All You Ever Wanted to Know About Ross

Pre-College Issues Summer Programs
1

<p>Section I: Introduction</p>

<p>I attended the Ross Mathematics Program for the past three summers as a first year, junior counselor, and counselor and have answered many questions about it over the past two years. I may return again as a counselor this summer as well. I have added a brief summary and summary of important updates, some Ross related questions I answered in the past year and then added last year’s post. The original post was from 2 years ago with occasional updates throughout the post, updates from last year are denoted by [NEW11:<strong><em>], and updates from this year [NEW12:</em></strong>]. Sorry for the messiness and repetitiveness of the post; I’ve been asked similar questions many numbers. I am also very happy to answer any other Ross related questions you may have either in this thread or through personal message. The Ross FAQ is also very good The</a> Ross Mathematics Summer Program for high school students, held on The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio. All text not in quotes is by me. I will also cross-post this on AoPS.</p>

<p>Summary: Ross is an intensive six-week math camp that focuses on number theory. Students attend 8 hours of classes per week and other than for occasional events the rest of the time is unstructured. However, as the Ross website states “students are expected to spend most of their waking hours, working on the mathematical problem sets” and this is meant quite seriously. Students who do not spend enough time on math are liable to suffer the wrath of the counselors.</p>

<p>Summary of important updates: The change to six weeks from eight has been significant. Some material was cut and standards of rigor (previously they were excessive in my opinion) at the beginning of camp were somewhat lessened but there has also been a small increase in the pace of the program. The condition of the dorm has somewhat improved. The food situation appears to be somewhat in flux. Last summer, we were initially forced to eat in one (in my opinion horrible) dining hall. After the students and counselors complained we were allowed to eat at the many (and much better) campus eateries. Eventually, they gave us meal cards that were accepted at both on-campus locations and some off-campus restaurants (although first-years are required to be with a counselor when off campus).</p>

<p>Section II: New Stuff since last year’s post</p>

<p>I answered some question in the responses last year’s post <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/summer-programs/1262763-semi-definitive-ross-updated.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/summer-programs/1262763-semi-definitive-ross-updated.html&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

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<p>By the end, most students will be working on problems related to one or two threads and sampling problems from other threads. This is normally accidental, but students generally gravitate towards to some topics over others. Of course, some boss students will complete most of the problems on each problem sets, although this is normally rare.</p>

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<p>I'm not entirely sure how hard to get in. You need to show some mathematical ability but don't need to be a mathematical superstar or anything. What is important is your potential to learn math not what you already know. I believe the application quiz is the most important part of the application. I think something like 40% of applicants were accepted last year. That doesn't mean much though without knowing the strength of the applicant pool though and unfortunately I don't think anyone on CC knows that. I don't think any time is too early to apply as long as you've spent enough time on the application problems. If you have other questions I'd be happy to answer them as well.</p>

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<p>You can definitely reapply if you have been rejected before. I'm not entirely sure about the last two. I think you would probably be able to defer your acceptance although you would have to talk the people who actually run the program. At the very least I can't imagine they would not allow you to reapply in future years.</p>

<p>The thread “Summer Program Ranking” generated some interesting discussion <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/summer-programs/803562-summer-programs-ranking.html?highlight=ross%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/summer-programs/803562-summer-programs-ranking.html?highlight=ross&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Although this entire exercise is silly, it is important to note that prestige varies dramatically based on what criteria you use. For example among the 4 major math national camps Ross, PROMYS, Hampshire, and Mathcamp, Ross is by far the oldest and most established. PROMYS and some other lesser known camps are derivatives of Ross. I'm also under the impression that Ross does much better than the other camps among grant giving organizations because it is much cheaper than the other programs and I don't think this difference is attributable to differences in operating costs. Among all these metrics Mathcamp places last among these 4 camps. Yet Mathcamp is the most selective of all the camps despite being either the largest or close to the largest. This suggests that the high school students think more highly of Mathcamp and more established institutions think more highly of Ross.</p>

