<p>There are several factors in considering schools. The first among them, that we talk about often, is teacher. If you are happy with the teacher at FSU (which does have a good reputation for piano, at least here in Atlanta) then go for it.</p>
<p>Two other factors commonly discussed are money, and quality of orchestra. FSU wins on money, and since you are a piano major, the orchestra comparison is moot.</p>
<p>bassdad: yes, you get my point! i really want to go to MSM but they are not giving me enough money. </p>
<p>my parents were going to make to change my major to like pre-med if i did not make it to any music school - seeing that i should not go on any further. </p>
<p>However, I love playing piano. I’m also in the IB program so it has been really long years till I reached here. I mean, I was already accepted to NYU and EMORY just with my academic grades. However, I want to pursue in music. MSM is one of top conservatories, so when i got my acceptance letter, I was extremely happy just thinking about me in the nyc. However, I got the financial letter the day after and … it literally felt like from heaven to hell. It is pretty sad that I cant go to my “dream” school because of money. I mean, my parents are just simply middle class. They could technically pay for it but it would be like taking EVERYTHING from them. So if i think about the money, I think i should go to FSU but for my self, without any money concern, I would pick MSM over FSU. So what I trying to do is to find the BEST way for me. FSU for BM seems pretty good deal but I’m just concerned about the FUTURE as in MASTER. </p>
<p>It seems like FSU with good summer camps is the way to go??? My mind is keep changing every hour between MSM and FSU :[</p>
<p>Is there any other FSU piano prof that anyone suggest?? I’m planning to visit FSU during spring break! </p>
<p>so… transfer? MSM for BM? FSU for BM? MSM for MM?</p>
<p>please help!</p>
<p>Only thing that I can relate that may help you is that in talking to the MM students at IU a lot came from small colleges where they had great teachers and they were all accepted at more than one of the top conservatories. I came to the conclusion that as long as you have a good teacher that you enjoy working with you will still progress at your craft at the same pace as if you were at a conservatory. FSU like most big state schools is a fine place to study for your BM and I would suggest that you try to have a lesson during your spring break vist and then decide if you can “live with that choice” and still be motivated to work hard at FSU and shoot for your MM at MSM.</p>
<p>jp,</p>
<p>By all means go visit FSU. Even if you have already had a sample lesson or two there, try to schedule another, perhaps with a different teacher. See if they have a program that will let you stay in a dorm overnight, eat at the student cafeteria and sit in on a class or two.</p>
<p>Thinking about your future is a very good thing. You are already thinking about the next step to a Master’s degree. When you and your family make the decision about which school and which major, I would suggest that you think a step or two further down the road than grad school. Relatively few pianists meet with immediate financial success, even after graduating from one of the top conservatories with a graduate degree, because there are a lot of really good pianists already out there. It often takes a new grad a period of some years to establish a name for themselves, make connections in professional music circles, build a teaching studio and increase their income to the point where they are financially independent. So you have to think about what happens when you finish school and perhaps still need some help from your family until your can establish a career of some sort. Would your family be willing to help you at all in that situation? Would they be able to if they have spent the money to send you to MSM? If you go to FSU instead, would they be willing to deposit a fraction of the money that would be saved each year into an account intended for your use for grad school and beyond? I suggest you talk about this with your family before deciding anything.</p>
<p>I really don’t think you are being at all rational here. You are young and are asking older and more mature (hopefully) folks here to help you rationalize your decision and for the most part we can’t. Understand that we would all have liked in our lives to have bought the house, car, furniture, education for our kids that we could not possibly afford and have made the decision (hopefully) not to do this.</p>
<p>First off let’s straighten out your numbers a bit. MSM is giving you $5000 towards $52000 of the listed COA. That leaves $47000 not $45. As a parent of a son in college let me say that $52 is really, deep down $54 maybe $55. That number is in reality only your Freshman year costs. Assume that those costs will go up year by year so your COA as a Junior and Senior could possible top $60K. That’s over $200,000 in loans. What is it you think you will do after graduation that will possibly allow you to pay that off ? Go for a MM ? All that does is add another $150K to that figure or so so in the end, with a MM from MSM (nobody at that point will care at all where you got your undergrad degree) and $350K in debt. Even if you get out and immediately get to work earning $100K/yr (highly doubtful) you will be in the whole for over $3000 a month in loan repayments.</p>
