<p>Ultimately, a much higher level of self-discipline should help redressing the current egregious behavior. However, expecting that a system of self-regulation migh work requires one to be blind about the history. Simply stated, the type of proposals a la Dartmouth is too little and too late. They had plenty of prior chances to implement a system, and the latest “proposal” is nothing else than an attempt to delay and hope that the forces that are opposing the fraternities lose steam and desire. </p>
<p>Fraternities should not be given the opportunity to self-regulate; that is exaclly what brought us the current mess. What they need to do is to show the willingness to abide by regulations imposed by the schools, and accept that their continuing existence depends from how well they follow the rules. </p>
<p>@alh, how is this an either/or? I am not in the camp that “the truth is incidental.” That anybody should be able to put out allegations to advance a cause, regardless of fact or damage to reputation ( of an individual or group)… I don’t know whether the allegations are true or not, whether they are totally true, embellished, or a total fabrication. But I am willing to follow truth, wherever it may lead.</p>
<p>One truth is that confessed rapists at UVA suffered no consequences. Another truth is that rape and gang rape exist on college campuses. Do you dispute those truths? </p>
<p>Compare the level of journalism in the Oregon State story I posted above with the level in the RS story. The Oregon story is sourced with interviews from identified names. Interviews with all parties. Documents. Police. Coaches. Victim and assailants. I believe that story.</p>
<p>No, I don’t dispute the truth that rape and gang rape can exist on college campuses, including UVa. I do take exception to your assertion that we should not be concerned about these "boys " who may or may not be involved in anything in this particular instance. Again, it is not an either/or. I highly doubt anybody with children would think it is okay to put names out there of YOUR kids , male or female, before there is even any arrest. If that would be okay with you, then I don’t even know what else to say, </p>
<p>I don’t believe I actually wrote we should be unconcerned about false accusations. i believe I wrote focusing on false accusations changes focus from away from rape. i want to focus on protecting young women from rape. I want to focus on women. I do not want to focus on men. Men have enough advocates. They are doing okay. Women are being raped on college campuses. </p>
<p>TatinG, that story was written 16 years after the fact. 16 years. </p>
<p>Why are we talking about stories now instead of rapes? Rapes are occuring.
Why the diversion?</p>
<p>Why is this becoming a conservative-liberal issue? </p>
<p>As a father of two daughters, turning the rape issue into a political issue is beyond disgusting. </p>
<p>This idea about your two sides of a story being necessary is a joke. About one percent of your links have two sides in them. You can 't post your links in this thread because they are one sided political bs. Instead, you allude to your links. And I read them and they are organized crap.</p>
<p>I’m not even sure it’s worth responding. I do think it is always worth stating the truth… over and over and over and over. That just seems like one of those higher goods to me. </p>
<p>Whether Jackie’s story is true/false/half-true doesn’t negate the fact that there is a huge problem at UVA, which was what the author ultimately wanted to expose. </p>
<p>The Oregon State story is believable, and better journalism, because it was infinitely easier. The victim came forward and named names, both originally and now. There was a police record (not that it did any good). One perpetrator was willing to talk, in large part because he had not suffered any truly negative consequences, so it was painless for him to have learned his lesson, he was in no current danger, and he had nothing to be angry about.</p>
<p>Not every case is going to fit that pattern, and that case being believable and good journalism does not mean that every other case where the journalism is not so complete is a fraud.</p>
<p>It obvious you are passionate alh, but look at it this way, you don’t put women in a protectionist class all by themselves. We, meaning women, were there a hundred years ago and most of us don’t want to end up in that place. You can’t HAVE a discussion about this without consideration of the men. And lest someone chime in about male on male or female on female, yes that too, but the vast majority of what we are talking about is men and women and their interactions.</p>
<p>“One truth is that confessed rapists at UVA suffered no consequences.”</p>
<p>This is a bit misleading. Most of these guys would have been summoned before a fake school court with no real powers. No detectives, no subpoena power, no real punishments to threaten, no ability to prove the case. That’s what you get when you put academic amateurs in charge of prosecuting a class A felony.</p>
<p>The only reason they “confess” is to cop to a plea to some type of bad judgment to put it behind them. The academic court system for these high level offenses is a joke. If the school was going to threaten and hold out for expulsion, the guys would say (just like Jameis Winston at FSU) “It was consensual. Good luck proving otherwise fake school court system.” And those guys would wind up having confessed to nothing and received no punishment since the kangaroo court can’t prove anything.</p>
<p>I am not skeptical that rape occurs. It does. I am skeptical about this particular story. The Rolling Stone writer could have found a story with better substantiation, one would think.</p>
<p>The safe way to have reported Jackie’s story would have been to leave it as is, but omit the name of the fraternity. I have a hunch that naming the fraternity without substantiation was done intentionally to force Phi Psi, not RS, to do the investigation and out the perpetrators. Then Jackie wouldn’t have to do it. Phi Psi has no choice but to try to clear its UVA chapter’s name, so it will have to investigate. But then it will find out that the rape happened, and who did it, and once they find that out, they will have to report it to the authorities. That’s my theory, anyway.</p>
<p>UVA hired an independent counsel to investigate this and guess what? He had been a member of the same fraternity, although at a different college! Mark Filip is his name and he has since been pulled from the investigation. I have about as much faith in UVA’s investigation as I do in the NFL’s. </p>