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<p>I think camp life is pretty good. I've made a number of close friends there and I found the vast majority of people to be nice. I'm somewhat biased because I'll be a counselor this year but I think the vast majority of counselors and teachers are pretty good. Out of more than twenty counselors in the past two years there is only one that could be considered bad. There is no bed time. Students can and do stay up until all hours of the night and nobody has any problems with it.</p>

<p>[NEW12: I want to emphasize that despite spending most of your time working alone at math it is still possible to form close friends. There are a couple of Ross people I probably talk to online a couple of times a week and many more I still keep in touch with and this is not atypical. Also, I should qualify my statements about bedtimes. Nobody will care when you go to bed as long as you attend lecture in the morning. If you routinely oversleep lecture the counselors will give you curfew (essentially a bedtime).]</p>

<p>From the thread “Mathcamp” <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/summer-programs/1310422-mathcamp.html?highlight=ross%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/summer-programs/1310422-mathcamp.html?highlight=ross&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think Ross is similar in selectivity to Hampshire and PROMYS. While USA/Canada MathCamp may be the most selective the differences between the camps are large enough that you should go to the camp that fits you best. Working mainly by yourself on number theory at Ross is very different from the myriad of activities both math related and not math related at USA/Canada MathCamp. I'm not sure that I'd agree with MathCamp being the most respected math camp for high school students. Ross costs $2200 for six weeks which just goes towards room and board. MathCamp costs $4000 for five weeks. The only reason I can think of for Ross being so much cheaper than MathCamp is that while Ross receives lots of outside grants, MathCamp receives considerably less. This suggest that at least among grant-awarding institutions Ross is more well regarded. Ross is also much older and has spawned many other math camps like PROMYS which suggests that Ross has a greater influence in mathematical circles. The reason Ross is less selective is probably not because it is less prestigious but because it is considered to be less fun. MathCamp allows you to bring computers, go off campus without a counselor, organizes lots of field trips and other activities . At Ross you do math, more math, and even more math with only occasional other activities [typically no more than 1 frisbee game and 1 other activity per week]. If you want to math pretty much all day long every day than Ross is the place for you. If you're not interested in such an intense experience then check out the other camps.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure why the fact the people choose MathCamp over Ross shows it's more prestigious. As I said in my last post it's likely a lot of those people are choosing MathCamp over Ross because it's more "fun" or is much more flexible. People only go to Ross if they're really intent on learning number theory for the most part while MathCamp attracts a much broader set of people. That means the camps are different but not that MathCamp is more prestigious than Ross.</p>

<p>Section III: Updates from last year (December 2011)</p>

<p>I wrote this last year about the Ross program and much has stayed the same since then. I’ve decide to repost this with updates because some things have changed and the application is coming out soon so there will probably be increased interest in this in the near future. This is cross-posted from AoPS as well.</p>

<p>General Updates: The biggest change is that the program will be six weeks instead of eight this summer. The change is occurring because Ohio State is changing its academic calendar so Ross needs to be out of the dorms by the beginning of August. I’m not sure how this will affect the program other than less material will be covered and the program will be somewhat cheaper. The other important changes would be the change in hours of the student union food options and the prohibition on using library computers. Two years ago, the food options in the student union, which is generally considered to have the best food, were open all seven days. Last year it was closed on weekends and you had to eat at the inferior north commons during the weekends. Additionally, two years ago we were allowed to use the computers in the Science & Engineering Library. Last year we were not. I do not know what will happen next year but my guess would be is that it will be like last year. I have corrected some typos throughout the document. I added some additional comments throughout the document and marked them with [NEW11: _____]. I would also welcome comparative experiences from anyone who went to PROMYS particularly if they’ve been to Ross as well. I’m also happy to answer any questions you may have.
[NEW12: The food situation continues to be in flux as described above while the prohibition on library computers has remained]</p>

<p>Section IV: Original Post from May 2011</p>

<p>Over the past year I've posted a lot about my experience at Ross last summer both on the site and at CC as UMTYMP student. Given that the responses are in like 8 threads on two sites I've decided to try and collect all my responses in one thread. This will also be posted on college confidential.</p>

