Am I better off going into psychology than law?

Graduate School
1

<p>I've been going back and forth from law to psych since middle school. When I entered college, I started doing psych, got antsy, switched to polisci, dropped out, and now I'm finishing a paralegal certificate program at a CC. I'm transferring to a 4-year this fall and I was going to major in philosophy and (hopefully) go to law school, but the law school horror stories thread got to me and now I'm considering psychology again. </p>

<p>The thing is, I was told that if I wanted to go into psych, I need to decide NOW (before starting my next semester) considering I need a lot more classes to finish with a psych B.A. I also need to start looking into research programs. I can always apply to law school with a psych major, as an alternative.</p>

<p>The thing is, I like law much, much more. Are there really more job options in psychology than there are in law? Will it be worth it to switch?</p>

2

<p>If you like law a lot more, do law. Both law and psychology (i’m guessing you want to do clinical psychology) have problems with getting a job. However, psychology is in a worse spot because clinical psychologists do not make very much considering how hard the training (5 years phd plus 1 year internship) is and how competitive it is. (average clinical psych PhD program acceptance rate is 10-15%) So if you do not absolutely love psychology, I would not pursue it.</p>

3

<p>There are JD/PhD programs. You might look into those. Alternatively, some people get their PhD and then do law school at night. I almost did that, but decided against it. However, there are opportunities in Forensic Psychology. Good luck!</p>

4

<p>If you want law, do it right and try to get into a t14. The interesting thing about law is that it is almost all about the numbers. Keep your gpa at 3.7+ and give yourself 4-6 months and 2 hours per day to study for the lsat.</p>

5

<p>It is amusing (in a sad way) that the employment prospects for fresh JD’s are bad enough to make you think a PhD in psychology is a good backup plan. Seriously, getting a PhD in anything is a terrible idea if you just want a job. Getting a PhD/JD also sounds like a relative waste of time: if you want to practice law, get a JD, and if you want to do research, get a PhD.</p>

<p>The only other comment I have is that “liking law” has pretty much nothing to do with being a lawyer (although this is all second-hand from internet forums, and I’m sure you’ve seen the same threads I have!). “Liking law” doesn’t mean you’ll like boring paperwork, ridiculously long hours, no social life, constant pressure to get a promotion or get out, etc. etc. Enjoying the study of law probably means you’d have much more interest in a political science PhD or something like that, although it does sound like you’ve tried that.</p>

<p>Best of luck in whatever you decide, though. Find something you enjoy doing and do it!</p>

6

<p>“The only other comment I have is that “liking law” has pretty much nothing to do with being a lawyer (although this is all second-hand from internet forums, and I’m sure you’ve seen the same threads I have!). “Liking law” doesn’t mean you’ll like boring paperwork, ridiculously long hours, no social life, constant pressure to get a promotion or get out, etc. etc.”</p>

<p>It does, actually, lol. . . . I love being alone all day surrounded with nothing but books and paperwork. I hate people, I never leave the house. I love pressure and deadlines. It’s why I got a paralegal degree. But I won’t be living in this state when I finish my BA, so that will be useless anyway. So, instead of wasting another 2 years getting a new paralegal degree once I move, I might as well take 3 years to go to law school.</p>

<p>Darthvegan, I’m trying my best. I was told if it’s not a t14, I might as well not go, move back to California, and become a paralegal. And I can understand why, with how competitive the market is, why take someone from UC Davis if there’s a candidate from Duke? Not to mention connections a student would make. </p>

<p>Jym, if only I could look at dead bodies.</p>

<p>Cogneuro, I didn’t know things were as bad for psych as they are with law. If that’s the case, it’s not worth it. Extra time and money spent for the same opportunity level, not worth it. </p>

<p>Things like this make me want to give up and become a homemaker.</p>

7

<p>@ OP some strong regional schools are worthwhile, but not many. For example I got to UH, and they have great employment success 9 months out. That said, the starting average pay is down to 80,000. Something to think about, but if you want national reach for employment and 160K a year, T14 is the only real choice. But you really gotta keep that GPA up at 3.7+</p>

8

<p>What your career services center states is the average salary is probably not true. I have friends graduating from UCLA who say that $80,000/year starting is too optimistic an average for them.</p>

<p>Getting ANY job (not just big-law) with a J.D. outside the T14 is difficult right now. Your Paralegal GPA will be factored into your LSAC GPA. Hopefully you got as close to a 4.3 as you thought you could have. The numbers for admitted students at top programs have been increasing steadily for years. Shoot for as high an LSAT as you can. Check out lawschoolnumbers.com for admitted stats.</p>

<p>A Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology is a crapshoot if you don’t get into a program with a history of good APA-internship placements. The entire field is being outsourced to Clinical Social Workers and Masters-level psychologists because they’re cheaper and most hiring boards feel they’re adequate for any type of CBT treatment. Hiring Ph.D.'s has been slowing as of late. If you really want to be a Psychologist, seems like the only sure way to guarantee your job is to go the M.D. route and get into Psychiatry.</p>

<p>Forensic psychology is NOT the psychology of dead people. Forensic psychology is the psychological study of the legal system, criminology, and law in general. It’s a worthwhile venture if you can get funded into one of the Masters Programs offering it (the only doctoral programs are from degree mills). [Forensic</a> psychology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_psychology]Forensic”>Forensic psychology - Wikipedia)</p>

