American schools and the "boy" problem

Parents Forum
41

<p>I agree midmo
we learn best when we are relaxed.
While neither of my girls attended a single sex school- I did extensive research.
Both attended small private schools from K-2 grade, older D has never attended a public school, younger D attends a magnet inner city public high school.</p>

<p>This reminded me of the talent show at younger Ds school, not only did they have 8yr olds imitating the Spice Girls- I remember one boy who burped the alphabet for his entertainment.</p>

<p>It was hilarious
When he caught the boys in a burping contest coming in from recess, he used it. He had contests for who could burp longest, loudest, most in a row, etc--and the class graphed the results. Then the class studied burping--why and how the body does it, etc., and talked about how burping is perceived in different cultures,and then every boy wrote a "report" ( I saved my son's--it was hysterical) .</p>

42

<p>I'm a fan of single sex high schools. At D's school, the mission is to "empower each young woman to reach the fullness of her potential spiritually, morally, intellectually, socially and physically." These girls don't lack guts, and are not wimps in the least. Every leadership position is held by...a girl. Every top student is...a girl. Every top athlete is...a girl. A pattern is forming here, LOL! In short, if any initiative is needed, if any problems need to be overcome, the girls must rely on themselves. Just a whole lot more opportunities to shine & more nurturing of their potential.</p>

<p>Haven't picked one for son yet, but these mission statements are good examples: xxx school "seeks to cultivate its graduates as true men of faith, its “vir fidelis,” whose dignity and selflessness are worthy of the respect of others. These faithful men should bear witness to Jesus Christ as practicing Catholics, uphold the values of freedom and the responsibilities of leadership in their community, contribute to the betterment of their fellows through the utilization of their education and demonstrate the true generosity of the gospel message by committing themselves to the service of others."</p>

<p>Another: xxx school "seeks to enroll boys of good character who have demonstrated scholastic achievement and capacity for further growth. In turn, the faculty strives to support each boy's efforts toward intellectual development and to reinforce his commitment to help build a community of accountable persons. The faculty encourages each boy to become an independent seeker of information, not a passive recipient. Each boy must assume responsibility for gaining both knowledge and judgment, which will strengthen his faith, his membership in the life of the school, and his contribution to broader society. In short, while the School offers much, it also seeks boys who are willing to give much."</p>

<p>The all boy schools around here are much more than "high five" in the hallway environments. One mom who sent her boys to an all-boy Jesuit school told me the school molded them into gentlemen. </p>

<p>Boys & girls respond differently to education approaches. Single sex schools allow for more nuanced methods of teaching. Just the difference in prep time in the morning as D rolls out to school (none!) vs. social outings (mascara wand, hair straightener, five changes of clothes, hogging a mirror, etc.) is a plus, in my book. Monday through friday at achool she's focused on her studies & activities. Boys aren't a distraction. At my own Catholic h.s. we had two single sex schools under one roof. We used to spend the last five minutes of every class sneaking peeks in the mirror & primping as we readied ourselves for the possible meeting of cute guys in the hallway.</p>

<p>Seperating the sexes works for us; it may not be everyone's cup of tea.</p>

43

<p>"These girls don't lack guts, and are not wimps in the least. Every leadership position is held by...a girl. Every top student is...a girl. Every top athlete is...a girl."</p>

<p>That is exactly what my D would say about her coed (Catholic) high school. :o</p>

<p>The presence of boys has clearly not stifled these girls !</p>

44

<p>Sokkermom, do you think the "GirlPower" focus our kids were raised with is working? LOL!</p>

45

<p>^ I hope so. </p>

<p>I think that in real life the girls will be competing, interacting, and maybe even marrying men. They may as well get used to dealing with the opposite gender at an early age. In my line of work, I deal with mostly men. I'm rather glad I'm not intimidated by them. ;)</p>

<p>And sometimes the burping thing never goes away. (Even with grown professionals!)</p>

46

<p>"These girls don't lack guts, and are not wimps in the least."</p>

<p>And I don't believe that they are. I think they have what it takes to be superstars in any kind of school. But another poster stated that girls like the superstars you know would be too scared to achieve the same feats in a co-ed environment. If that's true, that suggests that we aren't raising these girls tough enough. The assumption that girls' fears would paralyze them in a co-ed environment does indeed imply that they are wimps.</p>

<p>If a single-sex school is right for your child of either gender, that's great. That's a matter of fit, in high school just as it is in college. But I think it's selling these girls short to suppose that they'd all just be meek little mice hiding in the corner of a co-ed classroom. If midmo is right that a lot of high school girls are "skinny weaklings" in the academic boxing ring, then we ought to be asking why we didn't raise stronger fighters in the first place.</p>

