<p>And I believe in due process and fairness by organizations and to a greater extent societies. I believe that entering a college or university is an implied contract, although that one is playing out currently in several courts and I don’t like to see laws passed that border on procedural unconscionability. I believe that rape and sexual assaults are crimes…not something to be ‘handled’ by organizations or institutions outside the law. It will be interesting to see what California does.</p>
<p>
Again, zoomom. Never said that anyone was accusing me of saying anything. :)</p>
<p>There was a long, long thread that had just passed in the Parents Forum. I don’t feel like explaining to you my stance on rape and sexual assaults, but feel free to look back on the thread if you’re really that curious. poetgrl put forth an undying determination in that thread. She has opened many people’s minds, including mine, in terms of prevention proposals, laws, and such. She’s hardly a sexist or anti-man.</p>
<p>
“Not all men…”</p>
<p>We’ll you know I think people who don’t respect the bodily integrity of half the population are anti man, regardless of what they tell themselves. And as a practical matter, how do you expect men to believe that only affirmative consent means yes while telling them that it doesn’t apply to them?</p>
<p>Some interesting data</p>
<p><a href=“National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) | Bureau of Justice Statistics”>Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics;
<p><a href=“http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf”>http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf</a></p>
<p>I actually don’t care what you think. I know far too much about this subject, and the deterioration of every single one of these threads in this direction is actually the thing I find sick. Once or twice, I took it verrry seriously.</p>
<p>At this point, every single solitary thread about rape on college campuses turns into a series of concerned posts about something you really won’t find happening at the expense of something faced by girls on college campuses, particularly at this time of year, at an alarming high rate.</p>
<p>So, if there are any young women or men out there reading this thread, or any parents of men or women, particularly young first years, </p>
<p>THE FIRST SEMESTER OF COLLEGE IS CONSIDERED THE RED ZONE. YOU WILL BE IN MORE DANGER OF SEXUAL ASSAULT THIS SEMESTER, UP TIL THANKSGIVING, THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME. DO NOT LEAVE YOUR FRIENDS BEHIND AT PARTIES. DO NOT PUT YOUR DRINKS DOWN. DO NOT ACCEPT DRINKS FROM PEOPLE YOU DON’T KNOW OR EVEN PEOPLE YOU DO KNOW AT PARTIES. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM. FIGHT BACK. GO TO THE POLICE, THE REAL POLICE, IMMEDIATELY IF YOU ARE ATTACKED, RAPED, ASSAULTED, OR DRUGGED. SAME FOR YOUNG MEN, IF YOU FIND YOURSELF ASSAULTED BY A MAN OR WOMAN. IF YOU SEE ANYTHING OR ANYONE SUSPICIOUS, GIRLS BEING LED AWAY AT PARTIES, PEOPLE PUTTING THINGS IN PEOPLE’S DRINKS, STEP IN. BYSTANDER INTERVENTION PREVENTS MORE RAPES ON CAMPUS THAN ANYTHING ELSE. REMEMBER MOST RAPES ARE COMMITTED BY SERIAL RAPISTS, AND THEY ARE PREDATORS AND THEY HAVE PATTERNS. YOU WILL FIND THEM ON SPORTS TEAMS AND IN FRATERNITIES AT PARTIES QUITE FREQUENTLY. ASK THE OLDER GIRLS. CERTAIN GROUPS ON ANY CAMPUS ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN OTHERS. DON’T DRINK TOO MUCH. DON’T ENGAGE IN SEX, IF YOU ARE A MAN OR A WOMAN, IF YOU ARE DRUNK. YOU RUN THE RISK OF ALL SORTS OF THINGS IF YOU DO THIS. IT’S LIKE DRIVING DRUNK. JUST DON’T DO IT.</p>
<p>carry on. </p>
<p>
I was told the same thing by my professor. It was within the first 15 minutes of our first class of the semester. He stressed this. </p>
<p>Poetgrl, those of us who have sons worry for their safety as well. I have daughters and I always worried for them and still do, as a survivor, myself, but men have the right to be safe and respected As well. I am frankly staggered and disgusted that that is even a question, I posted some very interesting data. Perhaps you could learn from it. Several things can be true at once . There are a significant number of male predators on college campuses. Women need to be safe from them. It is also true that men are entitled to the same standard of affirmative consent, and I wonder how you would deal in your work with victims if a male came in for help. I have never participated in one of these threads, but having read those statistics, I was absolutely stunned. Sexual abuse of males is a horrifying thing, as well, and it shouldn’t be hidden in the shadows and bystanders should help protect young women, too.</p>
<p>zoosermom, I have worked with male survivors of male rape.</p>
<p>I have a colleague who has worked with a young man who was horribly abused as a young man, by a predatory woman. All sex offenders have patterns. Unsurprisingly, she was a teacher. it took a lot of work to get to the point where he understood this was statutory rape and the reason he felt suicidal.</p>
<p>As I said the last three times this become the focus of a thread. Rape is rape. Men are raped. If a man does not consent to sex he has clearly been raped. As I also said, sexual response in a young man does NOT mean it was not rape. It clearly was.</p>
<p>I have said this repeatedly.</p>
<p>this time of year, my main concern, since the next few months will see most of the rapes on campus and most will be young freshman, is to make sure the young women know. Nothing is more dangerous than naivete.</p>
