<p>How will schools see my friend's son? He is a very affluent half black child attending an elite private school. He has great grades and 2230 SAT. He spent a semester abroad in Spain, is captain of a JV team and is an overall extremely bright, well rounded, highly respected student. Both parents attended "lower ivies." He is very well travelled and has had every advantage. Will HYPS be attracted?</p>
<p>Short answer: Yes, even without URM status.</p>
<p>Ain't no such thing as "half black", at least in the U.S. From 1630 to 1865, if you had one Black person in your ancestry, you were subject to slavery, if you were in the wrong place. But I suspect you already knew that.</p>
<p>LOL mini.</p>
<p>Miscegenation contemplation.</p>
<p>Actually, some miscegenation laws in Dixie were still in force right up to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Louisiana's law was particularly ridiculous.</p>
<p>There's a wonderful book by the former dean of the Ohio State Law School:</p>
<p>"Life on the Color Line: The True Story of a White Boy Who Discovered He Was Black"</p>
<p>He was white in Virginia, and Black in Indiana, and the impact it had on much of his family was devastating. A great read!</p>
<p>Yes, I know the book and the story. I saw a couple of fascinating television interviews of him. His retelling of his discovery that his dad's 'housekeeper" was actually his own grandmother evoked memories of James Weldon Johnson's 'Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man.'</p>
<p>By the way, it's clearly dated but try to see the old movie "Lost Boundaries" if you can.</p>
<p>"Actually, some miscegenation laws in Dixie were still in force right up to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Louisiana's law was particularly ridiculous."</p>
<p>Anti-miscegenation was still part of the Alabama Constitution until the year 2000, just no longer enforceable.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>He has great grades and 2230 SAT. He spent a semester abroad in Spain, is captain of a JV team and is an overall extremely bright, well rounded, highly respected student. Both parents attended "lower ivies." He is very well travelled and has had every advantage. Will HYPS be attracted?>></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I agree that this student sounds like a strong candidate for many schools. HYPS are not sure things for any applicant.</p>
<p>Know of many applicants with his stats that were rejected HYP. His hooks, I think, would be URM and able to pay full freight.</p>
<p>According to the College Board, only 1,877 black students (about 1.5 percent of blacks who take the tests) scored higher than 1300 out of a possible 1600 on the SAT in 2003. Out of the 2 million total examinees, fewer than 200 black examinees had combined scores of 1450. Only 72 scored higher than 1500. </p>
<p>Among the overall student population, 148,024 (about 10 percent of test takers) scored higher than 1300, and 13,897 earned scores higher than 1500. </p>
<p>"Most of these students don't realize that they are being fought over," said Joy St. John, an Amherst admissions officer who specializes in minority outreach, gazing over a room of 70 or so black, Hispanic, Asian and American Indian students whose SAT scores ranged from the low 1100s to above 1500. "They are modest, and they don't know the options that are out there." </p>
<p>The competition is particularly ferocious for blacks and Hispanics with SAT scores that put them on par with the most talented white students.</p>
<p>He would be an attractive candidate for top colleges even if he were white or Asian. Whether he'll get in, however, is anyone's guess because the competition still is fierce.</p>
<p>I assume he'll get in where he has legacy status. </p>
<p>His semester in Spain, scores and URM status all are plusses. The fact that he is well off is not a plus at those schools because they have a very hard time finding low income students, and it's easy for them to find well off students. His scores probably put him in the 99+ percentile for black students. According to the College Board,a 750 v or 750 m is at the 99+ percentile for black students. Black students scoring a 700 v or 700 m are at the 99th percentile of black students.</p>
<p>northstar--where can i get that sat info?</p>
<p>Here's the link to a pdf showing SAT scores by race, gender and ethnicity:
<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/about/news_info/cbsenior/yr2005/03_v&m_percentile_ranks_gender_ethnic_0506.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/about/news_info/cbsenior/yr2005/03_v&m_percentile_ranks_gender_ethnic_0506.pdf</a></p>
<p>The real issue is whether an affluent URM gets anywhere near the boost a low income URM gets. Anyone out there at a schools with significant numbers of affluent URMs who has seen where they got in? My own children didn't attempt HYP.</p>
