Ambitious senior undergrad engineer in need of career advice

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>I'm new to the board, so I'll start out by introducing myself and giving a little bit of a background. I'm going into my senior year as an undergraduate Mechanical Engineering major from a reasonably reputable engineering school (my sig probably gives this away). I've done fairly well as an undergrad, and have a fairly respectable list of interesting/compelling work experiences that I have accumulated throughout the last 5-6 years of my life. I'm preparing to graduate in a year, and I'm really beginning to turn my attention and focus towards "what happens next?". That question is the reason I'm posting on this board; I'm looking for some career advice.</p>

<p>I have a great deal of ambition, and am intent upon making myself a success. I firmly believe that more education is the ticket to eventually climbing the corporate ladder, but I already know that job experience is desireable and often times crucial to compliment whatever graduate degree/degrees I aquire over time. I have decided to take the FE exam this year, and hopefully spend the first 4 or 5 years after school working towards a PE. I think that will provide a strong "work experience" with a company, and will allow me to put in those needed 4 or 5 years of work experience while still working towards something worth achieving. After the P.E., I think I will probably want to consider more schooling, preferrably with some employer at least helping with the educational bills. This is where my questions really come into play.</p>

<p>I'm keeping an open-mind, and giving consideration to graduate schooling in any/all of the following:
a) M.S. ________ Engineering (whether it be Mechanical, Aero, Nuclear, or Industrial, depending on what kind of work I aquire after graduation...)
b) M.B.A. with some technical/math spin on it, such as operations research, information systems, or even finance
c) J.D. specializing in some type of corporate or patent law.</p>

<p>or some combination there in...</p>

<p>This is where I'm looking for advice. I want to be a success. I enjoy my technical coursework, and don't regret my engineering degree at all, but I also think I would enjoy the technical management combination that one would hope to achieve with the B.S. engineering and M.B.A. Perhaps the J.D. could open up some unique doors within the corporate community. I could even see some combination of these degrees over an extended period of time prove to be useful. Perhaps, if I am so ambitious, an invitation into the boardroom...</p>

<p>Does anybody have any words of wisdom that I could use to help begin to shape some career strategies? As you can see, I'm wide-open to suggestions, and just looking for a little advice...</p>

<p>thank you in advance for any guidance you can offer.</p>

2

<p>How about one of those dual MBA + Master's of Science in engineering programs like the MIT LFM program or the Northwestern Kellogg MMM program?</p>

<p>I talk about them at length here. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=73934%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=73934&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

3

<p>I think LFM is for persons with experience in the industry already.</p>

4

<p>ALL top MBA progams are basically made for people with industry experience. ALL of them. Yes, every year, there are a tiny handful people who manage to get into a top-flight B-school with zero experience, but I wouldn't hold my breath trying to replicate them. The average age of entering students at the top schools is anywhere from 27-29 and the average entering work experience is around 4-6 years.</p>

5

<p>psu......you have your bases covered & all choices listed are great. My advice....let your developing opinions during your first year or 2 of work shape your direction.</p>

<p>JD option is the most unconventional, although I know some who have done it......some go litigation (good techies can get into highly technical court cases), and some go patent/intel property.</p>

<p>Based upon the tone of your ambitious self-description, I'd bet you'll end up on the management side, hence an MBA track would work best. Doesn't mean you shouldn't first become a top-knotch practicing engineer....you should.</p>

<p>I went through a combo executive masters eng/business program at Penn....it was wonderful & this type of prgram may be a good fit for you:
<a href="http://www.seas.upenn.edu/profprog/emtm/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.seas.upenn.edu/profprog/emtm/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you have an employer who loves you, they may pay all or some of this hefty bill (~$100K).</p>

<p>PS.....I work with plenty of nittany lion engineers.....sometimes a bit rowdy, but a fine group of engineers.</p>

<p>pps....DEFINITELY get your PE, no matter what track you take</p>

6

<p>Suggest you take all the "pre-requisite" exams for anything you might want (LSAT, GRE,GMAT) this year, so long as they will be "good" for several years. That way these won't influence your schedule for when to leave your firm, if that's what you decide to do.</p>

