American schools and the "boy" problem

Parents Forum
21

<p>I really can't say if it is just the all male factor at the school my kids attend that makes it comfy for them. It is that, and other things as well. THere are a other all boy highschools in the area that have very unhappy boys. This school happens to have a high student/parent satisfaction factor, and is a good fit for my kids.</p>

<p>I, too, felt that adversity and learning to adjust to be important for kids. They are going to be in uncomfortable situations later in life. But again the actual experience seems to have been the opposite now that I have gone through a couple of cycles of kids finishing up highschool. Kids that have not been stressed out and put through the wringer tend to do better even when they face issues later. Not all. And there are the rare kids who seem to do fine no matter what. But the old adages of gentleness being true strength seem to hold true. It seems obvious in retrospect. The schools and environments where kids are exposed to the rougher things in life are not the ones that have the optimum rates of well adjusted young adults. In real life, things do not necessarily as well as in a well thought out theory. </p>

<p>But I am not advocating a particular path for any particular child or family. Not a child raising guru at all; still learning. Just wanted to share that some of my preconceived ideas though steeped well in theory, just did not pan in in actuality. Single sex schools was one of them</p>

22

<p>Like midmo, I think that a variety of options can work, depending on the student. </p>

<p>Our kids attended a private co-ed elementary and then an all-boys college prep high school. </p>

<p>One benefit of an all boys school is that the boys are not as constrained about trying non athletic activities. The drama department is quite popular (maybe because they import girls for the female roles!), music is big, and there are a ton of other clubs that they might not join at a coed school, i.e. philosophy, French, chess etc. </p>

<p>S1 did not have any trouble with the dating thing in college. He met a lovely girl (from an all-girl high school in another state) and they've been dating for a couple of years.</p>

<p>Sports ARE big, but it's not the end of the world for those who don't play on a team. A downside is that it can be very, very difficult to make the team -- a number of graduates have gone on to professional teams, so the competition is fierce.</p>

<p>The climate is different at a single gender school, imo. I don't know about girls' schools, but at the boys' schools it seems to be a little brusque in some ways -- the boys aren't babied, and are treated like young men with responsibilites. They do have a "big brother" program to help freshmen adapt, so the older boys get a lot of leadership experience.</p>

<p>One comment about the better outcomes; in my experience, single gender schools tend to be private, expensive and test for entrance. The boys at my kids' school tend to be from more affluent families who value education. By definition, anyone who chooses a private school must be concerned about their kids' education. I don't think it's necessarily a fair comparison to the standard coed public high school.&lt;/p>

<p>S1 did not have any trouble with the dating thing in college. He met a lovely girl (from an all girl high school) and they've been dating for a couple of years.</p>

23

<p>My experience is so different from the one reported. Yes, the valedictorian and saluditorian of S's year (he's a frosh) were girls, but three and four were boys. One of those boys went to Princeton. </p>

<p>The varsity academic team was comprised of four boys. The jv team (also seniors -- an unusal year) was also four boys. The girls tried out with the boys, and the team was chosen solely by performance in mock competitions. I guess the boys were more agressive -- got to that buzzer first, or maybe even more knowledgable, I don't know. My S was the classics and literary guy on the team (an endless source of mirth for D because he reads about 1/4 of what she does).</p>

<p>Top boys in his class went to Princeton, Williams, Haverford, UNC (accepted at Northwestern, but he chose UNC). Top girls went to Tufts, Wesleyan, Cornell, Princeton. Not much of a difference.</p>

<p>Perhaps the nature of the community is partly responsible. We live in a NYC exurb, and the public school has sons and daughters of physicians, college professors, and scientists. (Not too many lawyers or those in the financial industry -- we're too far away from NYC, but near Stony Brook and Brookhaven National Labs.) Those are very school intensives professions, and the boys know what it takes to succeed in those professons that their fathers are in and gear themselves accordingly. S's friends want: a PhD in economics; to be doctors; to be research physicists. Come to think of it, the girls want just about the same things.</p>