<p>Do you actually expect anyone here, a group made up mostly of parents to tell you “Yeah, go ahead follow that dream” ? We all want the best for our kids but rationally what we want is the best for our kids within reason. It is unreasonable to spend $200K at MSM over a free ride for FSU. Sorry but it’s time to grow up.</p>
<p>Just wanted to say I agree with pointegirl’s positive comment about Prof. Read Gainsford at FSU, he is known to be a great piano teacher and performer.</p>
<p>jp0701: I think that you might be attaching too much importance to the reputation of MSM and the mystique of NYC. Reputation and reality can be very different. </p>
<p>While I know nothing about FSU’s piano department, I know that most state schools have at least one excellent piano teacher. You may find yourself getting considerably more teacher attention and energy at FSU. </p>
<p>Many NYC teachers teach at two or more schools in addition to having private studios and thus are often only at a particular school for a half day or one day per week. Some of the bigger names in NYC perform and thus miss many lessons during the year (which might be made up by them with two lessons in a week or might be made up with a teaching assistant). I’m not sure what the piano teaching world is like, but I know that some big-name teachers at big-name conservatories have teaching assistants do much of the regular teaching (and this is not necessarily a bad thing, especially since sometimes the assistant is a better teacher than the teacher!). </p>
<p>Most conservatories like MSM have a rather limited selection of liberal arts offerings and at some conservatories the quality of these offerings is suspect. At FSU you will have a wide array of non-music courses to choose from. </p>
<p>Have you had sample lessons at both MSM and FSU? If not, be certain that you arrange a couple at FSU immediately. If you choose to ignore the sage advice offered here and decide to go to MSM, do not do so without first getting a sample lesson from the teacher you have been assigned there. </p>
<p>You have said that your attendance at MSM would take everything from your parents. I do not think you want to do that. As a music grad, you would not likely ever have the capacity to repay your parents.</p>
<p>I see.
I did schedule for a tour in FSU during my spring break. I will definitely visit the music department. From what I am reading, I suppose that I will have to just deal with FSU if its not BADDD.</p>
<p>bassdad: yes, If I go to FSU, my parents can save money for MM. They will be able to give me those money for the future. </p>
<p>sagiter: I wont be in debts because my parents would be paying for it. I’m not saying that I cant go at all but it would just be a burden for my parents. </p>
<p>violindad: wow, thanks! I had no idea about those. If that is the case, then I would not want to go to MSM.</p>
<p>jP-</p>
<p>Here is my take, for what it is worth. Juilliard and other high level programs, like MSM (I am not going to get into the debate about which is better, etc, among the ‘high level programs’) have a name because like the Ivies, they a)Have been around a long time and b)have had successful students and c) tend to attract name faculty (who in my experience, may be name because they were a great performer). All of which has given them a face name (the irony is that MSM started as a community music program, and didn’t become a degree granting program until between 50 and 60 years go, I forget the exact year),so it might have less of a track record then some lesser named programs. </p>
<p>Juilliard and MSM have an even better edge then just that, in that NYC is an international cultural center, there is just so much music and dance going on there that a)it tends to attract both high level student and faculty and b)gets written about a lot because it is also in the center of the media that surrounds culture and arts. Because of that, Juilliard and MSM have an international reputation, that is burnished by the fact that Juilliard (and MSM) have had world class musicians come out from there. Violinists in China have heard of Juilliard, because of people like Itzak Perlman and Pinchas Zukerman and the like have come out of there, or to people who are in Korea that people like Kyung wha chung and Sarah Chang have gone there, and likewise on the Piano famous pianists have come out of there (and in the piano world, I am sure Lang Lang having gone to Curtis has given that a cachet). </p>
<p>Again, miles and miles of wordage have been written about the successful students coming out of Juilliard and MSM (and other programs, of course, at the same level), and that positive ink outweighs what is written about those who don’t make it, not much interest in those who fail I suppose. Want a prime example? Dorothy Delay had this incredible reputation as violin teacher, which came about when Itzak Perlman became her student, and hit the big time, then Pinchas Zuckerman hit it, and then came along Nigel Kennedy and Nadia Salerno-Soderbergh and Midori and Sarah Chang and a slew of others…but what that left out is the many multiples of that who never achieved more then moderate success, if any kind of success. Because of those successes, people wanted to get into Delay’s studio, and she literally had hundreds of kids in her studios at the college and pre college level…98% of whom probably never got far <em>shrug</em>. Juilliard and other high level programs are the same way, they have notable successes out there, but what people don’t see is the layers upon layers of failures that lie below that. </p>