<p>Start working, and see how it goes. After three or so years, if things are going well for you, you might want to stay. If not, change firms or go to grad school, as you see fit at that time.</p>

7

<p>Thank you to all who replied. Your input is very much appreciated. And yes, I have already looked into the joint M.S./M.B.A. programs at a few schools. While I do think that that could be a wonderful solution, I do have a few worries, most notibly that I'm not sure you can complete one of these on a part-time basis. I really think I'd like to work on whatever graduate degree or degrees I earn part-time, with the financial aide of an employer helping to pay the bills.</p>

<p>So, if it is true that I can't work on them both at the same time on a part-time basis, I do feel that it might be a positive to have them both, so that means one at a time. It is my gut-feeling, with admittedly NO FACTUAL INFORMATION to back this up, that getting an M.S. BEFORE the M.B.A. is the way to go. My initial feeling is that once you get that M.B.A. and move into management, no employer is going to be very willing or open to helping pay for more technical knowledge. Does anybody have any opinions/suggestions on this?</p>

<p>Like I said, I really do like the idea of doing a joint program... I just can't seem to find much of anything to suggest that that can be done on a part-time basis, which is what I'm really interested in.</p>

<p>Thanks again everyone. I found many of those comments already left to be helpful.</p>

8

<p>psu.....the Penn EMTM program I posted is part time, that is just about everyone has a full-time job..... the "executive" format is made for working people. It meets every other weekend, and one can go "full-time" meaning Fridays & Saturdays for 2 years or go "part-time" Saturdays only for 4 years. I did about 1/2 an MBA at night prior to joing the Penn EMTM program & found it just too hard to balance work travel & family doing night classes....the executive format allows one to schedule out blocks of time & this made it much easier for me. If I was traveling, I'd just fly into Philly. People would travel in from many places across the US as well as some abroad for the weekends. Down side is that they only accept students with a certain amount of experience & its pricey.</p>

9

<p>My apologies, Papa, for not noticing the first time around about the part-time potential of the program you mentioned. It certainly does seem like an interesting option.</p>

<p>Do you feel that going a less-common direction like this could be a disadvantage rather than earning a more-traditional M.B.A. and/or M.S.? Of course, the program you mentioned IS from Penn, so I'm sure it's graduates do quite well heh. But in general, do you think that doing something like this that may not be quite as "common" as a more traditional degree like the two I mentioned is a positive, a negative, or a wash - in so long as you've found a strong program with solid technical and business aspects?</p>

<p>And does anybody have any feelings about an M.Eng in comparision to an M.B.A., and how that might fit in with things? It is my gut feeling, again without knowing this for a fact, that a degree like an M.Eng, or something like the EMTM that Papa has mentioned, would work in place of the M.B.A./M.S. combination (ie, a 2-for-1 type of deal). Perhaps this isn't the case. If it is, do you guys think this is or is not a good trade to make (picking up one M.Eng vs. both an M.S. and an M.B.A.). Are the same opportunities generally availaible to someone with an M.Eng, or are some opportunities lost (or at least comprimised) by not pursuing both?</p>

<p>Just wondering how an M.Eng might play into things...</p>

10

<p>Papa:</p>

<p>ps response: A little roudy, are they? Yea, it is true, we do have a tendency to get a lil roudy :)</p>

<p>pps response: That was my thought about the PE. Thank you for confirming my gut feelings. If nothing else, I'm thinking that working towards the PE can serve as that all-important "significant work experience" that I need before applying to graduate school. I don't know how else it might play into things, but based on that alone, I think it makes it worthwhile.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
I have already looked into the joint M.S./M.B.A. programs at a few schools. While I do think that that could be a wonderful solution, I do have a few worries, most notibly that I'm not sure you can complete one of these on a part-time basis. I really think I'd like to work on whatever graduate degree or degrees I earn part-time, with the financial aide of an employer helping to pay the bills.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, well, I should then point out that there are still companies out there that will sponsor its employees to go to a school full-time. Yeah, that's right, FULL-TIME. For example, Intel is sponsoring 4 students in the MIT LFM class of this year, a huge number when you consider that that class consisted of only 48 students. The advantages of being sponsored are very clear - you get paid almost all of your salary (I believe Intel is paying 80% of its salary) while going to school full-time, Intel also covers all living costs+expenses. The most egregiously ridiculous thing that I heard is that those students are still accumulating vacation time, stock options vesting, and seniority while going to LFM, because they are still, technically speaking, Intel employees. I remember one of them telling me how, during her 2-month MIT winter break, she was accumulating Intel vacation days during that break. </p>

