated</p>

<p>Academically selective universities have a compelling interest in ensuring that their student bodies incorporate the experiences and talents of the wide spectrum of racial and ethnic groups that make up our society. Amici should be free to compose a class that brings together many different kinds of students; that includes robust representation of students from different races and ethnicities; and that prepares graduates to work successfully in a diverse nation. Indeed, highly selective universities have long defined as one of their central missions the training of the nation’s business, government, academic, and professional leaders. By creating a broadly diverse class, amici’s admissions policies help to assure that their graduates are well prepared to succeed in an increasingly complex and multi-racial society.</p>

<p>The colleges presented the following arguments</p>

<p>I- Consideration Of Race And Ethnicity In An Individualized Admissions Process Serves Compelling Interests.</p>

<p>A. There Is a Broad Consensus On The Important Educational Benefits of Diversity.</p>

<p>Diversity helps students confront perspectives other than their own and thus to think more rigorously and imaginatively; it helps students learn to relate better to people from different backgrounds; it helps students become better citizens. The educational benefits of student diversity include the discovery that there is a broad range of viewpoint and experience within any given minority community – as well as learning that certain imagined differences at times turn out to be only skin deep. It is surely fitting for universities to undertake to prepare their students to live and work in a global economy within a multiracial world. The challenges of contemporary life demand that students acquire not just traditional forms of knowledge regarding science and the arts, but also techniques of bridging differences in perspective and in personal experience.</p>

<p>B. Consideration of Race and Ethnicity Grows Naturally Out Of The Needs Of The Professions and Of American Business.</p>

<p>Every major profession in this country has sought greater diversity within its ranks.4 Businesses have demanded more minority managers and executives, as well as non-minorities who can work well with colleagues from diverse backgrounds.</p>

<p>Leading corporations, business groups, professional organizations, and executives have repeatedly called for consideration of race and ethnicity in university admissions.5 In adopting their admissions policies, universities are responding to “the clearly articulated needs of business and the professions for a healthier mix of well-educated leaders and practitioners from varied racial and ethnic backgrounds.</p>

<p>The Interest In Racial Diversity Cannot Be Served By Race-Neutral Reliance On Factors, Such As Economic Disadvantage, That Are Already Carefully Considered.</p>

<p>The United States urges (as one solution) that universities look to such factors as special economic hardship instead of race. See U.S. Grutter Br. 24-25. But the decisive fact is that all of the suggested race-neutral factors, and many more besides, already enter into admissions decisions. Consideration of those factors alone does not achieve the distinctly racial diversity that amici seek in their student bodies. To accomplish that goal, admissions committees must give favorable consideration to minority race in addition to those other factors, not instead of them.</p>

<p>By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward “hardship” students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the losses that would result from race-blind admissions – would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own.</p>

<p>A race-neutral preference for economically disadvantaged students, for example, would admit many more whites than non-whites, because of sheer demographic realities.14 And, of course, the university interest in admitting minority students goes well beyond just admitting minority students from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>

<p>Race-Conscious Admissions Programs Are Not Open- Ended Commitments.</p>

<p>The decision of a university as to which minority groups deserve favorable consideration in an individualized admissions process designed to foster such diverse representation, and the weight of such consideration, are necessarily and appropriately decisions to be made as a matter of educational judgment, taking into account both the university’s sense of its mission and its best estimate of the leadership needs it will address – not as a matter of conflicting “rights.”</p>

<p>ronlivs, I am indeed an 'underpriviliged' minority. My family makes less than $5000 dollars a year. I was, however, so blessed to have a strong-willed mother who came to learn the hard way that education is vital. She still remembers segregation and how she had to serve in the army in order to even afford higher education.</p>

