"An Admissions Dean's Tips for Getting In" ....US News & WR article

<p>An</a> Admissions Dean's Tips for Getting In - US News and World Report</p>

<p>the Admissions Dean at Franklin & Marshall answers these questions:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Many high school students are torn between choosing easy classes so they will get A's and taking honors or Advanced Placement classes, in which they might get lower grades. What's your advice?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
What if a high school doesn't have many AP classes? Should a high school student take community college courses?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
What if the student doesn't do well on the SAT?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
If students get a bad grade, or a bad test score, or some other problem, should they explain it in their application essay?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
You talk about r</p>

<p>Thanks, Papa Chicken. The reporter deserves kudos for framing the questions in such a dircect, no-nonsense way, and Van Buskirk deserves accolades for answering so forthrightly. This thread deserves a sticky pin!</p>

<p>Cool article. Thanks. Wish I had known to enroll in community college classes. I might enroll in some this coming spring, provided my current curriculum is forgiving.</p>

<p>Thanks, that was helpful.</p>

<p>I think Peter van Buskirk is someone in college admissions always worth listening to - and so this may also be of interest - a recent short interview "Playing the College Admissions Game" he gave to a local Boston tv station for "College Week":</p>

<p>ROO</a> TV | Streaming Media | Music Video | News Video | Broadcasting | Online Advertising | ROO TV Media | ROO TVTV</p>

<p>Btw, Peter van Buskirk who is often described as enrollment officer, admission strategist, and motivational speaker all rolled into one is former admissions dean and enrollment manager of F&M. Under his leadership, Franklin and Marshall went SAT optional in 1992. In his post as the Vice President of College Planning Solutions at Peterson's, he has been actively "spilling the beans" for quite some time now. Since he is so consistently outspoken against USNWR's ranking, and ripping the veil off the myths, and so-called "hidden agendas" of selective colleges, it is indeed a nice touch to see one of his pieces featured in USNWR.</p>

<p>OnlineAthens.com</a> | Letters to the Editor | Peter Van Buskirk: College rankings shouldn't guide choices of students 08/27/07</p>

<p>Also of interest: "Get a Head Start on College Applications" </p>

<p>Get</a> a Head Start on College Applications - Peterson's</p>

<p>Interesting, though I wish he had answered the AP question more directly and honestly. Most kids are deciding b/w AP Physics and standard Physics, not AP Physics and a gut.</p>

<p>I thought his implication was pretty clear--if you don't take any AP classes, they won't have as good a sense if you can do college level work.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A lot of parents believe if that if they apply for financial aid, the student's chances of getting in are reduced. Is that true?
I believe that is the case. I would further say that it depends on where the student is applying. It is really important for students to put themselves on the right playing field. By that, I mean putting themselves into a competition that makes sense for them. Find the place that matches up with your ability to perform. Find the place that values you for what you do well. That school will make sure you get what you need in order to complete your education. The bottom line is that a student's ability to be self-supporting financially is an important credential at many places.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Interesting</p>

<p>Now I'm worried for my D, since he said the colleges do count it against you for applying for financial aid. We submitted the CSS and financial aid forms (doubt we would qualify for anything other than loans, but I thought with some schools it helps with getting merit $). Hope this totally doesn't ruin her chances for reach schools.</p>

<p>"I thought his implication was pretty clear--if you don't take any AP classes, they won't have as good a sense if you can do college level work."</p>

<p>Yes, I'm just not sure that's true - - or logical. A "B+" average w/o APs won't kill you, but w/ a couple of "C" grades - - even in an AP - - your GPA will drop like a stone (absent weighted gpa, which is not universal) AND you'll have failed to show "ready for college level work" (or worse still, you'll have affirm estab'd that you're NOT ready for collegel level work).</p>

<p>A surprising number of lesser day schools have dropped all APs and still have great acceptance rates and matric lists. Also, I see a striking increase in the number of kids taking AP Studio Art (as opposed to AP Calc or Physics or Chem). Moreover, even when students take the more rigorous/acadme AP courses, many don't report the scores (pretty lame to get a 95 in your AP Bio course and end up w/ just a 2 on the exam), and doesn't one of the current CC threads say that 2/3 of the AP classes pass muster (so !/3 don't).</p>

<p>Way too much scamming on both sides.</p>

<p>A lot of high level prep schools have dropped APs also. A tough class at a prep school is every bit as challenging as an AP course. A lot of teachers hate being tied to the specific AP curriculum.</p>

<p>2forcollege - I was fortunate enough to attend 2 of Peter Van Buskirk's workshops when my daughter was applying to college, and I am probably one of his biggest fans. He simply lays it out straight, no bull -- and I'd credit sound advice that we got from him as being a big help in shaping college strategy. My d. got into colleges that were super-reaches for her, and yes - we do need financial aid. In fact, my d's first year at Barnard the need-based aid amounted to virtually a full-tuition scholarship --something over $30K in grant money. My d's ACT and SAT scores are in the bottom 25% for Barnard (and are also low for NYU, Chicago, & Berkeley, where she also got admitted)</p>

<p>I think Peter VB is truthful, but that the comment was not addressed to the well-funded, elite colleges that claim to be need-blind. I say "claim to be" because Peter also says that no college is truly need-blind, but an elite school like Barnard is not looking directly at whether or not there is a financial aid application on file. Rather, they use practices such as a strong component of ED admissions to ensure that they get a certain percentage of full paying students; colleges also tend to be need-aware in the spring if they go to wait lists. Need-aware at that point doesn't necessarily mean that they only take full payers off the wait list -- but it does mean that they check with the financial aid department about what's left in the budget before making a call. </p>

