<p>I saw the names in the comments of a prominent newspapers column. A list of all members of the house. Another column on a political website named the son of a former member of Congress as living at the house at the time. </p>
<p>If I were in a similar position to these men (she accused almost half of them) and were innocent, I’d be seeking a defamation lawyer about now. By not naming names, the rest are being slandered. </p>
<p>It’s a holiday miracle! :)</p>
<p>Bay and I seem to have found some common agreement. I am saying campus culture because this thread is about colleges. I agree we live in rape culture. Absolutely. I don’t agree with suppressing artistic expressions of sexuality by women or with advising women who may desire many partners and experiences to limit themselves to some sort of societal norm. Violence against women is different than sex. Although there will be perhaps for some a perceived overlap and that is another thread entirely. I support it if it you like it. I’m not that into it. I already said on another thread I have no idea what to think about porn and I’ve been thinking about it almost 50 years now. I think that has to do with consent as well. And how we define consent. too complicated for me. I am not close to that smart and I know it.</p>
<p>adding: I am a huge supporter of “slut” pride and the like</p>
<p>and raising gentlemen was a priority for me</p>
<p>@marie1234 wrote: “Every one of those examples is attributed.”. </p>
<p>So was Jackie’s. You were saying that other confirmation was needed and I am saying it wasn’t.</p>
<p>Yes, TatinG, It’s not hard to figure out who some of these guys are that were in that fraternity . Although the author of the RS article seems to have had a tough time figuring it out.</p>
<p>Looks like there is no police investigation. <a href=“UVA Rape Case Not Yet Under Formal Investigation | Time”>https://time.com/3616263/uva-rape-investigation/</a> </p>
<p>UVa is SO full of it. Sullivan should be fired immediately.Sure, UVA asked the local police to investigate, but by this time, UVa must know that the local police are not conducting an investigation. </p>
<p>I read an editorial or opinion piece in a local paper saying that the state should investigate the alleged rape culture at UVA—kind of like how the Ohio State Attorney General stepped in during the Steubenville case. The idea isn’t to investigate the rape itself, but how the administration handled the complaints of rape. </p>
<p>The author attempted to talk to the fraternity members. They refused. That seems like a reasonable reaction to me, under the circumstances (of guilt or innocence).</p>
<p>If you tell the police that a stranger broke into your apartment and raped you at knifepoint, they will believe you. That’s because that doesn’t resemble events that are not crimes. The problem is that some rape complaints, including many occurring on college campuses, do resemble events that are not crimes–in other words, sexual activity between college students who knew each other, and in many cases, did such things as go together to a private room. It is always going to be difficult to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there was no consent in such a case. I can’t think of any way to change that part of it. This may explain why some college officials might advise some complainants that they are more likely to get some satisfaction through complaint procedures at the college–because it’s the truth.</p>
<p>Note: I don’t mean to suggest that gang rape resembles situations that are not crimes. I don’t believe that at all.</p>
<p>A longer ban possible for fraternities?</p>
<p><a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?;
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<p>"Looks like there is no police investigation. <a href="https://time.com/3616263/uva-rape-investigation/“>https://time.com/3616263/uva-rape-investigation/</a>”</p>
<p>That is interesting. I watched a portion of the live feed of the UVA Board meeting last week. President Sullivan was asked by a board member what the University knew and when. Her response is that she did not want to answer that while the police investigation was ongoing. A police officer was in attendance and agreed. </p>
<p>Now we read that it is not ongoing at all? Hopefully, that is just a wrong report.</p>
<p>If that is true, then police are conducting the same type of rape investigation that police usually conduct. None. If they do anything it will probably be to try to discredit the victim and look for an excuse to continue doing nothing. Then they will announce that they found nothing, or that the victim could not provide enough details. </p>
<p>To me, if this is true, it suggests that there is some substance to the allegations. If this were wholly fabricated, I think they would have worked quickly to discredit the alleged victim. Doing nothing suggests that they want to be cautious about what they may find and where it could lead.</p>
