The Semi-Definitive Ross Updated

Pre-College Issues Summer Programs
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<p>I wrote this last year about the Ross program and much has stayed the same since then. I’ve decide to repost this with updates because some things have changed and the application is coming out soon so there will probably be increased interest in this in the near future. This is cross-posted from AoPS as well.</p>

<p>General Updates: The biggest change is that the program will be six weeks instead of eight this summer. The change is occurring because Ohio State is changing its academic calendar so Ross needs to be out of the dorms by the beginning of August. I’m not sure how this will affect the program other than less material will be covered and the program will be somewhat cheaper. The other important changes would be the change in hours of the student union food options and the prohibition on using library computers. Two years ago, the food options in the student union, which is generally considered to have the best food, were open all seven days. Last year it was closed on weekends and you had to eat at the inferior north commons during the weekends. Additionally, two years ago we were allowed to use the computers in the Science & Engineering Library. Last year we were not. I do not know what will happen next year but my guess would be is that it will be like last year. I have corrected some typos throughout the document. I added some additional comments throughout the document and marked them with [NEW: _____]. I would also welcome comparative experiences from anyone who went to PROMYS particularly if they’ve been to Ross as well. I’m also happy to answer any questions you may have.</p>

<p>Over the past year I've posted a lot about my experience at Ross last summer both on the site and at CC as UMTYMP student. Given that the responses are in like 8 threads on two sites I've decided to try and collect all my responses in one thread. This will also be posted on college confidential.</p>

<p>From the 2010 Ross thread on college confidential

shushugah, I don't think it makes sense to compare the camps from best to worst. The camps cater towards different interests. For example, if you want to spend 8 weeks doing math almost constantly Ross is probably the best choice. But if you want to do things that aren't math related Ross isn't as good of a choice. From what I've heard HCiSSM places a large emphasis on its inside jokes and having fun. Awesome Math seems very geared towards competitions. Mathcamp seems to focus on various interesting subjects of math. Ross and PRMOYS are both entirely number theory. Another consideration is whether you prefer to work alone or in groups. At Ross working in groups is generally looked down upon. Often times at Ross you might spend hours or even days working alone on one particular problem. My understanding is that the doesn't really happen at other camps. While spending 8 days on one problem like I did at Ross last year might simulate actual research it wouldn't be very helpful in terms of math competitions.</p>

<p>In terms of instructors, I'm only familiar with Ross. The instructors are good but most of the learning you do by yourself anyways so they're not that important.</p>

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<p>Glad to have helped. At Ross, there is an hour of lecture each day and 3 days a week there is a 1 hour seminar. The lectures generally either explain new concepts, explore interesting tangents, or will go over old problem sets. The seminars are run by different people and some of them explore more tangential stuff like set theory while others focus on discussions of problems from the problem sets. Another important thing to note is that you work at your own pace. Oftentimes, a lecture will go over a proof from an old problem set so if you're going at a fast pace you'll have proved it by yourself but if you're going slower they'll give you the proof sometimes. </p>

<p>From the 2011 Ross thread on college confidential</p>

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<p>The facilities are pretty decent. Our dorm building last year was pretty old but the dorm rooms themselves were nice and had a bedroom with bunk beds, a study room, and a bathroom. There was some communal rooms in the dorm where a lot of people would hang out. Although I never went to the athletic center, I heard it was of excellent quality. The student center where most people ate is also very new. Sets can either be done alone or in groups of people of like 2-3 people although there are no hard rules regarding this. You certainly would be able to work with your roommate as long as both of you pulled your own weight but not nobody will force you to work with them or anyone else for that matter.
[NEW: We were in the same dorm last year and it’s getting worse. There were some problems with the dorm that didn’t really affect things. Hopefully we will be in a different dorm this summer.]


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<p>@kgppra053420 Ross is pretty strict about not letting you bring laptops. If you have a specific purpose that you'll need one for they may allow you to bring it for that purpose only. However, while it is not exactly true that there are computers in the dorm, you can go to the campus library to use computers. Although the counselors will be unhappy if you spend too much time using the computers, you will be able to use them for pretty much whatever you want to do.
[NEW: Counselors will be unhappy if you spend any time using computers at the library. Additionally, you can’t really use them as they now require passwords which you won’t have. If you have an actual need to use one you will be able too though.]