<p>From the 2010 Ross thread on college confidential

shushugah, I don't think it makes sense to compare the camps from best to worst. The camps cater towards different interests. For example, if you want to spend 8 weeks doing math almost constantly Ross is probably the best choice. But if you want to do things that aren't math related Ross isn't as good of a choice. From what I've heard HCiSSM places a large emphasis on its inside jokes and having fun. Awesome Math seems very geared towards competitions. Mathcamp seems to focus on various interesting subjects of math. Ross and PRMOYS are both entirely number theory. Another consideration is whether you prefer to work alone or in groups. At Ross working in groups is generally looked down upon. Often times at Ross you might spend hours or even days working alone on one particular problem. My understanding is that the doesn't really happen at other camps. While spending 8 days on one problem like I did at Ross last year might simulate actual research it wouldn't be very helpful in terms of math competitions.</p>

<p>In terms of instructors, I'm only familiar with Ross. The instructors are good but most of the learning you do by yourself anyways so they're not that important.</p>

<p>

Glad to have helped. At Ross, there is an hour of lecture each day and 3 days a week there is a 1 hour seminar. The lectures generally either explain new concepts, explore interesting tangents, or will go over old problem sets. The seminars are run by different people and some of them explore more tangential stuff like set theory while others focus on discussions of problems from the problem sets. Another important thing to note is that you work at your own pace. Oftentimes, a lecture will go over a proof from an old problem set so if you're going at a fast pace you'll have proved it by yourself but if you're going slower they'll give you the proof sometimes. </p>

<p>From the 2011 Ross thread on college confidential

The facilities are pretty decent. Our dorm building last year was pretty old but the dorm rooms themselves were nice and had a bedroom with bunk beds, a study room, and a bathroom. There was some communal rooms in the dorm where a lot of people would hang out. Although I never went to the athletic center, I heard it was of excellent quality. The student center where most people ate is also very new. Sets can either be done alone or in groups of people of like 2-3 people although there are no hard rules regarding this. You certainly would be able to work with your roommate as long as both of you pulled your own weight but not nobody will force you to work with them or anyone else for that matter.
[NEW11: We were in the same dorm last year and it’s getting worse. There were some problems with the dorm that didn’t really affect things. Hopefully we will be in a different dorm this summer.]
[NEW12: We were in the same dorm but they made necessary repairs so there were no problems with the dorm]</p>

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@kgppra053420 Ross is pretty strict about not letting you bring laptops. If you have a specific purpose that you'll need one for they may allow you to bring it for that purpose only. However, while it is not exactly true that there are computers in the dorm, you can go to the campus library to use computers. Although the counselors will be unhappy if you spend too much time using the computers, you will be able to use them for pretty much whatever you want to do.
[NEW11: Counselors will be unhappy if you spend any time using computers at the library. Additionally, you can’t really use them as they now require passwords which you won’t have. If you have an actual need to use one you will be able too though.]
[NEW12: Let me be absolutely clear: LAPTOPS ARE PROHIBITED (unless you have specific permission from Shapiro). Every year a couple people bring them and then the counselors confiscate them for the rest of the summer. You will survive without a laptop for the summer (and of course if you have an actual need for one you can borrow one from a counselor).]</p>

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You will probably initially be a bit behind but you should be able to catch up pretty quickly if you are well prepared. Some people came late last year and it certainly didn't affect them by the end of the summer. I am not positive that they will send you the work you miss but I've heard that other places and would think that it is probably true.
[NEW12: The new policy is that Ross will not accommodate anyone who will have to arrive more than a couple of days late]</p>

<p>

The Ross program gives a list of course topics here: The Ross Mathematics Summer Program for high school students, held on The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio. I wouldn't worry about looking like an idiot due to lack of talent. Ross will only accept people who will be able to do decently well if they work. The people who do the worst at Ross are without exception those who are too lazy to work hard. I wouldn't recommend studying number theory before coming to Ross; you'll do more than enough number theory at Ross. However, if you want to prepare for Ross I would recommend working on proof writing. I think you'd be better off studying something like logic or set theory before coming to Ross.</p>