<p>You can’t assume that any individual poster is familiar with your personal posting history. As I said, I haven’t participated in one of this topic before. I read that data last week for the first time and wanted to Bring to others’ attention it’s existence. I am entitled to do so, and as a person beginning to look at colleges for my son, the concepts of affirmative consent and due process are quite a lot to think about. For me and other mothers similarly situated. My daughters are done with college, my son is in the on deck circle, so he is now my focus. And I still don’t think there is anything ridiculous or joe cool about sexual assault or the lack of due process for that matter.</p>
<p>you are of course entitled to post what you will, as are we all.</p>
<p>My main concern, this time of year, is making sure the largest number of young freshman out there are aware of this issue. Since I’m also involved in diseminating information to actual young women and men, I know how important it is this time of year.</p>
<p>I 100% agree Poetgirl. Here’s what I told my daughter last year, before she left for college:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>College is a time that many people choose to become sexually active. She is an adult now, and when to become sexually active is her choice. I am 100% available to talk if she wishes, as are her aunts and older cousins. </p></li>
<li><p>I hope that when she chooses to become sexually active it is in the context of a committed relationship. However, it is not an all-or-nothing decision. Some women decide to experiment before deciding to wait for a committed relationship, etc. Then I repeated the messages abt birth control and disease prevention that have been drilled into her head since early puberty.</p></li>
<li><p>Birth control pills effectively control cramps. If you would like my help in getting some pills, unless you tell me otherwise, I will assume they are for cramps, no questions asked. Or, if you want to discuss whether to have sex, I’m here for that too.</p></li>
<li><p>Boys may try to pressure you into sex before you are ready. Do NOT fall prey to pressure, no matter how much you like the boy. When to have sex is up to YOU. If a boy breaks up with you because you do not have sex, he is not worth dating.</p></li>
<li><p>Alcohol lowers your inhibitions and makes it very, very difficult to make responsible decisions about sex. I hope you abstain from underage drinking but should you choose to indulge I ask that you follow the following rules: (1) no hard alcohol or shots; (2) limit one 12 oz beer or 5 oz glass if wine per hour (with demonstrations as to how much that is), alternated with water or diet coke; (3) do not accept drink you didnt pour, no punch, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>People do make mistakes. If you make a mistake about sex or drinking, it is okay. Note the lessons learned and move on. I’m here to discuss, and there are many other resources.</p></li>
<li><p>You should be aware that there are predators out there. Most boys are NOT predators, but there are some who are out there. These men prey in naive young women and see inebriated women as easy targets. Just as you lock your car doors and your dorm room, you should take precautions against such predators. Most important precaution: limit alcohol consumption as outlined above and develop buddy system with women and trusted men in your dorm. You need to have their backs and they need to have yours.</p></li>
<li><p>If a boy /man makes a sexual or physical advance that is unwelcome, firmly and decisively say NO and leave the situation as quickly as possible.</p></li>
<li><p>If a man does not respect your NO – thus forcing unwanted sexual behavior on you – that is sexual assault which is a crime. I hope this will never happen to you. Chances are it won’t. However, if it does, it is important that the perpetrator be punished for his crime. This means you will have to be brave and report and preserve evidence etc. it is not your fault etc. Lots more abt this with specific examples from news, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>As a member of your university community, you have a moral obligation to look out for your fellow students. If you see someone getting into a dangerous situation – for example, getting so drunk that he/she is incapacitated, it is your moral obligation to attempt to help that person. Enlist others to help, including other girls/ women and trusted boys/men. Get RA involved if necessary. In true emergency, call 911.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Note that You may have an angry, puking friend on your hand but he/she should thank you in the morning. If he/she doesn’t, well, I am proud of you for doing what you KNOW is right. </p>
<ol>
<li>We downloaded Uber and did a practice run. It is an expensive option, but a good one to escape a questionable circumstance. Use black car service only. I will pay, no questions asked. (But it is NOT for regular old rides).<br></li>
</ol>
<p>There’s a lot more, but this is the message I drilled into my daughter’s head.</p>
<p>^^ Can my son ask your daughter for a date?</p>
<p>
I agree with this–and this, I think, is why all the discussions of two drunk people, victimization of men, etc., etc., etc. keep coming up: the measures that are being suggested are not aimed at stopping these predators, but are aimed at a different problem: the idea that men don’t know what consent is, and that making the lines of consent clearer will prevent sexual assaults. Obviously, if the overwhelming majority of rapes are being perpetrated by predators, these efforts will fail–these guys will simply learn how to claim that there was explicit consent. I think some folks are too dismissive of the idea that poorly crafted rules could result in punishment of people who haven’t really done anything wrong–that’s a big concern for me.</p>