<p>In addition, what are they doing about investigating the cases of the other women that came forward or the news that students have admitted to rapes but the University has not notified them? If they are doing nothing about the first allegation, I would bet that they are doing the same thing about the others. Nothing. I really hope this is not true.</p>
<p>I suspect that the idea that students “admitted to rapes” may be an overstatement. Students may have admitted that an informal complaint of sexual misbehavior had merit, which may not be the same thing at all.</p>
<p>Yes, clearly a gang rape is not one of those gray area cases and Jackie should have gone to the hospital and police immediately. It sounds to me from this quote:</p>
<p>"Asked by TIME for a response, Charlottesville Police spokesman Captain Gary Pleasants said he could not confirm that a formal investigation was underway and reiterated a previous statement that the department was “evaluating the next steps.” He added, “In most cases, a formal investigation would be launched when a victim of a crime or witness to that crime makes a report to the police.”</p>
<p>from that Time link above, that the ball may be in Jackie’s court now. It sounds to me that while Sullivan has asked them to investigate, they have not heard from Jackie. She needs to step up and file a complaint in order for it to go forth. Do we have any evidence that she has done that? </p>
<p>Where I think more work is needed at UVA and other schools as well, is that the victims don’t appear to be getting good sound advice in the immediate aftermath of an assault. The schools don’t seem to be doing enough to stress the urgency of going to the hospital on a timely basis, and to report their attacks (if they choose). It sounds like Jackie ultimately went to the Dean (who is also the head of the sexual misconduct board) months later after a long period of suffering. And what she got then was a hands off or a listening approach, help finding counselors, etc. but no real unbiased guidance as to what to do and how to proceed. I understand the thought process in that UVA and other schools don’t want to strip away the power of making a decision on whether to file a complaint with the school, the police, or to both, or neither from a victim (as it would be "re-victimizing’). I could see that this listening approach would be comforting to a victim (and that is why I think victims are supportive of Dean Eramo) especially after having peers who doubted that it even happened or thought one just needed to “get over it”. Of course the listening is important, but it is not enough. IMO, a victim who has just suffered a traumatic assault needs a team of independent advocates FOR HER (or him) to help guide her through all of these options, the pro’s, the con’s, with the likelihood of the outcomes, not an “advocate” who is playing both sides of the fence. Ideally, I would like to see a “go team” made up of people with different perspectives and motivations (such as LE, attorneys, & Counselors) assembled just for the victims that would sit along with the dean in a preliminary meeting. Let’s face it. Many of these women do not even tell their parents about the attack until way after the ball is rolling. They are going into the process blind, or on the well intentioned advice of someone who went before them into a system that is broken. </p>
<p>One source–I’ve no idea how reputable–is saying that Eric Cantor’s son belongs to the frat in question.
He was contacted for comment but did not respond–which means nothing because any lawyer would tell him to keep his mouth shut. It’s not clear if he belonged to the frat at the time in question.</p>
<p><a href=“Eric Cantor’s Son Is A Member Of The UVA Fraternity Accused Of Gang Rape | The Daily Caller”>http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/02/eric-cantors-son-is-a-member-of-the-uva-fraternity-accused-of-gang-rape/</a></p>
<p>@hunt. </p>
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<p>There is a tape of the assistant dean admitting that she had boys admit to having raped girls. You can look it up.</p>
<p>I’m not going to look for it, it’s been posted multiple times. There is no question about this fact.</p>
<p>Also, this idea that police are investigating rapes is ridiculous. Rapes are not investigated in this country at all. Police actively discourage filing charges even BEFORE they investigate, even in the case of women covered in bruises. Rape is not investigated. If it were, the alleged he said she said would disappear in a lot of cases.</p>
<p>Wow @jonri I can’t believe you posted a specific name here. I figured that out as well but would not have put a name out there, but maybe that’s just me.</p>
<p>@justlookingnow. I don’t think schools have adopted a "just listening’ policy in regard to rape. They have adopted a discourage reporting policy and this is why 86 of them are being investigated by the DOJ at this point, more to come, I’m sure. </p>
<p>this whole set up has just been more CYA.</p>