<p>Likewise, there is the common (if mistaken) belief that somehow going to Juilliard or MSM or NEC, etc or Curtis, based on having gone there, will guarantee success in of itself, it is not uncommon, and that is the biggest misnomer. Yes, schools like that do have advantages, including being with top level students that can help drive a student forwards, and access to an incredible amount of culture and performing opportunities that may not be available in the scale it is there at other programs, but to equate that as ‘the only place to go’ is a misnomer, because there are a lot of factors weighing in on where to attend, and no place, NEC or FSU, can guarantee anything, other then an education and a diploma. This is true in the academic world, Ivy graduates often end up not achieving all that much, and kids from lesser known schools end up doing amazing things…And in music, when you are auditioning for artists representation, or to enter a competition, or for an orchestra job, having MSM or Juilliard or NEC on your resume might get you noticed in some cases, but in most it is simply a name on a CV, and what gets you the job or whatever is how you play. </p>
<p>Some of that belief, especially in recent times, I suspect is cultural, from people who come from countries where going to a name school does set your career path forwards, that if you don’t get into the top level school, you won’t be able to get into a high level career path, but that isn’t true with the music schools, any more then it is with having an ivy league education guaranteeing success. </p>
<p>Do Juilliard and MSM turn out high level music students? Yes. Do they offer unique opportunities to some or all of their students? Yes. Do they tend to attract high caliber students, at least in part because of the name? Yes. Do they guarantee success or even give that big an advantage? In my opinion, no, once you walk out those doors, it doesn’t give enough of a boost IMO to make it critical,that if you don’t go there you are screwed. </p>
<p>Schools like that offer networking, but if you look at the stats, if you look at how many of the kids from those schools end up going nowhere (someone mentioned an article about kids graduating from Juilliard profiled 20 years ago and how many of them end up outside music), you will see Juilliard, MSM, NEC et all are not the yellow brick road to success they are cracked up to be; they give advantages, but in the end don’t offer all that much more. Put it this way, I have run into “Juilliard trained musicians” teaching at local community music schools, and that isn’t all that rare, have seen that with graduates from a lot of places. </p>
<p>I also agree with the others, given the situation at hand, unless somehow your family situation allows forking over some significant portion of the 47k difference without having to go into debt or the poor farm, then it may not be a great idea to go to MSM, the additional benefits it provides at the UG level probably are not worth the debt load (just my opinion, of course). To come out of UG with a 350k debt load is staggering, even if that is in relatively low interest rate loans. Given that you may want to go to grad school (so paying back the loans will be deferred), getting a degree from MSM and then your masters is unlikely to produce a job right out of school that can swing that kind of loan, even Lang Lang didn’t start out making 6 figures, and want to know the numbers of musicians who come out making even 50k a year? It isn’t a lot, and even if you somehow came out and were making 50k, it wouldn’t be enough to pay back the loans and live almost anywhere. </p>
<p>And piano is even worse then other instruments, in many ways it is sink or swim. String instruments, percussion, winds and other instruments have the flexibility of doing chamber music, orchestral work, working the pits of professional theater and so forth, teaching, or some combination of the above, as well as opportunities to solo. </p>
<p>Piano basically has limited paths available, which makes ‘making it’ even more difficult then most, pianists either try to make it as soloists, they get work as accompanyists, they teach or in limited cases do chamber music (there are relatively few regular chamber groups with piano; there have been a number of piano trios, like the Beux Arts trio and Rubinstein/Piatagorsky/Heifetz, but they are a small fraction of a world dominated by string quartets and brass quartets and the like). This I really question having 350k in debt, on something that like all music, if not worse, is a crapshoot with the dice loaded against you on becoming a highly paid performer that could afford that. </p>
<p>And as others have pointed out, you could go to FSU, come out with a free ride, and then go to grad school at a ‘higher level program’, students do that all the time. Believe me, where you went to school gets trumped mighty fast out there in the world, once you get beyond the doors of the schools and are out there working, it is all about your ability, networking skills and how well you work out as a performer and/or colleague. If FSU offers a decent piano program, with a teacher that can push you, and do so debt free, then concentrate on preparing for a high level masters program, which can polish your abilities, and in the end you probably will come out financially a lot better off (when people mentioned the word TA or GA, they are talking about teaching assistant or grad assistant. Grad programs as part of getting a masters degree, often in return for a full or partial scholarship plus potentially stipends, have grad students teach UG courses or acting as teaching assistant to other teachers, so grad school can financially cost less then they otherwise would (I am not familiar with grad programs in music, what I talk about is common in academic programs, especially those leading to a pHD, for full time grad students, I assume it is true in music).</p>