9

<p>“That said, the starting average pay is down to 80,000.”</p>

<p>LOL–don’t become an in-house corporate (eCommerce) copywriter by any means. After 30-plus years in the ad biz, I still haven’t cracked $80K. (But that’s partly because I made certain career choices for the sake of personal happiness–e.g., leaving the crazy ad-agency world, focusing on my family, etc.).</p>

<p>I dunno. $80K for starters sounds good to me. I guess Older Son knows what he’s doing as he plans on law school after college.</p>

10

<p>I would be supper happy with 80K out of school too. Even if I get into a top sociology PhD. program I will be lucky to make 50K in my first few years. But people with law school dreams sometimes have 160K expectations, so I wanted to make that clear. If I went to law school, id be happy with a 50K a year job in public service law, and a good loan repayment program. But that’s me.</p>

11

<p>Oyama, that little bit about forensic psychology might be the best information I hear all day. It combines my loves, you say? And there is actually hope of getting a job, Jym? Wow, I might have come across a miracle. Thank you!</p>

<p>You guys need to stop worrying about my GPA! It’s doing fine and getting better. My paralegal is a 3.75 (should finish with a 3.8) and my all-around is a 3.65 (damn econ and art appreciation). My psych GPA is a 3.85. One criminology class had a 4. I have plenty of time to bring those up, too-- I have 2-3 more years of undergrad and my grades have an upward trend. I think I can finish with a 4.0 if I can ace a few weighted honors courses.</p>

<p>And . . . I would love $80,000 a year. I’m sorry if a salary like that offends some people here. But . . . I’m used to 1/4 that. I’m not chasing luxury, just enough to live comfortably.</p>

12

<p>There are lots of ways to get into the forensic psych field-- there are custody evaluations, competence evaluations, work in conjunction with personal injury litigation, etc. It takes a stronger constitution than many psychologists have to practice in the legal arena, but it can be a lot of fun.</p>

13

<p>The $80,000 figure was mentioned as being too optimistic for someone from UCLA, meaning that even they are expecting below that. Thus, if you do not get into one of those top schools, your salary would likely be substantially less provided you even find a job. </p>

<p>I don’t know anything about law school, I am just clarifying what that poster was trying to say.</p>

14

<p>Exactly what I meant. Thanks for the reiteration.</p>

15

<p>Also, to the people saying they would be happy with much less than that, remember that law school is VERY expensive. I would assume the average debt is around $100K, and if you are making much less than $80K, you are going to have a fairly hard time paying that off with interest accruing. Now, seeing as the field is experiencing some difficulties right now (from what I have read), you have a messy situation on your hands if you cannot earn above a certain amount. You could calculate out the percentages and see how long it would take to pay off the debt depending on the salary. I am not saying this should be a deciding factor for you, but it might help give you a more realistic idea of what will be necessary to maintain an appropriate quality of life.</p>

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<p>@ Mace, I said I would be happy with much less than that if I was in public service law and in a generous repayment program like the ones many of the top programs offer. </p>

<p>Also, don’t forget about IBR.</p>

17

<p>Is most of the law school debt from federal loans then? I don’t believe IBR applies to private loans. </p>

<p>I didn’t factor in the repayment programs, but I was mainly talking about problems if you were to go out of the top programs (because the issue of jobs/money was introduced). I know a handful of people who originally aimed for the top 14 but ended up nowhere near that, so it was merely advice to think about cost/benefit in that situation. The top programs are a completely different story.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

18

<p>Well, federal graduate loans have no limit, but will only cover tuition. You will still need to borrow to cover living expenses. The bulk of law school cost is from tuition though, and that portion will be eligible for IBR if stafford graduate loans are used to pay for it.</p>

<p>Dropping out is a very valid point though, law school is quite rigorous and many people don’t make it through.</p>

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<p>@ Xdarth</p>

<p>Ah ok, that makes sense.</p>

20

<p>My comment about the salary was in response to Darthvegan’s original comment about starting salary being “down to” $80,000. Anyway, let’s assume someone in my situation goes get a job at that rate within the grace period:</p>

<p>After taxes, $80,000 only goes down to $60,000, which is $5,000 per month. That leaves at least 2-3,000 I could pay off every month, if I really felt the need to. Which I might, actually, I like paying off debts asap.</p>

<p>$100,000 of debt paid off (with interest) within 10 years is about $1,500 per month. The only way I see someone not paying that off with $60,000/ year take-home pay is if they’re in a horrible golden-handcuffs lifestyle. I mean, I live in a decent part of San Diego and my exspenses (rent, bills, groceries, animal food) never go over $2,000 a month.</p>

<p>I expect my debt to be closer to $140,000 after graduation (plus interest), should I choose law school, and if I give up my current job to do so. So that brings my numbers to somewhere around $1,800 per month. </p>

<p>I mean, it’s a high number to pay off month after month, but it’s very doable on a $80,000 ($60,000) salary. The only thing to really, really be worried about is being laid off. But there are hardship deferments. </p>

<p>I’m not using these numbers as an excuse to waste that much money on law school if it’s not worth it in the long run. I’m just trying to put an $80,000 salary into perspective after I did out the math for myself. I might not even go to law school. So who knows, really? Actually, the more I dig into forensic psychology, the more I like it. Seems like there are more grant options, too!</p>