<p>I don't think that either low income or high income URMS get as much of a boost as people think. When it comes to high stat URMs, however, they are so rare that unless they have a major flaw in their application such as a felony conviction or a sub 3.0 gpa, they probably can get into at least one top 10 college regardless of whether the student is rich or poor.</p>
<p>Just check that link that I posted on SAT scores by race. There aren't a heckuva lot of high stat URMs to choose from. Remember, too, that many of those high stat URMs aren't applying to top colleges. They may wish to go to their state public university or to a nearby university or an HBCU. They also may have bad grades or other problems.</p>
<p>"The real issue is whether an affluent URM gets anywhere near the boost a low income URM gets. Anyone out there at a schools with significant numbers of affluent URMs who has seen where they got in? My own children didn't attempt HYP."</p>
<p>There are many more high(er) income URMs at HYP than lower income ones. This is easy to see from H.'s Pell Grant numbers - only 6.8% of full-time non-extension school students (among the lowest in the nation.) Yet, well over 10% of the total student body is made up for URMs. If even half the Pell Grantees are white, it would mean that well over two-thirds of URMs are not Pell Grantees, and the number of all students at HYP between $40k-$60k in income (of any race) is extremely low. </p>
<p>What is unknown is whether the percentage of full-pay URMs matches those of white students. I think that is relatively unlikely, and I feel confident that average income, even of full-payers, will be lower than the "full-pay average". But there is no question that to the degree that URMs get a boost at all, the largest number of those getting the boost are not poor.</p>
<p>Is the perceived size of the boost really important? Behind the semantics, there is an undeniable truth: there are simply not that many high scoring minorities, regardless of their socio-economic backgrounds. For the schools that are subject to increasing scrutiny, minorities with stellar test scores represent a very precious commodity. The combination of boosting elusive diversity objectives and not eroding selectivity ratings is simply too hard to resist. Add the ability to forego subtantial financial aid and the candidate becomes a trophy worth chasing with abandon.</p>
<p>Trying to sugarcoat the formidable advantages given to URMs falls in the same category as trying to convince anyone that Early Decision and Early Admission do not offer substantial advantages. The saddest part of this story is that admission boosts for minorities are STILL needed and warranted. The same cannot be said for ED and EA! </p>
<p>Does anyone want to compare how different the mailboxes are for minorities with PSAT scores of 180 and non-minorities during the courting period for admissions? </p>
<p>Here are a few additional excerpts of an article that has been quoted many times on CC, as well on web sites dedicated to expose the "abuses" of AA practices.</p>
<p>
[quote]
AMHERST, Mass. -- As one of only 192 blacks who scored higher than 1450 on the SAT this year, Alice Abrokwa is being wooed by some of the nation's most elite colleges. Boston University held out the likelihood of financial aid for the shy high school senior from Alabama before she had even applied. Massachusetts Institute of Technology paid her to attend a six-week summer program. Washington University in St. Louis and Amherst College in Massachusetts flew her to their campuses as part of special student outreach efforts.</p>
<p>Attracting students like Abrokwa is a high priority for Amherst, which argued in a Supreme Court brief in support of the University of Michigan policies that student diversity has helped make American universities "the envy of the world."</p>
<p>Like many other colleges, Amherst identifies possible recruits by purchasing data on minority students who have scored well on standardized tests. Marketing such data has become a big business for the College Board, the nonprofit educational trust behind the SAT. When students take the test, they are also invited to fill out questionnaires that ask, among other things, their race.</p>
<p>The College Board provides 1,600 colleges with 64 million names a year, sorted by subcategories such as ethnic group and Zip code, said Sam McNair, director of the organization's Student Search Service. At 26 cents per name, this works out to more than $16 million in low-overhead revenue.</p>
<p>The competition is particularly ferocious for blacks and Hispanics with SAT scores that put them on par with the most talented white students. According to the College Board, only 1,877 black students (about 1.5 percent of blacks who take the tests) scored higher than 1300 out of a possible 1600 on the SAT in 2003. Only 72 scored higher than 1500.</p>