<p>What schools should do is to set up people who are in charge of going to the police with these girls, going to get the rape kit, making sure they have advocates and legal representation and someone to make sure the police are actually listening and taking them seriously.</p>
<p>These girls are traumatized. PTSD has begun to set in. They need a much different approach than the approach the police have been taking with them, as well. </p>
<p>But we have case after case of women reporting to police, getting the rape kit, and neither police nor administrators following through. Of course Jackie is scared to come forward. The retribution will be massive. It always is.</p>
<p>The author of the article was able to identify 20 members of the frat. Cantor is the only one it “outed.” Both Michael Cantor and his older brother Evan–who graduated in 2012 and thus was not a member at the time of the alleged incident–belongbelonged to this frat.</p>
<p>I am NOT saying Cantor had anything to do with this. There is NO evidence of that. </p>
<p>However, the factor Cantor’s kids belong/ belonged to this frat MAY be relevant to the willingness of UVa to pursue an investigation. </p>
<p>I will not be surprised if there is no police investigation. The surprise was learning that there would be one at all. I might be missing something, but according to the RS article and Jackie’s own words:</p>
<p>“Jackie is hoping she will get there someday. She badly wants to muster the courage to file criminal charges or even a civil case. But she’s paralyzed. “It’s like I’m in my own personal prison,” she says. “I’m so terrified this is going to be the rest of my life.”” </p>
<p>Doesn’t sound like she’s ready. Has anyone seen anything indicating this has changed? And, if she is not ready to report, she probably isn’t ready to cooperate with a police investigation. Can the investigation be done without her input? Sorry, I don’t know much about the legal particulars in this scenario. </p>
<p>I’ll just throw a curveball out there and hypothesize that at most public U’s, the socioeconomic status of frat members is higher than that of the student body at large. I don’t know enough about frats at private U’s to make the same statement- it could be true (or not).</p>
<p>This may help us understand why the wagons tend to circle every time there is a frat related scandal. Cantor’s son was easily identifiable (again, there is no evidence he was involved) and we all recognize his name because he dad was a national figure. But it is possible that the other men involved are the children of equally bold faced names (but someone in Texas or Oregon is less likely to know who that kid is).</p>
<p>I don’t know if it’s the cost of Greek affiliation that serves as a gate keeper to less advantaged students, or just self-selection (why would a kid who can’t afford the February ski weekend join a group that goes skiing every February without him?) but if my hypothesis is correct, there is little incentive for university administrators to push to eliminate frats. If frats represent the children of the more affluent families- why eliminate your cohort of full pay/future donors? </p>
<p>Happy to learn that I’m off-base and that frat membership at UVA or Alabama or Indiana or Wisconsin represents the glorious melting pot of those campuses.</p>
<p>i can’t edit my post #595, but want to add that comments to the article say UVa frosh can’t rush until second semester. If this is true, then Michael Cantor would not have been affiliated with the frat in the fall of 2012 when the incident occurred. </p>
<p>re 597, while my experience is out of date, at one of the schools you named, the frats self-segregate by socioeconomic status. There are a couple of frats whose members are predominately from lower middle class families. Dues would be lower and they would have fewer amenities. There wouldn’t be a ski trip, for example.</p>
<p>If the police are not investigating, then President and the police mislead the UVA Board at last weeks meeting.</p>
<p>"… while Sullivan has asked them to investigate, they have not heard from Jackie." </p>
<p>This was not the police response at the Board meeting. The officer in attendance backed President Sullivan’s assertion that the police are investigating and that is why she could not discuss what she and other Administrators knew and when they knew it with the UVA Board.</p>
<p>If that was not true, then I think President Sullivan is definitely gone. Lying to the Director’s face’s in a public hearing is very embarrassing to them. She could have just said that she would discuss it with the Board Members later in a closed session, but she didn’t say that. </p>
<p>I can’t understand why the police would not attempt to interview the victim, the UVA administrators, and all of the fraternity members individually as a start. That is not very difficult. What is wrong with doing that? What are they afraid of discovering? It seems to me that whether the claims are true or false, the police should try to objectively follow the facts where they lead. Doing nothing is the worst option. Even if everyone declines to speak with them, at least it would show that they made some effort.</p>