<p>Intel is not the only one that sponsors LFM students. Dell, Boeing, Hewlett-Packard, Ford, etc. have also sponsored students. Nor is LFM the only program to which sponsored students go. I know sponsored students that have gone to HBS, Stanford, Wharton, etc. So not only are these students getting their MBA's for free, in many cases, they're earning a salary while doing it. Not a bad financial deal. </p>

<p>Now of course, that's what's good about being sponsored. What's bad about is clear - in the case of the Intel LFM sponsorships, you have to sign an agreement to work at Intel for at least 4 years after you graduate from LFM, or else you have to pay Intel back. Not only that, but I know that it is also true that you don't get a substantial salary raise when you return to Intel (in fact, you may not get a raise at all), because Intel knows that you have to go back, so there's no reason for Intel to offer you more money. Contrast that with a regular (non-sponsored) MBA student that Intel is trying to recruit - Intel knows that this student can go work for somebody else and so Intel has to offer a competitive package. I'm sure the same thing is true of the sponsorships of other companies - you have to agree to be 'locked-in' to the company for a set amount of time.</p>

<p>It is that 'locked-in' nature of the sponsorship that repels people the most about the sponsorship. The fact is, a lot of MBA students at elite B-schools see the MBA (and rightly so) as a means of getting into high-flying fields like investment banking or management consulting. You can't just wake up tomorrow and simply 'decide' that you want to work in MC or IB. If you want to work in those fields, there are really only a couple of opportunities for you to get in - basically, either right after undergrad, or right after getting your MBA. If you don't get in at those times, you'll probably never get in. For this reason, plenty of people that I know that are getting their MBA's that aren't even really interested in MC or IB will interview for those jobs anyway, because they know that if they pass up the opportunity now, they will probably never have that opportunity again. So being sponsored basically means that one of the biggest reasons for getting an MBA in the first place has been extirpated. If you take the Intel sponsorship, then after going back and working for 4 years, you can't then just go to work for Goldman Sachs.</p>

<p>Hence, I know some people who were offered the Intel sponsorship, and refused to take it, because they valued their freedom. The takehome point is that if you take the sponsorship, you have to be sure you want to go back to your sponsoring company. If you don't, you're probably better off not taking the sponsorship. </p>

<p>I'm sure you will have to deal with the same issues if you are a part-time sponsored student. The UPenn EMTM program is not exactly cheap, so if you ask your employer to pay for it, you are probably going to have to sign a sponsorship contract, which will lock you in. Make sure that you can tolerate that. One of the saddest things I have seen are the faces of the sponsored students who see all the career opportunities available to their classmates but not them. Some times they regret their choice so much that they've requested their sponsorship to end. </p>

<p>
[quote]
My initial feeling is that once you get that M.B.A. and move into management, no employer is going to be very willing or open to helping pay for more technical knowledge. Does anybody have any opinions/suggestions on this?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think what is far more accurate is that once you get an MBA, and especially once you get an MBA-type job, you will not want to get more technical knowledge. Hence, it's not the employer who won't pay for the MS, it's that you yourself will not want to get the MS. You will probably find the management/MBA track to be far more interesting and more lucrative than the technical track. You'll therefore probably be pushing your employer to send you to more executive-management training courses than to more technical courses. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Do you feel that going a less-common direction like this could be a disadvantage rather than earning a more-traditional M.B.A. and/or M.S.? Of course, the program you mentioned IS from Penn, so I'm sure it's graduates do quite well heh. But in general, do you think that doing something like this that may not be quite as "common" as a more traditional degree like the two I mentioned is a positive, a negative, or a wash - in so long as you've found a strong program with solid technical and business aspects?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>MBA's are a funny beast because they rely so much on branding. Basically, if you have one of those 'alternate' master's degrees in management instead of an MBA, then you are going to find yourself at a great disadvantage in trying to get those traditional MBA-type jobs like consulting or banking, and you may also find yourself at a disadvantage in getting general management-type jobs. The reason I say that a lot of industries understand what an MBA is, but not too many understand what those alternate-master's degrees are. </p>

