<p>dstark: yes</p>
<p>CF: thanks for all your posts</p>
<p>Oh never mind, I just remembered: It was the women who called sorority women “rape fodder” for 30 years, and laughed.</p>
<p>Some bloggers are questioning the Rolling Stone story. I won’t link here because of the prohibition against linking to blogs. The skepticism mentions that (1) UVa frats don’t pledge in the fall. They pledge in the spring. So the part about this being a pledge initiation is questionable. (2) The frat said there was no party that weekend. Apparently, parties must be approved by the IFC. (Could have been an unapproved party, though). </p>
<p>The biggest credibility issue seems centered on the breaking of the glass table which she lay on for hours being raped, according to RS. If she lay on broken glass, her back and her dress would have been severely injured, even if the glass was tempered. The men involved would have had glass injuries also, given that all this took place on a floor covered in broken glass. How did she get broken glass shards out of her back? Would men risk injury to their penises on broken glass? These are the questions that skeptics of the story are asking. </p>
<p>Has there been any verification of the RS story? Have the Charlottesville police started an investigation? </p>
<p>Yes. An investigation has started. </p>
<p>By the way, you probably have enough to retire.</p>
<p>I’m read two versions: that the police will investigate and that the college has hired a investigation. Whether both are occurring or just one I’m not certain.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/25/us-usa-sexcrimes-virginia-idUSKCN0J92AF20141125”>http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/25/us-usa-sexcrimes-virginia-idUSKCN0J92AF20141125</a></p>
<p><a href=“CONTENTdm”>CONTENTdm;
</p>
<p>^I don’t know that is “true” but see no downside to women in accepting it as truth. </p>
<p>I have described a gang rape in a fraternity house in the 70s. Poetgrl has described one in the 80s. The Rolling Stone article is not the only report of gang rape in a fraternity house in the last few years. In the 70s (at my college) it wasn’t recognized as gang rape because we didn’t believe fraternity men were capable of rape. It was the young woman’s fault for being in that situation. We can talk anything away if we choose to do so. </p>
<p>I’m trying to figure out if any rational poster believes that a woman who is not a professional sex worker routinely gives consent to have intercourse with multiple men at a time. Otherwise- it seems that even if some of you believe that the first “partner” was consensual (and I have trouble with that based on the circumstances) you have to concede that the pile on that occurred afterwards was rape.</p>
<p>and the penetration using “found” objects? Exactly what basis do you guys have for pretending that this is consensual?</p>
<p>Either it is a dehumanization, just as dstark describes, or it will be disbelief in her report. If it is impossible for fraternity men to rape - there has to be another explanation.</p>
<p>When the main concern is the potential negative impact on young men from these stories and reports… we have to find a way to explain what is happening that diverts our attention from the actual rapes. imho ymmv</p>
<p>Bay, I’m the woman who said that 30 years ago sorority women at my school were often referred to as “rape fodder.” I did NOT say we laughed about it. I was appalled that these antediluvian institutions existed then, and I’m just as appalled today. </p>
<p>Antediluvian? What the heck does that mean? I assume it is supposed to be an intellectual put-down of women in sororities. </p>
<p>Perhaps it was MYO who mocked sorority women and said the “rape fodder” moniker ought to be laughed at. </p>
<p>“Some bloggers are questioning the Rolling Stone story. I won’t link here because of the prohibition against linking to blogs. The skepticism mentions that (1) UVa frats don’t pledge in the fall. They pledge in the spring. So the part about this being a pledge initiation is questionable”</p>
<p>I wouldn’t rule it out for two reasons. First, While the “formal” rush (for 1st years) is held in the spring, UVA also has a Fall recruitment known as “informal rush”. That is exclusively for transfers and 2nd, 3rd and 4th year students. I found this year’s dates on p13 of this brochure: <a href=“http://www.virginia.edu/fsl/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-2014-2015-FSL-Brochure.pdf”>http://www.virginia.edu/fsl/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-2014-2015-FSL-Brochure.pdf</a></p>
<p>It is not mandatory that every house participates in Fall Recruitment, and I have no idea whether or not Phi Kappa Psi participated that year. And, Second, some greek organizations are known to scout out and “select” new members ahead of time for spring rush. It’s called “dirty rushing”. It’s against the rules, just like hazing. You probably would never get a house to admit that they do it. Again, no specific knowledge on whether this frat dirty rushes or not. But, either of those scenarios could explain that detail of Jackie’s story in the RS article. </p>
