An honest look at how Intel Finalists get there

Parents Forum
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<p>1ofeach said: "But there was no way for her to break into that last tier, reserved solely for mentored projects."</p>

<p>I think this happens in more areas than just Intel. My son just returned from a debate tournament where most of the students that made the final rounds attend prep schools that have large budgets dedicated to coaching, research materials, and travel. He bought two philosophy books with his own money, has self-coached himself this year, and has not been able to travel to any of the TOCs outside of Texas. </p>

<p>And I can relate to Tx_bandit--we too live several hours away from any four year university. While some students at our local science fair come up with some very well researched and executed projects, most of them have parents that work at one of the hospitals or plants down here. Needless to say, they do not fare well at the state level. </p>

<p>I would think, however, that an adcom looking at applications would take this into consideration. Perhaps students at places where they do have more access are expected to be more successful in Intel and other competitions?</p>

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<p>NYCdad: I think there came to be general concensus here that some kids get legitimate help, and some, judging by what they themselves said, got something more. I wouldn't assume everyone is guilty, but some of the kids quoted in this article sure sound like ordinarily bright kids who were spoonfed the opportunity of a lifetime.</p>

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Professor Rafailovich gave her the topic - to examine whether tiny particles in cosmetics, nanoparticles, could damage skin cells. "Aditi walked into a project where a million dollars had been spent to get to that point," said Professor Rafailovich.

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Martin Rocek, a Stony Brook physics professor, picked a math project for Neal Wadhwa of Ward Melville. "It happened there was a new development in the field that was not exceedingly technical," says Professor Rocek, who gave Neal private geometry tutorials and suggested several calculations to work out. Those calculations broke new ground in the supermanifold field, but Neal says that at first, he didn't grasp what his answers meant. "Professor Rocek told me the significance of what I'd found," he said. "I didn't know."

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<p>I think it's the idea of abuses that bugs me; I certainly don't think that no kids could do some of these things.</p>

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<p>Nycdad, please reread my post. My own kids both worked with mentors. I have no problem with that. It's the way they learn, and it's a wonderful opportunity. What I do object to is that one student in the article is quoted as saying her professor "would have no project if it were not for the daily help she received from a team of nearby Stony Brook professors. 'I'm only 17,' she said. 'I didn't have the background to create the experiement. I didn't know how to use the equipment. I couldn't create the hypothesis." In my view, that's crossing a line. And it's quite different from the way you describe your son's work.</p>

<p>My d, who is a college freshman taking a lab science course, has already (ten weeks into the semester) been designing experiments right and left. Through the readings and the labs, the students are introduced to the field, and then they are expected to use their own creativity to design experiments. To me that is an essential part of the Intel; the student should not be a drone, carrying out her or his professor's orders, but should instead be thinking creatively. That's what makes the whole competition exciting. </p>

<p>Here is an article from the Times Magazine, published a few years ago, that presents a very different picture of students working on Intel projects: <a href="http://partners.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000604mag-nerds.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://partners.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000604mag-nerds.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>One of my main points is the time spent on these mentored, school sponsored projects. The mentored projects at our state fair are worked on during regular school hours. Kids leave school during the afternoon and report to a lab for credit. The first place winner was getting credit for 3 courses while he worked on the project! Some kids are winning prizes for what is essentially a course with professor help. Other kids are not given one minute of in time school or help. Their projects are "spare time" , solo ventures. Two very different beasts.</p>

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<p>As a mom who actually hates science fairs, I have to put my two-cents in. I know a boy who won at the Intel fair. I know that his parents drove him regulary to a research center where he was helped. I know that in college, he has been put in remedial math courses. </p>

<p>I could go on but I'll try to contain myself.</p>

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<p>Apparent5...you wrote:</p>

<p>"I have always wondered how a student might wake up one morning and decide to investigate some of the highly technical topics they do; it takes years to get up on the shoulders of giants, and when a prof hands you the idea and the method, you are getting a very quick boost!"</p>