47

<p>Haven't read the whole thread... but</p>

<p>TheDad, in the original article, does the experienced teacher discuss where boys stand on re-integration? One problem I've noticed with my son is simply delayed development, compounded by being far behind now as an 11th grader, and by being one of the younger students in his class. in other words, his problems were not just attention, there are some basic maturation issues present. If I had a do over, I would have held him out a year, because so many, many of his peers are older, but I think single sex middle school would also have helped if his learning styles had been addressed.</p>

48

<p>Hanna, I said nothing about "a lot of" high school girls. I mused that some girls might have a better chance to develop certain kinds of strengths in a girl's school. I also did not say that shy girls are weaklings in the academic boxing ring. I think you missed my point.</p>

<p>As I stated in an earlier post, I think a coed school was good for my son and for the girls with whom he became friends. Not all girls are like each other; not all boys are like each other. </p>

<p>Could you give me examples of exactly how to "raise stronger fighters in the first place"? Perhaps some examples from how you have raised your daughters would help me see how you translate theory into practice.</p>

49

<p>Agree with Cangel: </p>

<p>the big difference in educating boys vs girls is not same or single sex classes, its differing levels of maturity, both academic and otherwise. girls ( in general) hit their stride earlier in both ways. Boys (in general) lag. i still think these differences are magnified by the set up in most districts that puts kids in middle school (grades 6-8), rather than JHS (grades 7-9). in the latter set up guys get the extra year they may need to "grow up." but with a middle school set up, the girls enter HS ahead and tend to stay there. i think its no surprise that girls have made great academic strides in the past 30 years, the same period in which we saw the switch from jhs to ms.</p>

50

<p>Sorry, BAD. Although I have since learned different configurations existed, when I was growing up in my neck of the woods "junior high school" was 7-8, and high school began at 9. I suspect you would have a hard time proving the junior high -> middle school semantic switch has changed much of anything.</p>

<p>What has changed is expectations. When I was in 6th-7th grade, the boys at my boys' school were way ahead of the girls from whom we had separated after grade 4, because we were being forced to work our tails off, and they weren't. We were doing three times the writing they were, and were probably a year ahead in math. Of the 30 or so girls in my 4th grade class, all of whom went to girls' schools thereafter, only one took Calculus in high school.</p>

<p>Also, my kids' experience was definitely that the boys had generally caught up with the girls by the end of 8th grade. I remember my 8th grade daughter sobbing at home because she had just been smoked in a debate in history class by a couple of boys who had not even been on her radar screen as competition (until that day, no boys were). Mathphobia kicked in for a lot of girls that year, too. And my son went from "I think I'm dumb" in 7th grade to "I think I'm an academic rock star" in 9th.</p>

<p>sjmom: Kids at single-sex schools do see kids of the opposite sex outside of school, sometimes, but it's a very different relationship -- a lot more distant, and a lot more dominated by courtship behavior. At least that was my experience growing up, and that of my friends. I had occasional girlfriends, but no unrelated girls who were friends. My son spent an awful lot of time at school, and working on school stuff, academics and ECs. If those things hadn't involved girls, girls would not have been part of his everyday life (except for his sister). He would probably still have fielded some dating interest (some of which came from girls at different schools), but that's very different from working on math problems together, or Academic team, or history presentations.</p>

51

<p>Thanks for the words of support-I signed off last night knowing that my comments would elicit some kind of discussion. All schools are different as are all children. Our daughter attended Catholic school K-12. The elementary years (K-8) were co-ed. She was a bright and quirky creative type and suffered at the hands of the popular girls clique. The boys all seemed to follow the populars, so she had 2 to 3 girl friends none of whom ever dared to speak up in class and consequently she never excelled. When the time came to decide on a HS, she fell in love with the all girls school, I think in part because none of the popular girls were going there. It was like a light switch, she was in classes with girls who were like her, and she felt totally accepted. She suddenly started to bloom and volunteer for activities. She went to dances because it didn't matter if you didn't have a date-girls go stag all the time. Hanna, I understand where you're coming from, but for us, going to that HS was the best thing we could have done. She is went from an average meek student to an excellent confident student. She is attending a tech heavy University 60/40 boys over girls and has been on the deans list almost every semester and has a wonderful bright boyfriend there. So as protective parents, yes we did shield her from some harsh realities, but she probably would not be where she is today if we had not.</p>

52

<p>"I also did not say that shy girls are weaklings in the academic boxing ring. "</p>

<p>You didn't? Who was the "skinny weakling" (your words) in the boxer analogy supposed to represent?</p>

53

<p>^^I second kittymom. It reminds me of weight-training--starting too early can backfire!</p>

54

<p>OK, I'm approaching this discussion of single gender schools as the mother of two girls. Neither of my daughters is comfortable in girl world -- you know the world where girls are nice to your face and mean behind your back, and the world where letting your intellectualism show is considered poor taste.</p>