<p>Among the overall student population, 148,024 (about 10 percent of test takers) scored higher than 1300, and 13,897 earned scores higher than 1500.</p>
<p>"Most of these students don't realize that they are being fought over," said Joy St. John, an Amherst admissions officer who specializes in minority outreach, gazing over a room of 70 or so black, Hispanic, Asian and American Indian students whose SAT scores ranged from the low 1100s to above 1500. "They are modest, and they don't know the options that are out there."</p>
<p>In order to get minority students to take a look at Amherst, the college offers heavily subsidized trips to the campus in the heart of Robert Frost country at the peak of the glorious New England autumn. St. John said that of the 170 students who attend the two annual open houses, about 70 percent will be offered admission to Amherst, and about a third of the attendees will accept.</p>
<p>During their weekend on campus, participants in the open house get a taste of life at Amherst, living in dorms, sharing meals with students and attending lectures. Other colleges offer similar programs, which high school guidance officers call "fly-ins."</p>
<p>"It's giving us a sense of campus life and what this college is like," said Marcus Sandling, a high school senior from Texas and one of the 72 blacks in the country who scored 1500 or above on this year's SAT.</p>
<p>Said Nicola Ulibarri, a Hispanic student from New Mexico who scored 1450 and is also being wooed by Wesleyan, Swarthmore and Macalester: "It's nice to feel wanted."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"What is unknown is whether the percentage of full-pay URMs matches those of white students. I think that is relatively unlikely, and I feel confident that average income, even of full-payers, will be lower than the "full-pay average". But there is no question that to the degree that URMs get a boost at all, the largest number of those getting the boost are not poor.</p>
<p>Of course when it comes to URMS going to top colleges, the largest percentage will probably be affluent. Why? Top scores and a rigorous coursework correlate with affluence for virtually everyone.</p>
<p>It's the schools in the affluent neighborhoods that have the AP/IB programs as well as the best teachers. Why? Strong parent groups made up of sophisticated, educated parents with the time and energy to that support teachers and advocate for excellence.</p>
<p>In addition, the most affluent families are the ones who can afford tutoring, psychological counseling, eye glasses, medical care, summer camps, extracurriculars like music lessons that also boost kids' abilities to read and do math.</p>
<p>The most affluent people also have Internet access at home, books at home, and quiet places for kids to study in safety while also having caring, educated adult relatives help them out.</p>
<p>Consequently, of course, there will be more affluent students of all races with the backgrounds that will make them desireable to top colleges. However, when it comes to URMs, the numbers are so small that for diversity reasons, any high scoring URM with a decent gpa is going to be more likely to get into a top college than would a similar white or Asian student because there are so many white and Asian students with high scores, excellent grades, and rigorous coursework.</p>
<p>For example, only 2494 African Americans took the AP chemistry exam in 2005. Only 547 got 3s or higher on it. Only 77 African Americans got a 5 on that exam. The average score for black students on AP chemistry was only 1.75.</p>
<p>High scores combined with high grades on a subject like chemistry would be very desireable for a school like MIT or Cal Tech. Just look how small the group is of black students who have even taken AP chemistry. Of those, some also have bad grades, but high scores. Some have decent grades, horrible scores. Some have no interest in pursuing a degree in science or engineering.</p>
<p>(I know that colleges don't usually see students AP scores before accepting them, but I still think this is a good example of how small the field is of URMs who qualify for certain types of schools).</p>
<p>By comparison, 78,453 students took the AP chemistry exam in 2005. Only 4% of those were black. 4.7% were Latino. 0.3% were Native American. 21.9% were Asian American. 61.3% were white. The overall rate of students scoring 3 or higher was 56%. 15% of all students scored a 5.</p>
<p>"Trying to sugarcoat the formidable advantages given to URMs"</p>
<p>It's only an "advantage" if one discounts the experiences and attributes that URMs uniquely bring to the campus while assuming that the results of a 3-hour test are "worth" significantly more. (To my way of thinking, a highly questionable assumption - one could just as easily argue that those with high SAT scores get an unfair "formidable advantage" based on their parents' income - one small piece of affirmative action for white folks - and I think that is closer to the truth.)</p>