<p>I think what makes me uneasy is my belief that in many sexual encounters in college, there is quasi-consent. That is, there are actions or even words that convey consent, but the person’s judgment is impaired because of alcohol. Unless the person has been unknowingly drugged, it is difficult for me to see this situation as one in which a crime has been committed–especially if both parties have been drinking more or less the same amount. On the other hand, I think a person who deliberately uses alcohol to break down inhibitions in this way in somebody who otherwise would not be interested is a predator, and is acting immorally. I think the way to stop him is bystander intervention.</p>
<p>The thing is that this particular thread is not about warning young women how to be safe, it’s another topic entirely, one which was intended to discuss the affirmative consent law, which by the nature of the fact that mostly men are accused, tends to skew to a male POV. Which is fine. As poetgrl pointed out, there have been plenty of threads talking about keeping women safe and there should be new ones often because it’s so important, but why does a thread that talks about something more specific to the experience of men have to be stomped out? Why can’t it stand as a separate thread and people who are tired of the other topic or who feel that warning women is so imperative that they do it often just open or revive those threads?</p>
<p>
So why not do that without mocking, ridiculing or marginalizing a totally different topic which might be of interest to other posters?I happen to think that making sure that young men understand what rights they can lose on a college campus is a very important topic to be disseminated to young men, as well. I think it is as important an issue as keeping women safe. You don’t have to agree, but I hold my concern as deeply as you hold yours.</p>
<p>I am now starting to feel out the college process for my son and I plan to ask questions and seek information specific to the male POV because I’ve done it twice with girls (safely and successfully, thanks to the grace of God) and I know that this experience will be different. It really is a shame that there is such an adversarial mentality regarding the two experiences, which I don’t think there should be. I am grateful beyond measure that my girls weren’t victimized and when they were going through the process, I focused on that exclusively because that’s what was going on in my life. I intend to focus exclusively now on making sure that my son is neither a victim nor a victimizer, so I will be appreciative of threads at this point in my life that talk about the male experience. I hope those threads can be let stand without attacks and that threads from the female POV can be left without attack, as well.</p>
<p>Even though you did not mean to, Post #112 explains why I wrote the below a couple posts back. There is really more than one issue here, but the issues are not clearly defined and thus will not be solved by current proposals, which sweep up everything.</p>
<p>@awcntdb wrote:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
I think that is exactly right and I think boys need to know that such a situation could be construed as rape on a college campus and involve major, major consequences in the absence of due process that would never have been possible within the criminal justice system. I think it is important for young men to know before they go to college exactly what their college’s policies are and understand what could happen in a situation where he thought he had consent but a dispute arose later.</p>
<p>Oh, my goodness. </p>
<p>@Zoosermom I have to say that my post you are reacting to had an attitude derived from other threads. My exasperation with a certain topic which creeps into these conversations every time.</p>
<p>I’m sorry if this is the case. I keep trying to stay away from these threads. I can no longer take some of the assertions seriously because they are being made by the same posters again and again, as if the overwhelming issue regarding rape on college campus pertains to victimization of men.</p>
<p>That said, I’m sure it came off as flippant if you hadn’t been around those threads. </p>
<p>I will depart. </p>
<p>Also, let me say that campus rapes are being perpetrated by an incredibly small percentage of men, and are really not a matter of mistaken signals. I recognize the horror that any man caught up in something like that might face: I abhor false accusation in any “crime,” but I seriously believe that until and unless we address the larger issue of campus rape, as it pertains to the survivors, we are negligent in keeping our college campuses safe.</p>
<p>There are lots of threads on this topic and I’ve posted all sorts of information, and I will leave it you all to discuss.</p>
<p>I think boys should be taught how to protect themselves, but I think it’s also very important to tell them that they have a moral obligation to protect others, and to teach them how to do that. I think the predators will only be restrained when they are surrounded by other men who take responsibility themselves for what goes on in their environment and who strongly feel that it’s not OK to act like a predator.</p>