<p>In the end what this boils down to I think is weighing the pros of going to a high level program (that will put a big financial bite on you), looking at the advantages versus going into bankruptcy, then looking at alternates and asking would the program give a good enough education to allow you to get into a good grad program, and weighing that all up.</p>
<p>One thing I have learned in the world of music is that the conventional wisdom about anything often has significant caveats to them, if not outright falsehoods. There are people, for example, that believe that in the audition process for high level programs, that the person who scores best on an audition will get in; there are people who believe that getting into a name school will guarantee success, that out in the field all that matters is how well someone performs technically (big one in the violin world), that if you work with a great teacher and win competitions your future is set, all of them missing huge chunks of reality in them (plenty of people who have won high level competitions end up doing relatively little). </p>
<p>Think about this, in the end, among people highly skilled/trained, is that ‘making it’ often seems to come down to serendipity about who is successful and who isn’t. Are you willing to bet a 350k debt load on that, that at some point you will be able to afford to pay for that loan, and know that even if you do make it, that point will probably happen a ways down the road after finishing school, and in the meantime you will be struggling to figure out how to pay it. That has to be weighed up, and frankly, I think betting that a ‘great program’ will make it easy to pay that kind of debt is like playing Russian Roulette with 4 bullets in the chamber, the odds are about the same IME. </p>
<p>I wish you luck, and understand that the people on this board in many cases know the reality of the music world, some of them are musicians themselves, others have children working through the process, others have contact with the ‘real’ world of music, not the fantasy version. Conventional wisdom, like you ‘absolutely have to go to a name school to make it big’ is based for the most part on the beliefs of people who have not been around music, who have seen a Lang Lang or Perlman or Midori or Chang, seen the headlines and the glowing articles, seen where they went, and put two and two together to make four, when the answer is really 5. In the end the decision is going to be yours, but I strongly recommend you start reading threads on here, and also read books about the music world, and articles in music magazines (many of these are on the net), real world accounts of musicians, including those who have made it, about the realities of life in music, before making a decision. I can understand your dream of going into music, I wouldn’t be supporting my son in his dreams, that at this level has already cost a lot of money and support on our part, if I didn’t, but you need to be realistic, too. One thing I have learned, no matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you love the music, there are kids as good or better out there, and piano is an especially competitive world. Put it this way, people going to med school can come out with 200k in debt, but if they graduate and become an MD, they face realistic chances of having a profession that can pay off that debt and have a comfortable living; you can get a PHd in piano performance from Juilliard, have that kind of debt, and face years of jobs paying very little. </p>
<p>The other nice part about studying at FSU is that you have options there you don’t at a conservatory, if the passion dies (which sometimes it does), you are in a decent school and could switch to something else, which isn’t easy at a conservatory, especially if you have already thrown a year or two tuition (worse, borowed money) out the window, at FSU you could potentially keep on with a full scholarship, and maybe turn pre med or something else, and not lose all that much. And if you still have the passion after 4 years for piano, you can pursue it at a higher level knowing you want to do this, and also without having a ton of debt on your back, or parents financially wiped out…</p>
<p>jp…I understand where you are coming from having just sent a D off last fall in pretty much the same situation (not full ride though! congrats). We sat down and discussed at length what the pro’s and con’s were to attending the more expensive school. The logical thing to do is go for the free ride, but the life experience at MSM is also very valuable. </p>
<p>We chose to allow D to attend the more expensive school (in Washington, DC so costs are comparable to MSM) with the understanding that she take a small unsub Stafford loan out and work during the summer. She has a few awards tied to GPA so we didn’t want her working during the school year. This does not wipe us out or prevent us from retiring so we all felt it was worth it. Now after almost a full year of undergrad, I have to say as a parent, we absolutely made the right choice. The growth of D is unbelievable (although like yourself, she is an overachiever and would do great anywhere).