<p>The boys were a bit more laid back than the girls; the girls had slightly, but ever so slightly, higher GPA's, but the boys had significantly higher SAT scores.</p>

<p>The boys took a more laid back approach to completing assignments, but the medals at the end of the year were equally distributed. My S won the English award; a girl won the math award, just for an example. A boy won the Latin award; a girl won the bio award, but a boy won the physics award. You get the idea.</p>

<p>Edit: I hadn't read the above post when I began this. I see that we have the same idea.</p>

24

<p>My S and D's experiences were much like Mythmom's, except the school was much larger. Both classes had guys for vals, after that the top ten split evenly. Most top guy students were into non-guy stereotypical stuff, like band, chorus, theater, and some but not all did sports. The same could be said of the top girl students. I really didn't see any gender split.</p>

<p>My D had (has) a lot of close guy friends, and would have floundered in an all-girl environment. It was definitely girls who provided any misery she experienced as a young teen, not guys. My S had (has) friends who are girls, and (to be a little stereotypical) they are definitely a civilizing influence.</p>

<p>I think the sooner that each learns to deal with each other, the better. I do realize that for some, for whatever reason, this might not work, so it's good if they can find other options, but I'd hate to see mixed classes eliminated.</p>

25

<p>I think my son had a fabulous education in a big public high school. The jury is out for my daughter, as to whether it will be a good setting for her. I don't think this is related to gender at all, but more to personality type. Some kids can access what they need in whatever setting; some can't.</p>

<p>My son has always had oodles of girls for friends, and is not a sporty boys' boy type. He wouldn't have liked all that boy comraderie, high-fiving of an all guys school. My daughter might like all girls..I don't know, but I am apt to strongly consider the co-ed public first (since I like having a variety of learners, a variety of types, both genders, etc), and then look at the other options by default, as opposed to the other way around.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
He wouldn't have liked all that boy comraderie, high-fiving of an all guys school.

[/quote]
I don't think that this is a true representation of an all-boy school. This stereotype is not descriptive of my son's school. The atmosphere is different than a coed school, but it's not all "go team."</p>

<p>At my son's school, the dress code is probably best described as "business casual," and the kids are expected to treat school as seriously as they would employment. Dress pants, dress shirt or school polo, ties and jackets on occasion. The focus on academics is what would strike any visitor -- there is a clear sense of purpose that pervades the hallways. By the way, kids are in class from 8:00 until 2:30. It's not a boarding school, so there is still plenty of time in the day to socialize with girls. It's just that class time is focused on learning, not flirting.</p>

27

<p>By accident, sort of, I had almost exactly the education recommended: Co-ed through 4th grade, all-boys school through 9th, abroad in a co-ed program for 10th, and returned to my all-boys school just as it went co-ed for 12th grade (with a few girls in my classes in 11th). After experiencing co-ed education in 10th grade -- and seeing other boys from single-sex schools having a hard time dealing with girls -- I would not have returned to my original school had it not gone co-ed. I was convinced, at least then, that single-sex education in high school was a terrible mistake.</p>

<p>My mother, who was a teacher at the school, did a long-term study of the effects of co-education there. The general picture was that co-education was a better deal for the boys than for the girls. On the girls' side, there were real winners and losers from co-education: the girls who did best in the co-ed school were not generally the ones who had been most successful at their single-sex school. (My school had acquired a failing girls' school lock, stock and nuns.)</p>

<p>Neither of my kids -- one of each -- would have considered single-sex education at any point. My daughter would have done fine in a girls' school; she barely talked to boys, anyway. But she thought it was interesting and challenging to have them around, and to be reminded that they exist and have a somewhat different value system. My son would have shrivelled and died without girls around. His friends were equally split. (He spent all his summers at an all-boys' camp, however, and loved the annual "vacation from girls".)</p>