<p>And laziness is not an adequate explanation to the massive disparity in performance between minorities and the majority. Yes, there will the those who believe their way to success is through sports and not through academics. But even in those cases, look at the system that has molded them this way, not the children themselves. For years the only way a black could make his way into a decent college was through his/her athletic ability. And athletes extravagance once they find themselves in the big money enhances these kid's wants to be a huge athletic star. No one walks around in a ghetto talking about Shirley Ann Jackson's achievements, no, they speak of Miachael Jordon and Venus Williams. Many underprivileged kids are simply not exposed to the achievements that can be made in fields that require more brainpower than brawn. It's a sad situation that needs major fixing. This is something that no politician is willing to touch because of people will blow up in their faces for daring to suggest maybe putting more money into poor districts which just 'happen' to be 65% minority.</p>

<p>As tenisghs said, these kids have equal potential, but no one is willing to put in the time to help them because they write them off as you just did, as 'lazy' or 'unwilling' when it's just that no one has shown them there's a better and just as achieveable way to succeed. I went to a free boarding school that had a tremendous emphasis on standardized test scores. I in no way would have been able to afford tenisghs $50 dollar test prep. You may think this paltry for a child's education, but when people are thinking about how they're going to get the next meal on the table, college seems like a luxury when a good-paying job at McDonald's or Radioshack is open.</p>

<p>And sure, maybe some of those 1870 blacks weren't dirt poor. So what? A high achieving African American/Hispanic is just ridiculously hard to find ronlivs. It's like a diamond among graphite. Yea, maybe some of them are synthetically made under superb conditions and a few maybe from tripping over them in the muck. They're still hard to find, making them valuable. And please do not blame those poor souls for unfortunately having parents who were lucky and driven enough to overcome the enormous obstacles facing them.</p>

<p>Ronlivs, who gives a f--- what the general attitude is? Why should you listen to such ignorance and stereotypes? What would happen if every black person trying to apply to college listened to rumors and lies that they aren't capable of achieving or they should apply to a more easier school to avoid isolation and other nonsense? Those people are cowards who only want to further their own self-interests. They don't mind condescending others to get higher on the social ladder even if it's unjust and wrong. As one girl posted above, African-Americans on predominately white institutions are STILL TOO LOW.</p>

<p>Look, I am not blaming "those poor souls for unfortunately having parents who were lucky and driven enough to overcome the enormous obstacles facing them." That is the exact OPPOSITE of what I'm trying to do. I have no idea where you got that from. I am one of those "poor souls", if you will. My point is, EVERYONE, regardless of their race, could be put into a position where it is difficult for them to succeed. As I had told you before, my family is one of them. Just like your mom, my parents were also strong willed people who learned "the hard way" that education is important. I am lucky that I grew up in such a fostering environment, and I treasure that gift. Again, I will restate my point. Underprivileged is not the same thing as URM. By emphasizing that the underprivileged population is black, you are ignoring all of the other races that are also underprivileged. I am NOT "writing them off", becuase as I said before, something needs to be done. But that something needs to be done for ALL underpriviledged children, not just black underprivileged children because by giving preference based on RACE, that is essentially what you are doing. </p>

<p>Red Dragone, I agree with you that the role models should be changed. It is unfortunate that many underpriviledged kids respect rappers and athletes more than intellectuals. Like I said before, changes need to be made to the public school system so that it emphasizes these things more; I think that is very important. Kids do need to have their intellect tapped. However, I do not think that AA is a good way to do this. Lets face it, AA is not going to benefit an inner city teen who did not study or work at all because he/she had poor role models. AA will benefit the motivated URM over the motivated non URM under identical conditions, theoretically. The motivated URM probably could have gotten accepted without AA. I hope you see my point.</p>

<p>*Lets face it, AA is not going to benefit an inner city teen who did not study or work at all because he/she had poor role models. *</p>

<p>You also won't have to worry about that person being admitted to a selective college either</p>

<p>I don't. Like I said before, I'm not going to blame AA for not being accepted to a college. I am arguing because I am against the attitude of individuals like red_dragone who put black underprivileged kids before the rest.</p>

<p>So, Ronlivs, what are you saying? That we should base everything on extenuating circumstances and socioeconomic status? I'm an URM, technically not a poor one, but nevertheless, I come from lots of hardships that relates to history of racism. Using a financial cut-off does not help people like me when we are trying to get an education.</p>