<p>Bay, get real. You can look up antediluvian if you’ve forgotten it from your SAT-taking days. And you’re certainly capable of understanding its use in my context.</p>
<p>We get it. You liked being in a sorority. You weren’t harassed or denigrated or, god forbid, worse. </p>
<p>Lucky you; sadly, your experience isn’t exactly universal. In this whole discussion you’ve been pretending that we’re just “piling it on” the Greek system, ignoring the pertinent studies we’ve cited; you either misunderstood or tried to misrepresent the one study you cited. I personally think you’re out of touch with what’s going on with the Greek system. Perhaps in denial, too.</p>
<p>I am going to repeat once again: I was in a sorority and my mom & aunts. Most males in my family have been in fraternities for four generations. I believe in fraternity gang rape. I don’t think it is possible for the “good” fraternities to offset the bad when fraternity rape exists. Men not having the option to participate in fraternities won’t be disadvantaged in the same way a women is who is raped. Closing fraternities won’t eliminate campus rape. It may change campus culture. Campus culture has to change for rape to decrease. I am willing to believe in the serial rapist theory and it is quite comforting in a way. However, I also believe in the scenario in the Rolling Stone article where a young man who might not rape under other circumstances is corrupted by his peer group. </p>
<p>“Closing fraternities won’t eliminate campus rape. It may change campus culture. Campus culture has to change for rape to decrease.”</p>
<p>I really like and appreciate this comment, alh.</p>
<p>Katliimom,
I did look up antediluvian and it means before the biblical flood, or ridiculously old-fashioned. That sounds both ignorant and insulting. Please help me understand your intention if that wasn’t it. </p>
<p>If you read my posts carefully, you will know that I have not denied that fraternity men have committed rapes. My objection is only to the proposed blanket solution of banning all fraternities in order to supposedly reduce rape. I believe fraternity members are entitled to evidence that this will make a difference before they are wiped out. I feel that is very reasonable. </p>
<p>katliamom: Thank you, this has been bothering me for 40 plus years. </p>
<p>no, it wasn’t.</p>
<p>However, the very fact such an expression has existed (from a time rape wasn’t considered serious) and persistedto this day(when rape is considered a felony and treated as a problem for young women, not as their responsibility), as are the invention of the adjective “rapey” and its common use, both specifically to describe fraternities, indicates that UVA’s not an isolated problem. Not ALL fraternities are to blame, but all should look and search inside, and take the radical measures that are needed. A poster here explained what measures his fraternities took, as well as his university. He doesn’t seem traumatized by the limits placed on Greek life at his campus. I don’t see why rules that allow fraternities that are disgraces to the original concept, and young men who are a disgrace to the original word “fraternity”, can’t be changed everywhere, then upheld.</p>
<p>antediluvian means “very very old, to the point of being well past its prime” - ante = before (like in “am”) and diluvian = as pertains to big rains - “from before the big rains”, ie., Noah’s flood. Usually referring to traditions that seem to come from another era (which fraternities do) and to have stuck to a previous era (which fraternities have - the Greek letters, the concept of pledging, etc., it’s all 19th century secret society inspired and it’s odd in the 21st century). </p>
<p>Essentially, it means it’s high time fraternities are looked into with a 21st century lens, not just from the outside, but from fraternity members and alumni - and that’s happening, not just at UVA but at other universities, too. There’s just been too much involving fraternities in the past few years to sweep it under the rug.</p>
<p>BTW: It’s an expression and isn’t a put down. Your assumptions are telling though.</p>
<p>Bay, unfortunately, the evidence is not on the side of fraternities! That’s what we’ve been saying. And that’s what you’ve been ignoring. </p>
<p>
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<p>I haven’t ignored any of it. I’ve looked at it all. The data that everyone points back to is the “three-times more likely” study, that interviewed freshman men at one college for their opinion about whether they had ever been sexually coercive. I don’t think that is enough to indict the entire system. Sorry, but I need more, and I’m pretty sure most unbiased science-minded people would agree with me. </p>
<p>The UVA fraternity system is not representative of fraternity systems everywhere, and their gang-raping members are not either. </p>
<p>I have no problem with reforming the system if that is what is needed. I have never objected to improvements at all. </p>
<p>And MYO, just because something was invented in a prior decade (or century) doesn’t mean it is outdated today. Calling something popular today “antediluvian” is undoubtedly done to denigrate it and imply that it is worthless.</p>