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<p>You will probably initially be a bit behind but you should be able to catch up pretty quickly if you are well prepared. Some people came late last year and it certainly didn't affect them by the end of the summer. I am not positive that they will send you the work you miss but I've heard that other places and would think that it is probably true.</p>

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<p>The Ross program gives a list of course topics here: The Ross Mathematics Summer Program for high school students, held on The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio. I wouldn't worry about looking like an idiot due to lack of talent. Ross will only accept people who will be able to do decently well if they work. The people who do the worst at Ross are without exception those who are too lazy to work hard. I wouldn't recommend studying number theory before coming to Ross; you'll do more than enough number theory at Ross. However, if you want to prepare for Ross I would recommend working on proof writing. I think you'd be better off studying something like logic or set theory before coming to Ross.</p>

<p>Ross will not allow you to bring a laptop for gaming. Although playing games on library computers is technically prohibited and will make the counselors like you less, plenty of people do it anyways and they won't actually stop you.
[NEW: No gaming anymore due to prohibition on using library computers discussed above.]
People spend wildly varying amounts of time on the problem sets. Some people might only spend a couple of hours a day on math although those people don't do that well. Others will spend like 12 hours a day every day on problem sets. I think it takes the average Ross student 2-3 days to do a set although there is wide variation. You can work in groups or by yourself. Although it is kinda frowned upon if you come up with the solutions with other people it is not prohibited and it is certainly acceptable to bounce ideas off other people. People at Ross are on about every schedule imaginable. Some people work in the morning and afternoon and relax in the evening. Personally, my schedule was roughly like this
9 AM wake up and go to classes
10-11 AM after classes have lunch
12 PM go back to the dorm and take a nap
4 PM wake up and either work or go to the library to use computers
6 PM dinner
7 PM -4 AM work on problem sets
4 AM go to bed. Every week there is a frisbee game and some weeks there is another scheduled activity. For the most part though, free time is yours to use as you wish. Some people like to go the gym or hang out. You can also take a break more or less whenever you want as long as you remain productive. </p>

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<p>Students are not allowed off campus without a counselor. However, there is a CVS on the far side of campus and counselors routinely take people to the closer one as well. There is a also a university bookstore on campus but I think those are only two place you'll have easy access to. There is a movie theater near campus but I don't think students are normally allowed to go there. Essentially, there are 5 major rules at Ross:
1. Get problem sets done at a reasonable rate
2. Don't leave campus without a counselor
3. Be in the dorms after dark
4. Go to the 1-2 hours of classes a day.
5. Don't possess prohibited items such as laptops.
Other than those 5 rules, your behavior at Ross is more or less unrestricted. </p>

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<p>There are no classes, so most people sleep in. You're expected to work on math for part of the time but the rest of the time is free. I guess at Ross the line between free time and math time is very blurred. Some camps might be like 4-6 work on math and then 6-8 free time but at Ross other than for classes all the time is free but you're expected to get stuff done. There were certainly weekends where I was on set [at Ross you're said to be on set if you've finished all the problem sets handed out so far. in the beginning there are typically a small group of people on set which shrinks until more or less everyone is no longer on set] and spent little to no time during math. Even if you are never on set, you could probably take a day or two off from math if you really wanted to.</p>

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<p>I'll be coming back as a junior counselor. I'm not sure if you're allowed to use all the athletic facilities but I know you're allowed to go the main gym center. I think some people played tennis but I'm not sure. I assume you'd be allowed to bring a racket but again I'm not really sure. To be honest, I never used the athletic facilities although I think almost everyone else did. </p>

<p>So my friend tells me you're allowed to use 'Everything but rock wall, basically'.
[NEW: I actually went to the athletic facilities once last summer. They’re really nice and you’re allowed to use them but you must resist the temptation to spend too much time there or you will invoke the wrath of the counselors.]
From the thread PROMYS, ROSS, or mathcamp on art of problem solving</p>

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<p>think nikeballa96 describes Mathcamp and PROMYS pretty accurately but isn't as familiar with Ross. I went to Ross last summer and will return this summer as a junior counselor. Another important difference between the camps is how much time is spent learning techniques and theorems compared to how much time is spent proving theorems. My understanding is that Mathcamp is more like a regular math class in this regard and that classes due to their short length just go over the major results. At Ross however you'll spend most of your time coming up with proofs. I think PROMYS is somewhere in between in that every day you try to prove some theorems and then you get solutions at the end of the day. I would agree that if you're into competition math then go to Mathcamp. If you want to focus on number theory than either PROMYS or Ross. I would say go to PROMYS if you care about having fun but go to Ross if you want to truly learn math as the longer and more intensive experience allows you to come up with some really deep ideas.
[NEW: Some of the counselors last summer have previously been at PROMYS. You don’t actually receive solutions at the end of every day but instead you move on anyways. Near the end of PROMYS I think people typically focus on 1 or 2 themes that build on each other but I’m not really sure.]


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<p>Maybe this is just my skewed perspective but I'm not sure PROMYS is just as intense as Ross. For one Ross is about 2 weeks longer than PROMYS which is something to consider. Maybe I am mistaken but I was under the impression that at PROMYS every day you get a problem set, work on it and then at the end of the day go over it with your counselor. Maybe this is wrong but at PROMYS is everyone working the same set? At Ross you spend as much time as it takes to solve all the problems on the set which can is some cases be more than a week. This leads to by the end of camp some people being on set 30 and others on set 10.
I agree that both are overall at the same level and have similar levels of students. I think there are stylistic differences between the camps though as some people from PROMYS have talked about spending time exploring Boston. I'm sure that's what some people want to spend their summer doing but that's not what people at Ross do.
[NEW: See previous new comment. I maintain that Ross is slightly more intense than PROMYS but only mildly. The Ross counselors who had previously gone to PROMYS agreed with this sentiment too.]
From the thread PROMYS and Ross on art of problem solving