<p>If we based everything on income, I and majority of my black friends would have not gotten in despite our course work and AP credits. That's basically the majority of your black incoming freshmen class at SELECTIVE colleges. Our families don't make less than $40,000 but at the same time many of us come from single-parent homes where ONE PARENT is responsible for all the bills and activities. That ONE PARENT might be responsible for issues related to the EXTENDED family, or there are forces they have no control whatsoever that 'kill us financially' (loan and insurance redlining by neighborhoods of color leading up to higher premiums than whites in suburbs for example). Most Asian and white students are less likely to share that burden. As I stated earlier, middle-class black families do not share equal wealth as middle-class whites (think historically the FHA, restrictive racial covenants, deindustrialization, creation of the urban ghetto, etc.). The G.I. Bill allowed returning WWII white veterans to move out into the suburbs and attend college to receive a degree with federal assistance. African-Americans were excluded from all of this in the name of American racism. While whites were able to build wealth with the assitance of the G.I. Bill and other federal perks, blacks either in rural or urban areas languished in old neighborhoods that increasingly segregated and isolated blacks from society. If you look at the social movements in the 1960s, African-Americans were FED UP over their second-class citizenship in a society that did not care for them. This is when colleges began to open their doors to African-Americans by the late 1960s.</p>

<p>Bottom line: I'm considered a middle-class URM, yet I'm only a 2nd-generation college student. Many blacks in college, as tiny as we are population-wise, today are only 1st-2nd-3rd generation college students. Using a financial cut-off will be detrimental to those blacks, while not among the poorest, are just first in their families to achieve higher education with the proper guidance and support. Remember, our parents were once first-generation college students too.</p>

<p>ronlivs, I meant that it was unfortunate that kids are not aware that there are intellectual role models. There's nothing wrong for a kid wanting to be the next M.J., but it is if he doesn't know what else is out there. </p>

<p>AA is to help the motivated URM. I think you're misunderstanding my argument. A lazy person is lazy. AA is to help that person who tried to the best of their ability but didn't achieve to the more privilieged students numbers. It doesn't matter how motivated a URM is if he has a 1100 SAT and he's no. 1 at an easy school. AA is to take into account this fact. And a poor nonminority does not face the same assumptions that minorities face. You yourself made the generalization a few posts earlier than many URMs are "just plain lazy". Are you saying the poor white person is not lazy as well? Being a minority is frustrating because wherever you go people will slap a label on you, which many high achieving blacks are sick of facing, hence a higher matriculation to HBCUs. </p>

<p>I agree with you that AA is actually a terrible solution. It was a cheap reparation for the years of discrimination against people who helped build this country. But it is all we have. I hope you help to change the education system to help all people and put then on equal footing, ronlivs, and I will be thrilled to forfeit AA. But until that happens, it will not be given up without a fight.</p>

<p>And I understand people's frustration who family's are immigrants. They like to say 'well, my parents weren't even HERE when that happened'. But think of it this way, without blacks and their knowhow about crops, cattle and their general mass labour, would America have been as appealing to immigrate to? Though you had no part in it, you benefit from the fruits of black labour to this day because America did grow and become successful and did throw of British control. You also profit from the Native American who's land was stolen and from the hispanic who still picks your fruit for ridiculously low wages. </p>

<p>Finally, when enough motiviated URMs gain more prominence, the lazy inner city kid you speak of WILL have better role models. Do you see my point? As a side note, I'm glad this AA discussion has not degenerated into the angry spite that usually occurs. I would advise such people who corrupt such threads as 'black ivy league applicants' and not 'indians represent!' to read this and learn some maturity</p>