<p>Case in point - MITSloan used to never hand out MBA degrees. Instead, the degrees they awarded were the SM (Master's of Science) in Management Science. About 15 years ago, Sloan changed its policy to give its student an option of getting either an MBA or the traditional Sloan SM. Since that year, about 90% of its students have opted for the MBA. The reason was branding - a lot of companies simply didn't understand what an SM in Management Science was, but they did understand what an MBA was. The same sort of thing happened at the Yale School of Management, that used to offer a MPPM (Master's in Public and Private Management) degree, but recently rebranded it to the MBA. Consider the following quote:</p>

<p>"...many Yale students began to feel that nobody really understood what an MPPM was. As such, last year students were allowed to have their MPPM degree labeled as an MPPM or as an MBA. As of the fall 2000, the MPPM is now officially an MBA. Yale did not substantially change the curriculum content. It just changed the name. This demonstrates that at American Universities students can sometimes make a big difference, and it also underscores how important the MBA degree really is."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.intstudy.com/articles/mba4.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.intstudy.com/articles/mba4.htm&lt;/a> </p>

<p>The point is, like it or not, an MBA is a well-understood degree, whereas the alternative management master's degrees are not. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Are the same opportunities generally availaible to someone with an M.Eng, or are some opportunities lost (or at least comprimised) by not pursuing both?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, I would have to argue that some opportunities are lost, especially the 'premier' MBA career choices like banking or consulting. Just speaking of the Penn EMTM program, I would argue that it is probably easier for a Wharton MBA student to get hired at Goldman Sachs than it is for a Penn EMTM student. </p>

<p>Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to steer you one way or another. If you have no interest in getting into consulting or banking, then it probably doesn't matter whether you get an MBA or some other management degree. If you like your employer and you can see yourself working for them for a long time, then getting a degree that allows you to advance in that company may be the best way to go, and the Penn EMTM may well be the best way for you to do that. I'm just throwing out ideas here.</p>

12

<p>how about getting a job and working in it for 1-2 years...and then deciding?</p>

13

<p>psu-- all of sakky's point IMO are dead on.</p>

<p>In my case, the non-tradional masters program (not an MBA....MSE in Penn's EMTM program) was just fine because (1) I wasn't worried about the full MBA branding, as I was already on a management track in a company I liked and it was the knowlege, not the paper that mattered, (2) I didn't mind being an indentured servant because I thought I'd stick with my company, (3) I couldn't afford to have a period of no income at that stage of my life so quitting to do a full-time MBA was not in the picture, (4) the executive style program allows a student to "learn today & apply tomorrow"....a very helpful attribute for accelerating one's management career, and (5) getting an "MSE" (albeit with both Penn SEAS & Wharton on the sheepskin) actually helped the personal credentials (resumes are a major selling point) more than an MBA for my engineering consulting company.</p>

<p>Bottom line is that I received a top notch education, was able to apply it instantaneously, didn't miss a beat on my career path, had the whole thing paid, and bolstered the company's engineering degree depth to boot. I think this startegy will work for someone who was in my position....mid-level manager in a small to mid-sized technical company. (However, many students from larger firms also attended....Merck & Lockheed among others being program sponsors). These sized technical firms IMO tend to value the product/technical side of the credentials game more than business branding, and frankly, a fully branded MBA is not as internally or externally valued as perhaps at some larger technical firms like perhaps Intel or GE.</p>