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<p>For a general overview of the two programs, you should look at each program's individual thread and the thread comparing Mathcamp, PROMYS, and Ross. Ross and PROMYS are actually pretty similar as PROMYS was created to be like Ross. Here are some differences though
1. Ross is 8 weeks and PROMYS is 6 weeks. This allows you to do considerably more math at Ross but at the cost of more of your summer. I think the programs charge similar amounts of money so Ross is considerably cheaper per day.
2. Ross is Columbus, Ohio and PROMYS is in Boston. Although Columbus, Ohio has to be one of the most boring places in the US, the lack of interesting surroundings helps you focus on math. I heard at PROMYS people explore Boston which may be exciting but probably does not encourage doing math.
3. At Ross, first years are not allowed to bring laptops. I think PROMYS allows first years to bring laptops. I can imagine that laptops would significantly cut down on mathematical productivity although they would allow you to play more games. At Ross you can still use computers in the library but you have to be in the dorms after dark. At Ross you can also get yelled out for playing computer games. I do not know the policy for this at PROMYS.
4. At Ross first years focus pretty much exclusively on the number theory problem sets. According to the PROMYS thread, some first years at PROMYS do some kind of research thing which does not seem directly related to the number theory problem sets.
5. At Ross you work at your own pace so different people can be working on very different stuff at any given time. By the end of the camp, the number of sets people have done resembles a bell curve. The top students are usually on sets 25-30 (there are 31 sets and typically one student every 2-3 years finishes all the sets). the good students are on sets 20-25, the average students on sets 15-20, and the lazy students fail to finish 15. At Ross if you do something wrong on a set you end up redoing the problem.
I'm not entirely sure how PROMYS works so if someone who went there can correct me if I'm wrong about this that's be great but I think at PROMYS you get a problem set every day similar to Ross but then you go over it with your counselor at the end of the day. I think this means that at PROMYS everyone is on roughly the same set and if you don't solve a problem you'll eventually get a solution for it.</p>

<p>In conclusion, I think at Ross you'll end up doing more math while at PROMYS you'll end up doing more other stuff.</p>

<p>If you have questions that aren't answered in any of these posts feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer them.</p>

<p>[NEW: See previous new comments on PROMYS. Ross is no longer 8 weeks so that difference no long matters. Ross is now somewhat cheaper than PROMYS though. I heard first years are not allowed laptops at PROMYS but I’m not sure how strictly that’s enforced.]</p>

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<p>Over in last year’s thread mathdork shared some more insight into how things work at PROMYS

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<p>Hi, thank you so much for all the information, it was incredibly helpful! I’m a rising sophomore and will be applying to the 2012 Ross program, but I’m unsure about my chances of getting in. Could you please answer a couple of my questions? Thanks so much in advance!</p>

<p>1) In general, how competitive is admissions to the program? Do you have an estimate of what percent of applicants are accepted?
2) Obviously it’s better to apply sooner rather than later, but is the end of February/early March okay, or too early?</p>

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<p>I’m not entirely sure how hard to get in. You need to show some mathematical ability but don’t need to be a mathematical superstar or anything. What is important is your potential to learn math not what you already know. I believe the application quiz is the most important part of the application. I think something like 40% of applicants were accepted last year. That doesn’t mean much though without knowing the strength of the applicant pool though and unfortunately I don’t think anyone on CC knows that. I don’t think any time is too early to apply as long as you’ve spent enough time on the application problems. If you have other questions I’d be happy to answer them as well.</p>

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<p>If there are any students who have been admitted already and are planning on attending, there is a facebook group, Ross Math Camp 2012 that you can join.</p>

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<p>Even though it’s an open group, Ross Math Camp 2012 isn’t coming up in searches but you can hopefully find it by URL <a href=“https://www.facebook.com/groups/348976258480472/[/url]”>https://www.facebook.com/groups/348976258480472/&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Thanks UMTYMP student this was really helpful!</p>

<p>Now in response to your private message to me (I prefer doing it here as it is easier and can maybe help others in the future)</p>

<p>Yes thank you! However, there is something else that I wanted to ask. I am in the exact same situation as xanthosis112 was a year ago. I’m planning to apply to a few math programs and also the cosmos science camp in the UCs for summer 2013. However, as I am only in 9th grade I am sort of unsure as what to do. I want to apply to several so that I will hopefully have something to do in summer but the same goes for the next three summers.</p>

<p>I guess my real question is: can you re-apply after being rejected, or, it accepted, can you chose deferred entry for next year or at least politely decline and re-apply next year as it it were your first year?</p>

<p>Thank you again</p>

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<p>Glad this was helpful!</p>

<p>You can definitely reapply if you have been rejected before. I’m not entirely sure about the last two. I think you would probably be able to defer your acceptance although you would have to talk the people who actually run the program. At the very least I can’t imagine they would not allow you to reapply in future years.</p>