<p>Ross will not allow you to bring a laptop for gaming. Although playing games on library computers is technically prohibited and will make the counselors like you less, plenty of people do it anyways and they won't actually stop you.
[NEW11: No gaming anymore due to prohibition on using library computers discussed above.]
People spend wildly varying amounts of time on the problem sets. Some people might only spend a couple of hours a day on math although those people don't do that well. Others will spend like 12 hours a day every day on problem sets. I think it takes the average Ross student 2-3 days to do a set although there is wide variation. You can work in groups or by yourself. Although it is kinda frowned upon if you come up with the solutions with other people it is not prohibited and it is certainly acceptable to bounce ideas off other people. People at Ross are on about every schedule imaginable. Some people work in the morning and afternoon and relax in the evening. Personally, my schedule was roughly like this
9 AM wake up and go to classes
10-11 AM after classes have lunch
12 PM go back to the dorm and take a nap
4 PM wake up and either work or go to the library to use computers
6 PM dinner
7 PM -4 AM work on problem sets
4 AM go to bed. Every week there is a frisbee game and some weeks there is another scheduled activity. For the most part though, free time is yours to use as you wish. Some people like to go the gym or hang out. You can also take a break more or less whenever you want as long as you remain productive.
[NEW12: My schedule is quite atypical though]</p>

<p>

Students are not allowed off campus without a counselor. However, there is a CVS on the far side of campus and counselors routinely take people to the closer one as well. There is a also a university bookstore on campus but I think those are only two place you'll have easy access to. There is a movie theater near campus but I don't think students are normally allowed to go there. Essentially, there are 5 major rules at Ross:
1. Get problem sets done at a reasonable rate
2. Don't leave campus without a counselor
3. Be in the dorms after dark
4. Go to the 1-2 hours of classes a day.
5. Don't possess prohibited items such as laptops.
Other than those 5 rules, your behavior at Ross is more or less unrestricted. </p>

<p>

There are no classes, so most people sleep in. You're expected to work on math for part of the time but the rest of the time is free. I guess at Ross the line between free time and math time is very blurred. Some camps might be like 4-6 work on math and then 6-8 free time but at Ross other than for classes all the time is free but you're expected to get stuff done. There were certainly weekends where I was on set [at Ross you're said to be on set if you've finished all the problem sets handed out so far. in the beginning there are typically a small group of people on set which shrinks until more or less everyone is no longer on set] and spent little to no time during math. Even if you are never on set, you could probably take a day or two off from math if you really wanted to.</p>

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I'll be coming back as a junior counselor. I'm not sure if you're allowed to use all the athletic facilities but I know you're allowed to go the main gym center. I think some people played tennis but I'm not sure. I assume you'd be allowed to bring a racket but again I'm not really sure. To be honest, I never used the athletic facilities although I think almost everyone else did. </p>

<p>So my friend tells me you're allowed to use 'Everything but rock wall, basically'.
[NEW11: I actually went to the athletic facilities once last summer. They’re really nice and you’re allowed to use them but you must resist the temptation to spend too much time there or you will invoke the wrath of the counselors.]
[NEW12: The counselors are serious about people not spending too much time at the gym. If your main goal is to work out then go elsewhere]</p>

