An honest look at how Intel Finalists get there

Parents Forum
61

<p>
[quote]
"Moreover, it is not as if universities are available to students all over the USA."</p>

<p>Totally disagree. They are. There are universities in every single state. This is not simply about proximity or wealth. I acknowledge that those are helpful, but they are NOT necessary. There ARE students who do well in these competitons without mentoring. And there ARE students who do not come from wealthy close high schools who do well. These opportunities ARE out there for many students (though not all, just like with everything).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Jen, I don't disagree with you often, but in this case you are totally niave. I came out of a high school that even today doesn't teach trig. The closest 4 year college is 100 miles away. I can guarantee you that not a single student in that high school today even knows that Intel sponsors a science competition. Opportunity is everything in these competitions and no, not all students have an opportunity.</p>

62

<p>From NY TImes Article:</p>

<p>"The school subscribes to an online service giving students unlimited access to the latest research papers. Dr. Baldo's program has its own $4,000 printer that can produce an entire science fair poster board in a single 42-inch-wide sheet, and a $30,000 budget to pay travel expenses to nine science fairs a year. "We don't worry about raffling off a case of soda to buy materials," says Dr. Baldo.</p>

<p>He has a large enough staff to make sure all 38 pages of the Intel international science and engineering fair application get filled out correctly by the 25 students going. "I finally found the two forms you kept asking me for," Tony Li, a student, told Dr. Baldo the other day. "They were under a couch."</p>

<p>But none of these are the main reason Ward Melville excels. High school students cannot do research at this level without adult mentors - often a university professor plus a team of grad students - to pick a topic that will break new ground, yet be manageable, and to supervise them at every step"</p>

<p>Its not the science, its who is DOING THE SCIENCE....</p>

63

<p>Though it may not seem that way, Blossom, I am 100% in agreement with you on the fact that our society tends to ignore academic achievment (or denigrates it by calling it elitist) while celebrating sports, etc. I also agree that kids who go out of their way to knock themselves out in science deserve praise. My ONLY problem is if the work is passed off as 100% their own, as it is in every single science fair I have ever been involved in, either as a parent, judge, or spectator - though according to the above, this does NOT apply to Intel - the mentor must be acknowledged, at least.</p>

<p>My children have co-authored papers presented at national conferences, but the keyword is "co-author" and their names were listed second. They also were not competing for cash and scholarships against people who actually did the projects alone. There is a huge difference.</p>

<p>I applaud any and all academic achievement, and that includes -as in my children's case - work done with mentors. If the mentor is not acknowledged, especially if the mentor provides the idea, hypothesis, labs, thesis, etc. ad infinitum, it's called plagiarism or fraud, and is usually grounds for severe consequences if an adult employee of a university or a lab does it.</p>

64

<p>My son's school had a science research program aimed at regional and state science fair competition, in which the teacher provided guidance and assistance in finding a mentor. The nearest university was a two-hour drive away, BTW. Even with that help, it's hard work to prepare to compete at that level---if the student does most of the work. I think judges and mentors can do a lot to make sure the student is stretched to the limits at all times.</p>

<p>Jenskate, while I think most of what you say is dead-on, I must take issue with your "eastern" assumption that universities are readily accessible for most students. Here in Washington, for example, there are universities in most of our major and minor cities---but here in the eastern suburbs of Seattle I am still 30-60 minutes away (longer during rush hour, shorter at midnight) from the closest university, and many parts of the state are literally hours away from a university. Further, public university professors are supposed to be providing research opportunities for their own tuition-paying students, and may not have time to take on a high school student as well.</p>

<p>I remember reading a few years back that the best predictor of whether a student would be a Intel or Siemens finalist is whether one parent is a university professor. Access is certainly an issue.</p>

65

<p>"We live in a society which glorifies athletes and athletic accomplishment and is anti-elitist when it comes to achievement in any other realm (except of course being rich and thin). " You forgot entertainers! (I gotta learn how to use those quote boxes).</p>

<p>I agree that it is great that some kids have these opportunites and take advantage of them. </p>