<p>Like I said, I have no doubt that there are/have been abuses. That's unfortunate. And I'd point out, the mentors are as much to blame if not more so in those cases. But I really do believe that these are by far the exception, not the rule.</p>

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<p>"But I really do believe that these are by far the exception, not the rule."</p>

<p>Nycdad, I thought so, too, until I read the article in the Times this morning!</p>

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<p>But the winners were the exception, so what does that teach other competitors- the mentors are to blaim, and if so much wasn't at stake...you have kids working their bumms off by themselves, probably putting in as many hours, but doing it almost solo...its like the pro body builders competitions- you got your natural competitors and you got your pumped up on steroid ones....so now, you have two different competitions....</p>

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<p>Ward Melville is so close to the State University at Stony Brook, Lauren could bike to the lab daily to work with Prof. Bruce Brownawell and his doctoral students.......</p>

<p>.............Aditi Ramakrishnan, a semifinalist who researched toxicity of nanoparticles in cosmetics, says she would have no project if it were not for the daily help she received from a team of nearby Stony Brook professors. "I'm only 17," she said. "I didn't have the background to create the experiment. I didn't know how to use the equipment. I couldn't create the hypothesis."...........</p>

<p>Professor Rafailovich gave her the topic - to examine whether tiny particles in cosmetics, nanoparticles, could damage skin cells. "Aditi walked into a project where a million dollars had been spent to get to that point,"....</p>

<p>.....Martin Rocek, a Stony Brook physics professor, picked a math project for Neal Wadhwa of Ward Melville. "It happened there was a new development in the field that was not exceedingly technical," says Professor Rocek, who gave Neal private geometry tutorials and suggested several calculations to work out.</p>

<p>Professor Rocek circulated Neal's findings, and those world-class mathematicians made suggestions to improve his project.</p>

<p>.......But none of these are the main reason Ward Melville excels. High school students cannot do research at this level without adult mentors - often a university professor plus a team of grad students - to pick a topic that will break new ground, yet be manageable, and to supervise them at every step.</p>

<p>There is no denying that these kids worked hard, but the underlying theme from the above paragraphs is that the kids did not do the reasearch, they followed directions.</p>

<p>I used to feel proud when my son did those lego and knex things at the age of 6-7 when the suggested ages were 10-12. He was following directions.</p>

<p>cowpernia, remedial math courses? are you sure.</p>

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<p>It's not a question of guilt, or criticism against the students, it's just a ridiculous situation in toto. Nowhere has anyone said that they did not work hard, it's just how they were allowed to go about it. Nothing personal against the students, but rather the process and the system.</p>

<p>


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<p>You said it right there. Your son "did" a project in a field he knew nothing about. </p>

<p>Why don't the admins of the contests only permit mentorship from your H.S. science teachers ? Why undertake a project that needs hand-holding from college professors, and that you know nothing about, to the extent that no part of the project is yours but the dog-work? Sure, go do these projects for the enrichment, and love of learning science, who is not encouraging that?</p>

<p>I don't get how one can compare these science fair/contest winners to an athlete or violinist who is going "solo". Maybe you can compare some of these Science winners to an athlete on steroids.</p>

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<p>Aparent5....</p>

<p>I guess I read the article differently than you do. Personally, I don't give much credibility to a few quotes taken out of the context of a whole conversation, especially when I don't know the people involved. </p>

<p>I'm not close to the situation at Ward Melville, so I take the article and quotes with a grain of salt. However, I was very close to the research program at Stuy and I'm very comfortable that the program runs and works as intended. Having said that, I can imagine a student there saying much the same thing.</p>

<p>Reading the quotes, it's hard to know where modesty ends and dishonesty begins.</p>

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<p>
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No top-ranked athlete, musician, performer, writer or anything else did it on their own. It may not be equitable that kids in one school have more resources available to them than another, but that seems to be a pervasive theme throughout the admissions process as it is in life.