<p>From the thread PROMYS, ROSS, or mathcamp on art of problem solving</p>

<p>

I think nikeballa96 describes Mathcamp and PROMYS pretty accurately but isn't as familiar with Ross. I went to Ross last summer and will return this summer as a junior counselor. Another important difference between the camps is how much time is spent learning techniques and theorems compared to how much time is spent proving theorems. My understanding is that Mathcamp is more like a regular math class in this regard and that classes due to their short length just go over the major results. At Ross however you'll spend most of your time coming up with proofs. I think PROMYS is somewhere in between in that every day you try to prove some theorems and then you get solutions at the end of the day. I would agree that if you're into competition math then go to Mathcamp. If you want to focus on number theory than either PROMYS or Ross. I would say go to PROMYS if you care about having fun but go to Ross if you want to truly learn math as the longer and more intensive experience allows you to come up with some really deep ideas.
[NEW11: Some of the counselors last summer have previously been at PROMYS. You don’t actually receive solutions at the end of every day but instead you move on anyways. Near the end of PROMYS I think people typically focus on 1 or 2 themes that build on each other but I’m not really sure.]</p>

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Maybe this is just my skewed perspective but I'm not sure PROMYS is just as intense as Ross. For one Ross is about 2 weeks longer than PROMYS which is something to consider. Maybe I am mistaken but I was under the impression that at PROMYS every day you get a problem set, work on it and then at the end of the day go over it with your counselor. Maybe this is wrong but at PROMYS is everyone working the same set? At Ross you spend as much time as it takes to solve all the problems on the set which can is some cases be more than a week. This leads to by the end of camp some people being on set 30 and others on set 10.
I agree that both are overall at the same level and have similar levels of students. I think there are stylistic differences between the camps though as some people from PROMYS have talked about spending time exploring Boston. I'm sure that's what some people want to spend their summer doing but that's not what people at Ross do.
[NEW11: See previous new comment. I maintain that Ross is slightly more intense than PROMYS but only mildly. The Ross counselors who had previously gone to PROMYS agreed with this sentiment too.]
[NEW12: Other PROMYS attendees have mentioned exploring Boston as one advantage of PROMYS. Although that may be fun, it is one important way that PROMYS is less intense than ROSS is where the emphasis is always on math]</p>

<p>From the thread PROMYS and Ross on art of problem solving</p>

<p>

For a general overview of the two programs, you should look at each program's individual thread and the thread comparing Mathcamp, PROMYS, and Ross. Ross and PROMYS are actually pretty similar as PROMYS was created to be like Ross. Here are some differences though
1. Ross is 8 weeks and PROMYS is 6 weeks. This allows you to do considerably more math at Ross but at the cost of more of your summer. I think the programs charge similar amounts of money so Ross is considerably cheaper per day.
2. Ross is Columbus, Ohio and PROMYS is in Boston. Although Columbus, Ohio has to be one of the most boring places in the US, the lack of interesting surroundings helps you focus on math. I heard at PROMYS people explore Boston which may be exciting but probably does not encourage doing math.
3. At Ross, first years are not allowed to bring laptops. I think PROMYS allows first years to bring laptops. I can imagine that laptops would significantly cut down on mathematical productivity although they would allow you to play more games. At Ross you can still use computers in the library but you have to be in the dorms after dark. At Ross you can also get yelled out for playing computer games. I do not know the policy for this at PROMYS.
4. At Ross first years focus pretty much exclusively on the number theory problem sets. According to the PROMYS thread, some first years at PROMYS do some kind of research thing which does not seem directly related to the number theory problem sets.
5. At Ross you work at your own pace so different people can be working on very different stuff at any given time. By the end of the camp, the number of sets people have done resembles a bell curve. The top students are usually on sets 25-30 (there are 31 sets and typically one student every 2-3 years finishes all the sets). the good students are on sets 20-25, the average students on sets 15-20, and the lazy students fail to finish 15. At Ross if you do something wrong on a set you end up redoing the problem.
I'm not entirely sure how PROMYS works so if someone who went there can correct me if I'm wrong about this that's be great but I think at PROMYS you get a problem set every day similar to Ross but then you go over it with your counselor at the end of the day. I think this means that at PROMYS everyone is on roughly the same set and if you don't solve a problem you'll eventually get a solution for it.</p>

<p>In conclusion, I think at Ross you'll end up doing more math while at PROMYS you'll end up doing more other stuff.</p>

<p>If you have questions that aren't answered in any of these posts feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer them.</p>