<p>No Intel semi finalists in our immediate area, but I don't think it is because the kids are selling candy bars. There just don't seem to be teachers/parents here who have made "connections" for them to those opportunities. And though it is possible for a kid to come up with something on his/her own, with no teacher/parent guidance, (and I know some do!), it is not as likely to happen in in that environment. And no, no sour grapes about that. I think it is wonderful that schools/programs are out there in a few areas that guide high school kids into this kind of research. College will offer those opportunities for the rest of them. Just have to wait a bit longer is all.</p>

66

<p>* I remember reading a few years back that the best predictor of whether a student would be a Intel or Siemens finalist is whether one parent is a university professor. Access is certainly an issue.*</p>

<p>Access is certainly an issue, but I also imagine that another effect is simply the parent as "role model." A child who has grown up in a household where one or both parents routinely engage in research is going to have an entirely different mindset about research than someone whose parents are business executives or physicians or auto mechanics.</p>

<p>In effect, growing up around people who do research for a living (much of which may get done at home, at least in some disciplines) "demystifies" research for kids.</p>

<p>Sarah Flannery, an Irish teenager who won international awards for her science project on cryptography, wrote a wonderful book about it, along with her father, a professor who did indeed help her with access to mentors. The book, "In Code," has wonderful descriptions of growing up in a household where she regularly saw her father arguing with colleagues and scribbling away on a blackboard in their kitchen. She didn't understand what they were writing and arguing about, but an important message sank through: research is a messy, mistake-filled process full of blind alleys and dead ends and frustration....but ultimately rewarding when the "eureka!" moment happens.</p>

67

<p>Ok, parents, I have learned from you once again! I appreciate the correction of my naivet</p>

68

<p>jenskate1--I really don't know, but it would appear to me that Stony Brook is unusually welcoming of high school students into their research facilities. I wonder how many universities are really that interested or encouraging of high school students doing research in their facilities?</p>

69

<p>I'm the parent of a child who has great success with science projects done completely by herself in our kitchen :) But there was no way for her to break into that last tier, reserved solely for mentored projects. The rub is that the judging and awards proceed as if all projects are on equal footing. I've said for years that there should be two categories of projects: Independent and Mentored. The kid who does amazing work on her own should have a legit chance at a first place award. The last state fair we attended, the grand prize winner spent every afternoon for an entire year at a hospital lab. His received class credit for his project for 2 science courses and 1 math course (magnet school). My daughter worked on her project for 8 weeks in her "spare time" at home. She did however receive a summer internship with a biotech company after impressing a judge and also won two excellence in research awards totoally $2000. But this can't compare to the money and press given to those mentored projects!</p>

70

<p>mstee - I really don't know either. But how would anyone find out if they don't ask? Until proven otherwise, I still think it's exposure, not proximity.</p>

<p>1ofeach - The separate categories is not a bad idea. Kudos to your daughter! I'd note that very few kids even with their fancy mentored projects win the big awards that get all the press. Trust me, your daughter did much better than most of these kids. Only a few win any money at all.</p>

71

<p>Blossom: do you really think that the tone of anyone on this thread is anti-intellectualism? I would have thought the opposite.</p>

72

<p>Jen, access and mentorship are definitely issues in some places. More importantly, though, many teenagers do not persevere when they encounter indifference or resistance to their requests for assistance. I know this because my D has faced some of those difficulties. </p>

<p>What I do find significant is that kids like you show the curiosity, initiative, and dedication to take full advantage of the opportunities presented. I hope that those accomplishments are not lost in a discussion about the lack of access and the merits of mentorship. Congratulations!</p>

<p>1ofeach, I do relate. A home grown project just does not compare to those performed in labs with a mentor. Two categories sound like a great idea!</p>

73

<p>As the parent of two Intel semifinalists, I think a distinction needs to be made here. Most kids have a mentor. Mine both worked with profs from local colleges who met with them occasionally, helped them evaluate their findings, and pointed out where they needed to go back to the drawing board. However, the mentors are not supposed to be handing them the hypothesis or topic! This is supposed to be initiated by the student and, in my view, that is the sign of a good mentor. In fact, on the Intel app there are big blanks where the mentor is supposed to make an honest statement of exactly who came up with which ideas, did which work, and when. Btw, both my kids chose to do research that did not involve a lab, because we live too far away from a lab in any area that interested them. </p>