<p>One other point about the EMTM program.....having mostly students with engineering or technical backgrounds with some mathematical savvy seemed to help attract high quality professors. For instance, my marketing and accounting classes were taught by the respective Wharton department heads.......some high quality instructors needless to say. We got some feedback from a few of these types that some professors liked teaching in the program because the "executive" students were more matured and had plenty of real-world insights to add to class discussions, plus the EMTM students were interested in & could relate to the mathematically driven research that these professors were performing. Don't know if this is the case for other "Management of Technology" programs, but it ended up being a benefit that I hadn't forseen.</p>

<p>So, where do you go?</p>

<p>I'd say first order is to get that first job, & soak in some experience for a year or 2 before you get set for any particular direction. Your peers will have plenty of other opinions on this subject & you will be seeing first hand what the management career path looks like. So try to pick a first job experience in a company that (1) has educational support (ask about their policies & make them give you examples), (2) is big enough to show the diversity of management tracks, and (3) is in a field(s) that might be your calling. 2nd order IMO is to focus on being techically good. Get the experience you need for a PE (if that field typically values the PE, but I'm assuming many ME fiields do), and become known as a technical star. Most technical firms take you from a techie to project manager to administrative/financial manager, but you can't get going there well until you are a good techie first. While you are doing all of this, learn about your company's management, interface where you can respectfully (seasoned managers may initially be reluctant to involve an entry level person, so think of ways to provide value), and continue to shape your opinions on how best to become a manager via experience and education. You'll do just fine.</p>

14

<p>Wow Sakky and Papa. Those must have taken a good deal of time and effort on your parts. I really appreciate your input and effort. I certainly have a much better feel for the "lay of the land", or the cause-and-effect idea's of where each degree/career path will place me.</p>

<p>I really didn't know much of anything about investment banking until now... I never really looked into it. I'm not sure if that's what I want, either... I really like my major, I enjoy engineering, and I think what I would ultimately like to do is get into an engineering management type of role. But who knows, after a few years in the workforce, maybe I'll change my mind and want a career move.</p>

<p>And Papa, I think your last paragraph is exactly what I'm going to do. I certainly have a better idea of all of my options, the way things work in the office, and an idea of how to prepare for my career because of our discussion here.</p>

<p>Thanks again to everyone who provided there input. It is much appreciated.</p>

15

<p>psuKinger,
I've been off these boards for almost a year now, but your question intrigues me. I'm an engineer in my 50s, and I can't agree more with the savvy advice from brothers Sakky and Papa. Wow. What would my life have been like if CC had existed in the 1970s???</p>

<p>Predictions are difficult, as they say, especially about the future. I am not one who thinks highly of MBA programs or degree. I, too, finished about half the coursework toward an MBA. The courses were interesting and useful, but I notice that lots and lots of people have MBAs nowadays.
I opted for an MS in OR, and I'm now going for the PhD in OR. There are very few people who take this track, and I really enjoy the modern math techniques & processes. I guess it's invigorating to see how you can solve problems on a PC that we would crunch and grind on mainframe computers years ago. But I digress...</p>

<p>The JD for an engineer is best combined with a career in patent law, as you implied. This is the option you take if you really don't like the corporate world and management. Of your three choices, I think it would offer the greatest level of prosperity. </p>

<p>As for IB, I fear that it may become a "winner take all" job, where many attempt to succeed, but few reach the summit. Those starting salaries look enticing, but remember, this is New. York. City. Burger prices have commas. </p>

<p>By the way, every company or agency I've worked for will pay for course-work (on your own time) in your field. Some engineering firms won't pay for an MBA, but they will pay for all the stochastic Bayesian finite-element agent-basted mumbo jumbo you want to take!</p>

<p>Cheers,
RB</p>

16

<p>"By the way, every company or agency I've worked for will pay for course-work (on your own time) in your field. Some engineering firms won't pay for an MBA, but they will pay for all the stochastic Bayesian finite-element agent-basted mumbo jumbo you want to take!"</p>

<p>:)</p>