<p>Red Dragone, I do see your point, and that is why I have kept my arguments as objective as possible. My point is that many minorities, other than URMs, face the same problems. I am asian, and I have a label slapped on me too. Because I'm asian, many people see me as a high strung "grade grubber" who only cares about high grades and SAT scores. Many also assume that I have a very privileged background, and I do many things becuase my parents forced me to. I have faced the repercussions of it and I can tell you, it is not a good thing at all. I think it is on the same level as having a label slapped on you saying that you're lazy. Poor, underprivileged nonminorities also face the same prejudice as their URM counterparts. Before, I did not say only URMs were lazy; right after that I said, "as in many teens." That is my point: if you're lazy, then you're lazy. If you are motivated, then good for you. It has nothing to do with race. Underprivileged people all face many of the same problems; that is why I think all of them should be looked at equally, regardless of race. True, blacks suffered much prejudice that hindered them from getting an education and improving their lives. But so has other nonblack underprivileged populations. Tenisghs-I do know that your parents were first generation college students, just like my parents were. That is exactly why I am saying that we are not that different. If your socioeconomic status is high enough so that you do have the opportunities and positive influences accessible to you, there is very little reason why you cannot accomplish what non URMs can accomplish. I am only a second generation college-bound student too, and I can confidently say that many other non-URM applicants are as well. My parents faced the same prejudice and hinderances like your parents, and have overcame them like yours did. Now, we are the next generation; I simply do not think it is right that you should be given preference simply because you are black. Btw, I hope you do not take this as an attack of some sort, because it isnt. I'm just trying to get my point across. I do want to say that I admire all of you, red_dragone and tenisghs for being such motivated and accomplished individuals despite your hardships. I am just trying to say that other, non black people are like you too.</p>

<p>Even if its not a poster's intention, every time the subect of AA comes up on this forum, someone ALWAYS manages to insult or hurt another... </p>

<p>As a URM I CAN understand many of the reactions, from both sides, and I try not to take them personally. But sometimes its hard not to; I don't know if you can understand that, but for a moment, try. What I see a lot of on here are personal interpretations of what AA "is" or "should be", but not a lot of understanding of what AA "means", or what its purpose is, with regards to college admissions.</p>

<p>Do some research! AA is NOT about a URM's financial status. The definition of Affirmative Action with regards to college admission is "Positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group, often to remedy the cumulative effect of subtle as well as gross expressions of **prejudice*. When numerical goals are set, they are set according to the group's representation in the applicant pool rather than the group's representation in the general population.''</p>

<p>Reference: <a href="http://onlineethics.org/glossary.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://onlineethics.org/glossary.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>*Prejudice: Bias for or against someone or something that fails to take true account of their characteristics.</p>

<p>Reference: <a href="http://onlineethics.org/glossary.html#PREJUDICE%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://onlineethics.org/glossary.html#PREJUDICE&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you think that "high middle class" African-Americans, or Hispanics, or Asians, suffer less discrimination, or prejudice, than their counter parts in inner cities, you are very mistaken. Unfortunately, regardless of economic standing, we are still judged by the color of our skin, the language that we speak, and the customs that we have/follow. </p>

<p>In the case of African-Americans and Hispanics, whether we have money or not, many (yes, not all, but many) people still equate our race/ethnenticity with inferior intelligence, potential, ambition, and capacity. In our day and age it may not be politically correct to voice it, but prejudice still exists. And we experience it, sometimes blatently - sometimes very subtly; whether we're living in the inner city, or out in the the suburbs, we all are touched by it sooner or later.</p>

<p>Is AA perfect? No way! I do think it is unfair to Asians, who ARE discriminated against in jobs, housing and other social settings just as much as African-Americans and Hispanics, but when it comes to college admissions they are seen as very intelligent and capable, and are denied the equality that AA stands for in principle.</p>

<p>I'm not totally convinced that AA is a benefit to me as a URM, not emotionally any way. It only confirms the stereotype that it is supposedly trying to break. Unfortunately, you will probably still see me only as the under qualified person who took someone else's spot because the college needed to make their quota. It may still be a long time before you see me as the person I really am. Its up to me to prove that I was worth the "risk". </p>

<p>So if the only chance I have is for AA to open the door for me, so I can show what I'm really capable of .. then I don't have much choice but to take it.</p>