<p>I was so disappointed to read that article. Outrageous.</p>

74

<p>So maybe the issue here isn't the Intel program itself, but the way it's administered (or over-administered) at some high schools and the colleges affiliated with them.</p>

<p>This particular school may rue the day they cooperated with this reporter.</p>

<p>OTOH, you'd like to think that the competition judges could recognize where the "mentoring" has gotten out of hand.</p>

<p>Aparent5--two semifinalists, congrats to you!</p>

75

<p>Aparent, it is amazing that you parented 2 semifinalists. Wow! Congratulations.</p>

<p>Out of curiousity, what kind of research projects did they do, that did not involve labs (nor fancy equipment I assume).</p>

<p>

That is exactly what I would expect from a mentor. But if you look at the abstracts of past winners from these brand-name contests, it is quite apparent that there was hand-holding + +</p>

76

<p>Thanks, folks, I ordinarily don't mention such things on here in order to keep a low profile, but that article just made me so furious. Would rather not say more here re my own kids. However, if you look through the Intel site you will see many research projects that clearly were the kids' own ideas and work, and some of these are very creative. For example, I remember reading about a kid who investigated the "lost letter syndrome." He put letters into envelopes, addressed them to himself, sealed, and stamped them, and left them on the ground and in random areas all over three states. Then somehow he evaluated the kind of person who took the trouble to pick them up and mail them. I also read about a girl who was a serious ballet dancer. She was annoyed that dancers have a reputation for not being very bright. She studied young dancers at several major company schools and found that they tended to be excellent students.</p>

<p>I have always wondered how a student might wake up one morning and decide to investigate some of the highly technical topics they do; it takes years to get up on the shoulders of giants, and when a prof hands you the idea and the method, you are getting a very quick boost!</p>

77

<p>Hmmm, the "lost letter project" intrigued me, aparent5, so I did a google search and came up with this very funny first-person account by the lost letter finalist himself:</p>

<p><a href="http://archive.salon.com/books/it/school/2000/03/20/intel/print.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://archive.salon.com/books/it/school/2000/03/20/intel/print.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

78

<p>We'll have to keep an eye out for that screenplay, homeschoolmom. Thanks for the link. I liked his research because it had beauty and simplicity. But then again, I'm a liberal arts person!</p>

79

<p>That is quite a piece of writing! Thanks for the link.</p>

80

<p>I guess it's all a matter of perspective. My S graduated from Stuyvesant HS a year ago and was one of about 120 participants in the Intel program his senior year.</p>

<p>Change a few details here and there and the article could just as easily have been written about Stuy.</p>

<p>As far as I know, every one of the Stuy kids had a mentor, many of whom approached the school and volunteered. In my S's case, he met his mentor on his own while in 9th grade and worked with him for four years. They are still collaborating on a paper that may be published soon.</p>

<p>My S didn't win anything in the Intel (Stuy had 19 semifinalists last year), though he did get a few certificates at local competitions. What he did get, however, was invaluable...an experience that will last him a lifetime. He learned a great deal about a field that he knew nothing about when he started, he learned to do proper research, write a paper, create a prsentation and deliver it.</p>

<p>Those who believe that these kids could not have done their projects on their own are absolutely correct. But I fail to see the point. No top-ranked athlete, musician, performer, writer or anything else did it on their own. It may not be equitable that kids in one school have more resources available to them than another, but that seems to be a pervasive theme throughout the admissions process as it is in life.</p>

<p>Is it fair that kids in some school miles from nowhere in Texas don't even know about the competition when kids in New York are being actively recruited. Of course not. But that doesn't diminish the accomplishment of those kids who participated.</p>

<p>To Apparent5: Frankly, I resent the implication that my S or any of his classmates got a quickboost or a handout. I know for a fact how hard my S worked on his project and I don't doubt that his classmates worked equally hard on theirs.</p>

<p>Much of the criticism leveled here in this thread does a disservice to the students. Many of these projects are so far over our heads that we assume that the kids must have had unreasonable amounts of help. (I watched my S work on his project for four years and still don't understand it.) But that doesn't mean that the help they received was unfair. These kids are high achievers.</p>

<p>There are abuses...but it's unfair to assume that everyone is guilty.</p>