<p>Here's a more nuanced explanation (some from my own experience, a lot learned from Peter VB): All colleges have a financial aid budget and they want to give some of that money to students -- that money is there for a reason and they expect to spend it -- but they want to use it in a strategic manner that benefits their agenda. Harvard has a ton of money and their agenda (briefly summarized) is to get the best and the brightest to their school; field their athletic teams; and increase diversity with well-qualified and capable students -- money is never going to be an issue for them but the bar is set pretty high to get into the running. </p>

<p>Most of the "need-blind" schools are elite (extremely selective) colleges with strong endowments, so the same considerations apply, though the specific agenda of a given school may be different, and the slightly less elite can't be quite as choosy. One big part of a college's agenda is to select students who will come -- so a big part of the enrollment management process is to be aware of those "fit" factors that translate into likely attendance. But the bottom line is that your kid is either in the running for those schools, or not -- and applying for financial aid is not likely to be the deciding factor.</p>

<p>For colleges that are not need-blind, it is obviously a different story. The colleges are still trying to meet their own agenda, however -- so the question becomes, what does this student bring to our college? </p>

<p>I think the mistake people make is thinking that the college agenda is met by grades and SAT scores. After attending Peter VB's workshop, I knew that was the wrong analysis for my daughter -- I had to look in terms of what my daughters unique assets were-- and then do enough research about each college to get a sense of whether that was the sort of thing that would cause the college to sit up and take notice. </p>

<p>My d. was waitlisted at two colleges that should have been easier to get into than the ones that accepted her -- Brandeis & Boston U. BU was the big surprise, and I do think that financial aid considerations played a part there. BU does not meet full need and is fairly transparent about the way it leverages its aid, and I think that my d. fit into a category of student who they would not fully subsidize, and who looked unlikely to attend without a strong aid package. </p>

<p>The moral is: do your research. If you can't answer the question, "why should this college accept my kid over any other kid?" then chances aren't so great at the elites, and the best bet for financial aid are safeties or low-end matches. The place where a financial aid application is likely to be the tipping point is those "match" schools - the ones where it is about 50/50 your kid gets in. The problem is, it is not always so easy to figure out which school is the "match" vs reach or safety -- since, as noted, its not just about SAT scores.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm worried for my D, since he said the colleges do count it against you for applying for financial aid. We submitted the CSS and financial aid forms (doubt we would qualify for anything other than loans, but I thought with some schools it helps with getting merit $). Hope this totally doesn't ruin her chances for reach schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can relax, at least a little. There are a couple of dozen colleges that are truly need blind and meet 100% of calculated need; maybe your D applied to some of them? At these schools ability to pay should not be considered in the admissions process.</p>

<p>In addition, there are several tiers of need-awareness. At need-aware/100%-need-meeting colleges with substantial financial aid budgets, the ability to pay is only considered when they get to the admissions "cusp," the bottom tier of the students they admit. In general, the smaller the financial resources, the larger the cusp. Some need-aware schools also have targets for the number of self-help only admits, students whose need can be covered by the standard loan and work study package (that sounds like the group your D would fall into). At such schools, she'd might actually have an advantage over students with higher need. </p>

<p>As you move to schools that don't meet guarantee to meet 100% of need, ability to pay becomes less of a factor. These schools can still admit students, but not offer aid or "gap" them and offer them less than their calculated need. </p>

<p>It's really schools like F&M that are need aware but meet 100% need where the situation described in the article is most acute.</p>

<p>Edit: crossposted with calmom, sorry for a lot of duplication.</p>

<p>One more note on the financial aid -- colleges that are need-aware are truly need-aware, meaning that they can and do ask the financial aid department how much a student needs. So being borderline for qualifying for financial aid can actually be a plus. It gives the college a chance to inflate its financial aid numbers for p.r. purposes (i.e., the overall percentage of students receiving need-based aid)... without actually spending much money. </p>

<p>In other words, from an economic standpoint, its better to take 10 students who each qualify for only $2000 in need-based grant aid than 1 student who will need $25K.</p>

<p>So my daughter, who has two siblings in college, will have a distinct disadvantage in getting accepted? This is something I have been worrying about, but seeing it in black in white is scary...</p>

<p>' If you can't answer the question, "why should this college accept my kid over any other kid?" then chances aren't so great at the elites ... '</p>

<p>I think calmom is exactly right on this point. My D was waitlisted at two schools where he scores would have put her in the top 10% of accepted students. In both cases there wasn't a compelling reason for the school to admit her, and as far as I could tell that was the only flaw in her applications.</p>

<p>Any tips on finding the 'specialness' in your child that would match w/what a school would require? These seems like a complicated puzzle....!</p>

<p>Jolyynne - Well, I have a suggestion. If your S is going to pursue what interests him AND you need to find what makes a school and your S a "special" match, visit a variety of schools and let him see what he likes. At minimum that will provide the answer to "Why I love this school." With his profile I'm sure he'll have no trouble getting admitted to excellent technical programs. I'm sure RPI would love to have him. (Full disclosure: I'm an alumnus.)</p>

<p>Thanks, NewHope! Appreciate the insight. That's kind of what we are doing lately--just visiting a whole variety of schools w/in about 1 hour of our home (we're fortunate that there are 20 plus that fall into that category!).</p>

<p>Son does seem to be developing some initial preferences & makes some really insightful comments re: class size/professors (things I wouldn't have considered!).</p>

<p>Maybe we'll check out RPI...are they known for having a strong computer science/computer engineering program by any chance?? Thanks!</p>