What I am saying is: sit down with your parents and honestly tell them how you feel. Also tell them that you don’t want to put them in undue hardship. Openly discuss how this decision will affect all of your lives. THEN make the decision. BTW, I have a very successful friend that is an attorney who was an undergrad music major. Admitted to Julliard but didn’t attend -It’s not written in stone, it’s a journey.</p>
<p>PS: a classmate of D was also admitted to same college but couldn’t afford to go even with finaid. She LOVES the college she chose to attend (in state almost free ride) and I just saw her post to D that she absolutely made the right choice. Moral…you will be happy next year no matter what.</p>
<p>jp, the posters above have spoken wisdom. violindad, Bassdad, musicprnt and others have covered just about every angle that should be considered.</p>
<p>I’m going to throw in one or two more, as I have gotten the sense that you may not have done all of your homework when it came to applying musically. Teacher/faculty research and choice is a prime criteria for most students in determining where to apply. binx touched on it earlier. I get the impression, perhaps quite wrongly that you applied to MSM without visiting, exploring faculty options, and I get the impression you did the same for FSU. Quite frankly, if you have yet to visit either one, I suggest you do before making a commitment to either.</p>
<p>You may well not feel comfortable at either for any number of reasons, and that would be a shame.</p>
<p>You asked me earlier about perceptions and prestige. I cannot explain, and quite frankly nor do I understand the obsession with it. I agree with musicprnt that there could well be some cultural bias at work here. Your phraseology suggests that English is not your first language and that reinforces my belief that either you or your parents are being somewhat driven by that bias.</p>
<p>My advice is to get over it. I have seen the effects on more than one high level music student. I have also seen extremely gifted musicians denied the opportunity to continue high level study because of that bias. Be thankful, as it appears you are at least being given the opportunity to pursue the Muse.</p>
<p>Some of your comments also seem to reflect a fairly rose colored view about the music profession. If you have not done so already, please read this <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html</a></p>
<p>You mentioned the possibility of transfer. I would suggest some initial reading before considering that path, and please be advised that talent and scholarship money is quite often reduced or curtailed for transfer students.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/862312-how-difficult-transfer-one-music-school-another.html?highlight=transfer[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/862312-how-difficult-transfer-one-music-school-another.html?highlight=transfer</a></p>
<p>You asked for advice and opinion, and numerous observations have been put forth. My personal impression is that however sound, you do not necessarily choose to hear them.</p>
<p>The best of luck whatever be your choice.</p>
<p>i am not an expert in this field, but in the case of cheaper may not be better …</p>
<p>we are not talking about a few thousand dollars difference. we are talking 180K over 4 years. that is a big difference!!!</p>
<p>violadad: im not trying to ignore comments on here. I’m just trying to see different perspectives and I do appreciate your help.</p>
<p>I actually think I know where I’m heading after all this discussion. Thanks for all your help guys! I really appreciate it!</p>
<p>Let us know, jp0701, when you have made your final decision. Be sure that you book a lesson or two prior to visiting FSU. All the best in the future!</p>
<p>The OP mentioned getting into NYU and Emory. Were there scholarships involved? Any possibility of a music BA there?</p>
<p>wel: well yeah there is a possibility but whats the difference between BA and BM for music? and I will be hearing about the scholarships this week.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/561184-help-understanding-ba-vs-bfa-vs-bm.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/561184-help-understanding-ba-vs-bfa-vs-bm.html</a> will give you the background.</p>
<p>Two more:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/887805-what-difference-between-bfa-music-bm.html?highlight=BFA[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/887805-what-difference-between-bfa-music-bm.html?highlight=BFA</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/150983-music-performance-bm-bfa-vs-ba-path.html?highlight=BFA[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/150983-music-performance-bm-bfa-vs-ba-path.html?highlight=BFA</a></p>
<p>You’ve been given advice but you know that ultimately, it’s your choice and you need to go where you feel the most comfortable with the teacher and the school- you’ll know where that is! The money involved is a huge difference and the cost of living in NYC will add even more as will transportation- yes, you can appeal the award, but MSM is not likely to come across with a whole lot more, but it’s worth asking if you are truly interested. Go, take trial lessons if you haven’t and then lay it all out on paper, side-b-side, pros and cons. For you, it is all about the teacher, and finding the one who can help you reach your full potential will be the key…
Good luck with your decision and congrats on being accepted to great schools!</p>
<p>Mezzo: thanks for the post. yes, I think that finding the right teacher who can actually HELP me exceed is the FIRST choice. I’m actually trying to convince my parents if i can visit MSM as well. At first, I thought about the school name first but now, im convinced that ill be working with the teacher for another four year and realized that teacher is the MOST important especially for musicians. Thank you!</p>