<p>Their school, by the way, is like the one mythmom describes, although much bigger and not as close: the top academic and leadership group split almost exactly evenly between boys and girls, girls doing math and science (and arguing loudly about calculus and physics), indistinguishable college outcomes. One of my son's close friends was clearly a girls' school kind of girl, and indeed chose to go to Smith: quiet, not a flirter, artistic, field hockey player, solid. She graduated second in their class, with tons of accolades.</p>

28

<p>Following his eighth-grade year we considered an all-boys high school for my high ability but somewhat slacker son. We stayed with the co-ed public school system because it offered many more music opportunities for him, including marching band, which he loved, and because his friends were a great group and we did not want to risk losing his belonging to such a solid social network.</p>

<p>At the beginning of junior year he took up with a very high-performing young woman in his class (at her initiative, but he was happy to oblige ;) ). They have now been dating over a year and I have turned over his "management" to her LOL. Whether it is his gradual maturation, her very focused and achievement-oriented example, or his wish not to let her down (perhaps all of that), he is finally becoming the student he should have been all along. </p>

<p>In any event, had he not stayed at the large co-ed public school he would not have taken up with her. I do believe she has changed him for the better, and that there is something to be said for both paths.</p>

29

<p>So far, D's criteria for college selections are interesting. She has some "fine tuning" to do. She just doesn't know it yet. ;) Her first criterion is that the ratio of male/female students has to be 50/50. Do you know how hard it is to find schools like that? Many of them are 40/60, or much fewer males..... :rolleyes:</p>

30

<p>1sokkermom -- Your D's ratio concerns remind me of the motto we girls followed at my engineering school 30 years ago: "The odds are good, but the goods are odd."</p>

31

<p>I went to an all-girls school. Occasionally, some boys would join classes from the all-boys school; and I went to the boys' school for Greek, as there weren't enough Greek teachers for both the boys and the girls (a total of 7). When the boys were in our classes, the girls would put on a sort of fashion show and simper, even the ordinarily bright ones; the boys would try to attract the attention of girls by acting silly. One threatened to cut off chunks of my hair if I did not give him the solution to a particular question on a test. Going to the boys' school was a daunting experience as the boys seemed to think that a girl was an alien species.
I would have preferred that the only boy I had to deal with during my school years was with my brother. He was younger and I could boss him around :) instead of being terrified.</p>

32

<p>StickerShock,</p>

<p>That is so funny you said that. I overheard D and her friend talking the other day. A lot of the boys at her current high school are not the stereotypical macho "cool" jock type. The ones I have met seem very intelligent and very polite. The group she tends to hang out with seem to be either "studious" or "artistic", or both. So, the standard line from some of the girls is that .."Boys are an urban myth at XXXX (her school)".</p>

<p>(I can only imagine what the boys say about the girls....:confused:)</p>

33

<p>


Once again, there seems to be this idea that students at a single gender school don't interact with those of the opposite gender. Of course, they do! Just not during Calculus etc.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
I'm all for options and I wish our public schools could/would offer more for our boys. I have long held the idea that normal "boy energy" is misunderstood. My son has had the good fortune of having teachers who understood his energy and appreciated his sense of humor but I know of plenty of other boys who have been hurt, if not damaged, by teachers who wanted all of their students to be like little girls.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So true. My son's HS is 70% girls (not a typo). Though I'm delighted that he has many girls as friends, I wish he had more guy peers. He was thrilled at the beginning of the semester to find out that one of his classes is 50-50 boys-girls (this has never happened). This led to our first-ever discussion about the impact of being in mostly female classes and the particular dynamic of his senior class, where girls tend to be in charge. Having grown up in an era when girls hardly ever dominated, I'm certainly glad things changed. But as the mother of a son, I see the other side.</p>

35

<p>This topic brings back wonderful memories.</p>

<p>My S#3 (currently a junior in hs) had a VERY unbalanced class composition in kindergarten and first grade--just a very strange year--there were 3 or 4 boys for every girl in the grade. </p>

<p>The school created 3 class rooms for the grade--two were mixed gender and the third was all male.</p>