<p>One coped with high school girl world by surrounding herself with a few close girlfriends who shared her outlook. The other one copes with high school girl world by mostly developing friendships with boys.</p>

<p>So I suppose one of my girls would have done fine at a single gender school, but not the other. And a moot point in our case, as no local single gender schools were available.</p>

<p>I do think that whether one chooses a single gender or co-ed school, we need to make sure our children know it's "cool" to be smart and intellectually engaged in the classroom.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
"I also did not say that shy girls are weaklings in the academic boxing ring. "</p>

<p>You didn't? Who was the "skinny weakling" (your words) in the boxer analogy supposed to represent?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I didn't read the following to imply kids were less capable academically, but perhaps fit more the mold of my oldest who was extremely gifted academically, but also very good at reading social cues and at potentially hanging in the background/getting overlooked, in a classroom of students that were much more demanding. She would possibly have done" fine" in a classroom of 32 in public school, where I have often seen the class be disrupted by students who have learning styles that are non linear, but by attending a school with smaller class sizes and more indivualized instruction she was able to excel, not just "do fine".</p>

<p>*less-bold, less-self assured girls have the opportunity to speak up and learn to be leaders.</p>

<p>Putting a skinny weakling into the boxing ring with a muscular tough guy is not the best way to teach the skinny guy how to get stronger. It may teach him that he <em>needs</em> to be stronger, but he'll be dead before he gets the chance to improve himself.</p>

<pre><code>*
</code></pre>

<p>I have seen parents who use "put downs" as a parenting tool, reasoning that it will inspire the kids to "show them" and rise above expectations.
But more often, I have seen kids internalize those putdowns, and repeat them so much to themselves, that they are selffulling.</p>

<p>Yes the school of hard knocks could make kids stronger- but that is only if you don't mind a low survival rate.</p>

56

<p>Hanna:</p>

<p>My boxer/fighter analogy had nothing to do, directly, with girls/scholars. I was merely trying to come up with an example of a situation in which long-term success is more likely if one is given a chance to develop necessary skills.</p>

<p>It is the long-term picture that parents need to be concerned with. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes the school of hard knocks could make kids stronger- but that is only if you don't mind a low survival rate.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is what I was trying to say. </p>

<p>I was a sharp-tongued, sarcastic, cynical girl who was quite convinced that I was smarter than most of the boys I was in class with. My daughter is a sweet, sensitive thing; her needs are different. It is a moot point, since she is in high school already and there are no single-sex schools anywhere near here. </p>

<p>Options, choices. Kids are not cut-out cookies.</p>

57

<p>


This is probably true. </p>

<p>For me, the questions is how does this affect future work or other relationships between the genders? Does attending a single gender school make future relationships more difficult?</p>

<p>From what I've seen, attending an all-boy or all-girl school has little impact on future relationships. Obviously, this is anecdotal. Human nature seems to smooth over any little difficulties. But I will admit that H and I were a little surprised at how quickly our older son began to date his girlfriend. As a mother of sons, I found it interesting to talk with DS's GF about her experiences at an all-girl school. She is charming, ambitious and naturally beautiful. One thing I discovered is that she's very comfortable just rolling out of bed and heading off to class -- no make up or hair styling. She says that that's the result of four years at her HS.</p>

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<p>SJ -- Son's GF sounds just like my D. Roll out of bed, wash face, brush teeth. Done. Throw hair up into the Catholic schoolgirl sloppy ponytail. Done. All showering is done in the evening to allow for an extra few minutes of sleep in the morning. The girls seem to compete for who can look sloppiest, wearing crazy pajama pants under their skirts before the bell rings & they must look uniform. They are an amazingly confident bunch. When I was a teen, I needed a bit of primping before feeling confident & ready to face the world. D dolls herself up for big social events, & loves doing so, but otherwise is comfortable in her own skin. </p>

<p>In all girl schools, the girls don't have any competition for guys' attention -- they make their mark with other achievements, be it academic, athletic, artistic, etc. Of course girls in co-ed shools can shine. I just like the fact that the mating game & all the energy that takes up is not a concern during the school day.</p>

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<p>But who's to say it is for most girls? My D's get-ready-for-school routine was the same as your D's, Stickershock. She, like an above posters D, was not into "girl world" and was capable of being a sensible, intelligent human being around boys. I think that prepared her for the real world much better. She was not a skinny weakling in a boxing ring-- do girls need to go into strength training in order to deal with boys? That's a sad view of them.</p>

<p>And, I was an extraordinarily shy girl, but I grew by being challenged in a huge, co-ed public high school, without feeling battered by it (and had some close guy friends, which helped.)</p>

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<p>No, I don't think girls need strength training to deal with boys. I think EVERYONE needs strength training to deal with the world. I just happen to think single sex high schools meet the needs of both sexes very well & are great places to build up that strength.</p>