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NYCdad, I know it is hard to wade through every post in a thread, but this was dealt with repeatedly. In each case you cite, there is a PERFORMANCE involved. No mentor can disguise himself as a student and do the musical or athletic performance (and if they do the writing it is plagiarism). But except for a brief question-and-answer explanation, the performance for the science fair IS the research, the paper, the hypothesis, the experiments, etc - in short, everything.</p>

<p>You are comparing apples and oranges.</p>

<p>[edit] I am not getting my information from ONE New York Times article. This has been a bete noir of mine for a long, long time. I have seen way, way too much abuse, and it not only makes the scholarship aspect totally unfair, but it leads SOME students to believe that it is OK to pass off others' work as their own - which can be a real problem later in life.</p>

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<p>Chocoholic...</p>

<p>So let's see...your 4 year old kid picks up a fiddle one day and without any help, lessons, instruction, etc. is concertmaster of the Philharmonic at age 17. all by him/herself. right.</p>

<p>can't wait to see the first olympic ice skating champion who did it alone without training. on second thought, i may not live that long.</p>

<p>what in the world is your point?</p>

<p>as for my S, he spent four years learning genetics in the lab so he could complete a project in statistical genetics. he brought the mathematics to the party and learned to apply it. until i read your post, i was suffering under the delusion that a research project involved learning/finding out about the unknown. thank you for setting me straight.</p>

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<p>nycdad - you posted after I did. We have all accepted that training is done through coaches, etc. while the performance is one's own, which is why the analogy * does not hold*. There is no reason to be sarcastic - your son sounds wonderful and you should be proud of him, but again - there is a lot of abuse and a lot of room for reasoned debate.</p>

<p>{game over} for me anyway!</p>

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<p>"except for a brief question-and-answer explanation, "
nedad...</p>

<p>the intel is something of an exception here, since it only requires a paper in the first round. but other science fairs require extensive presentations. my s gave quite a few that lasted longer than any skating performance i've ever seen and were certainly the equal of a musical performance. you and i may not agree on this, but i do think that this is the science research equivalent of a "solo performance". I attended many of these and watched my s and others. the questioning can be very very extensive and a poorly prepared presenter will be exposed just as quickly as any poorly prepared musician.</p>

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<p>nedad...</p>

<p>my sarcasm was not directed at you. i respect your point of view. while i may disagree about the "performances", i share your disdain for abuses.</p>

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<p>From the Intel application: <a href="http://www.sciserv.org/sts/students/rules.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sciserv.org/sts/students/rules.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"A student who attended a summer institute, pre-college student research program or worked in a scientist's laboratory, and who based his or her research project on that experience, must have the supervising scientist complete Part IIA of the Entry Form giving descriptive and explanatory evidence of the student's independence and creativity."</p>

<p>If you go to part IIA (it's a pdf) <a href="http://www.sciserv.org/sts/intfrm.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sciserv.org/sts/intfrm.pdf&lt;/a> you will see that it asks, "How did you get the idea for your research?" and "What help have you received in doing your research?"</p>

<p>It would be nice to think that students and mentors would be honest here. How many would state explicitly that the mentor came up with the idea and then gave the work to world-class colleagues for vetting?</p>

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<p>About the remedial math .. his parents have publicly complained that the public school didn't give him an appropriate education and so he ended up in remedial math at the university. </p>

<p>At the local science fair, I saw a seventh grader win for doing his project on how certain herbs affected people with a certain disease. I don't want to be specific and recognizable. I surely do not think a child can perform experiments on human beings.</p>

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<p>A Science project is judged on all of the months of work put into it, by prof. and student, including the high-flying topics, research etc. Many projects appear to have been micro-managed.</p>

<p>A violin performance is judged by those 15 minutes of the sonata, and the instrument is handled by the performer alone.</p>

<p>We can all be polite here. I will not be baited by sarcasm.</p>

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<p>Cowpernia, I have always wondered about your name. Is it linked to Calpurnia from "To kill...."</p>