<p>S3 was in a mixed kindergarden class--15 boys, 4 girls. Things were generally fine but I think the teacher (a newbie) was a bit overwhelmed sometimes.</p>

<p>For first grade, he was in an all boys class of 16 with a wonderful and experienced male teacher.</p>

<p>First grade was wonderful. The teacher exploited the boys energy and used it as an asset. They learned to count by 2s and 5s and 10s by doing jumping jacks, pushups and situps.</p>

<p>When he caught the boys in a burping contest coming in from recess, he used it. He had contests for who could burp longest, loudest, most in a row, etc--and the class graphed the results. Then the class studied burping--why and how the body does it, etc., and talked about how burping is perceived in different cultures,and then every boy wrote a "report" ( I saved my son's--it was hysterical) .</p>

<p>During the year, the class invited mom's to special days for Valentine's day and Mother's day, where the boys showed off the fancy manners they had learned (both social and table) and also invited their mothers to dance with them (they had learned fox trot, waltz and cha cha)</p>

<p>It was a wonderful year. The boys thrived without the "yucky" girls being around and the teacher was talented enough to mine their energy and creativity instead of trying to suppress it.</p>

<p>When the school did level testing at the beginning of second grade, the boys
who had been in that classroom excelled.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
When he caught the boys in a burping contest coming in from recess, he used it. He had contests for who could burp longest, loudest, most in a row, etc--and the class graphed the results. Then the class studied burping--why and how the body does it, etc., and talked about how burping is perceived in different cultures,and then every boy wrote a "report" ( I saved my son's--it was hysterical) .

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I love it! In certain cultures, burping and even belching after a meal is a sign that one has thoroughly enjoyed it-- a loud compliment to the chef!</p>

37

<p>"girls do not do as well in the classroom with boys. Take the fear of looking like a dork and compound it five fold, and that is what it's like for girls."</p>

<p>If this is true, it sounds like the problem is that we're raising a bunch of wimpy girls. If I had a fearful child, the last thing I would do is put her in an environment where she never has to confront her fears. Maybe we need to do a better job in the primary years of raising girls with guts.</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
If I had a fearful child, the last thing I would do is put her in an environment where she never has to confront her fears.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think anybody is suggesting that all-girl schools provide an environment that allows a shy girl to withdraw. The idea is to provide an environment in which less-bold, less-self assured girls have the opportunity to speak up and learn to be leaders. </p>

<p>Putting a skinny weakling into the boxing ring with a muscular tough guy is not the best way to teach the skinny guy how to get stronger. It may teach him that he <em>needs</em> to be stronger, but he'll be dead before he gets the chance to improve himself.</p>

39

<p>Actually, Hanna, being in an all-girl school (most of the time) made it easier for me to become more assertive and unafraid to display my knowledge, especially as I had no fear of appearing too intelligent for most boys. The time when I was threatened with having my hair cut off was because I was more intelligent than the idiot boy sitting behind me. It was also a relief when my female classmates did not act as if being called to the front of the classroom was an opportunity to pretend they were modeling fashion--something they did when boys were around.</p>

40

<p>The difference between public and private is very wide, considering some publics send less than 20% of its graduates to college and some are much higher than that. We all have to at least look at the public schools in our areas and go from there.</p>

<p>We started in the public schools but felt there wasn't strong enough academics. Our district sends about 60-75% of its graduates to college. I do not have the information about what percentage of students actually graduate. Out of a district that graduates almost 4,000 kids each year, they have anywhere from 10-20 kids that get NM recognition. At S1's high school, about 30-35% of each years graduates get NM recognition, S2's and S3's high school about 20-25% of graduates receive NM recognition. Both schools send 100% of graduates to college. Not just community college, but many top LAC', Ivies, and top universities. </p>

<p>Yes, they are in all male college prep programs. The private schools are not just for families with money. There are also grants and scholarships availbale at the high school level. Parents need to look at the schools available to them that can help their child best achieve their goals.</p>