<p>[NEW11: See previous new comments on PROMYS. Ross is no longer 8 weeks so that difference no long matters. Ross is now somewhat cheaper than PROMYS though. I heard first years are not allowed laptops at PROMYS but I’m not sure how strictly that’s enforced.]</p>

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<p>Thanks to UMTYMP student for collecting all of this information on the program. I’ve spent three of my past four summers at Ross, including working there this past summer as a counselor (I also may be back next summer).</p>

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<p>Just to clarify (it’s a little ambiguous in the post), this is all regarding how things work at PROMYS; things are a bit more strictly sequential, set-wise, at Ross. As UMTYMP student mentioned, it’s entirely possible (on later sets - very likely) to spend multiple days on a single problem.</p>

<p>Good luck to those applying!</p>

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<p>After rereading my post, it’s clear why cambridgeMAmath is confused. The entire part quoted was actually by mathdork and I messed up the quotes when I complied the post this year. Oops! Ross is generally much more sequential as cambridgeMAmath pointed out.</p>

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<p>I recently came across a post on a math blog from someone who had been a counselor at both Ross and USA/Canada Mathcamp comparing them. Although the post is somewhat old and the author had been a counselor at Ross from 1998 to 2001, I think it still holds up pretty well [some of the stuff he says that I didn’t quote about selectivity and other stuff is definitely out of date though].

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<p>The quoted portion is part of comment 2. Beware that some of the other stuff is out of data. <a href=“http://sbseminar.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2009/03/12/interested-in-mentoring-at-mathcamp/[/url]”>http://sbseminar.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2009/03/12/interested-in-mentoring-at-mathcamp/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>The 2013 application is now available and can be found here [Ross</a> Mathematics Program, held at Ohio State University in Columbus](<a href=“Ross Mathematics Program - The Ross Mathematics Program”>Ross Mathematics Program - The Ross Mathematics Program).</p>

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<p>Dear UMTYMP,
what program would you recommend for somebody who went to Ross last year and can’t come back as a counselor this year? PROMYS sounds like it would be too similar to Ross to be worthwhile, and I already went to Awesome Math.</p>

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<p>I think PROMYS would probably be too similar. USA/Canada Mathcamp and Hampshire would be the other obvious alternative choices although admission at least USA/Canada Mathcamp is far from guaranteed. This probably depends a lot on the individual student. If you PM me with who you are (or your son is; it’s hard to tell if the account belongs to a student or parent) I can provide you with more helpful advice.</p>

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<p>Also there’s a Facebook group for students coming to Ross this summer <a href=“https://www.facebook.com/groups/486415231407625/[/url]”>https://www.facebook.com/groups/486415231407625/&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@UMTYMP student do you know which program between Ross and PROMYS is considered more prestigious by universities?</p>

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<p>I would say they are about equally prestigious.</p>

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<p>How do Ross and PROMYS compare in prestige to SUMaC?</p>

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<p>SUMaC might be a little less prestigious. Honestly, it doesn’t really matter though. If you admitted to all of these other factors like what kind of camp you want, when the camp is and cost (more money is always good) are far important than small differences in prestige.</p>

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<p>^UMTYMP is right – these programs all vary but any one would be good. That said, I do think Ross stands just a bit above the rest. Ross is “the” math program that PROMYS was modeled after, and at 8 weeks long, is a real commitment. </p>

<p>Along with PROMYS, Texas Honors Summer Mathcamp (HSMC) was also modeled after Ross and is 6 weeks, but is a different model in that encourages participation over 2 summers, where students research math research methodology first summer and undertake research with a mentor/professor in the second summer. Its participants have done well in various research competitions.</p>

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<p>For what it’s worth Ross is now 6 weeks although I think Ross is still slightly more intense than other camps. Whether that something that is desirable to you or not is a personal preference.</p>

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<p>Can the problem sets be solved with sufficient effort, even if one isn’t experienced in number theory?</p>

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<p>Sufficient effort and time. The vast majority of participants have little to no experience with number theory before coming to Ross.</p>