<p>still.................</p>
<p>I'd still like to point out that those students' quotes were likely to be taken wildly out of context in order to paint the picture that the writer was trying to make. Lets give these kids and their mentors a little credit here...</p>
<p>agreed chyln. wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>One of the finalists is a student from our town. I have been reading about her for years. She is truely a brilliant young mathematician. She competes in and wins international math competitions. Her parents are both math professors. Her older brother is also a brilliant mathematician. She lives mathematics. It does not surprise me at all that she is breaking new ground in the thing she is most passionate about. Is it possible she had more help than necessary from her parents? Yes. But I also think it is possible that she did the research herself. Her research is way beyond me, but she understands it and has been able to demonstrate that to others. I admire her.</p>
<p>Here, in contrast to the previous article, is a column in today's NY Timeson NYC public school students who did well in the Intel: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/21/nyregion/21matters.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/21/nyregion/21matters.html</a> It's inspiring.</p>
<p>I liked today's NY Times article (even though I am on record for heartily disapproving of some science fair abuses ). It showed what quality gifted programs can do. Full disclosure: all my kids were in my district's gifted program, but none are what is called "profoundly gifted" - they are just bright kids, with IQs in the 130-135 range. So this isn't about me or my kids. Anyway, I like to see kids like these Intel winners in really good gifted programs. I think America neglects gifted kids (the last data I read said we spend 2 cents out of every 100 dollars - yes cents) on the gifted. No wonder we have to import so many of our science brains!</p>
<ul>
<li>One of the finalists is a student from our town. I have been reading about her for years.</li>
</ul>
<p>Po Ling, huh? Indeed, people on this thread have simply not mentioned math projects - no lab time is needed here, and some of the greatest mathematical ideas have come to people under 20.</p>
<p>tetra - yes, it is Po Ling. I know that she currently attends one of our local public high schools. I think she has attended regular public schools all along.<br>
We don't have much in the way of magnet programs. Yes, she has access to a world class university at UW, but my sense is that she is truely gifted and brilliant individual. She is definitely Intel material in my book.</p>
<p>"
As for the not having the opportunity to do such projects, for most people I don't buy it. Sure, If you don't go to Ward Melville, Montgomery Blair, etc. it is more difficult to do a project like this. But it is not impossible. There are over 3000 universities in the country, the majority have science researchers. There are numerous national laboratories. If a student is driven enough, usually there are opportunities for science research in one's community. Trust me, Ward Melville students do not have access to this equipment in High School - every single one of Ward Melville's 12 semifinalists were mentored by researchers at Stony Brook University."</p>
<p>Right, except the problem with this is that 1) many communities don't have universities (ECU and UNC-W are the nearest universities which actually do some research from where I live, about 1 1/2 and 2 hours respectively), 2) many people who don't know people in academia aren't even aware that universities will actually help students do research, 3) for that matter, most average students aren't even aware that they can do this kind of research, period, 4) the average school isn't going to inform students about contests like Intel or Siemens, 5) you have to have at least <em>some</em> way to get in the door and get to know a prof - if you are shy, and don't have connections, sorry. I didn't even know what the Intel and Siemens competitions were until I came here, and I'm not exactly a slacker.</p>
<p>
[quote]
3) for that matter, most average students aren't even aware that they can do this kind of research, period, 4) the average school isn't going to inform students about contests like Intel or Siemens
[/quote]
</p>
<p>dead on. i went to an amazing public school that's less than fifteen minutes from a MAJOR research university, and even though I was really into science in high school, nobody at my school ever even mentioned the Intel or Siemens competitions. I suppose I sort of knew they existed, and I would have loved to participate, but I didn't think that it was really possible for high schoolers like me to do that sort of research and even if I had, I wouldn't have known how to go about finding a mentor at the university.</p>
<p>Now that I'm at college, research opportunities are much more visible & easier to find, but I still wish I'd had the chance to participate in something like the Intel competition during high school. I think that the accessability of the competition is a problem - perhaps it's more difficult for students without access to research universities to get involved, but even for those of us who are/were in the perfect location for it, the lack of encouragement/information from our schools and teachers can be a really big impediment...</p>
<p>ohnoes, if you are going to quote me and criticize what I wrote, at least do me the courtesy of reading the rest of my posts, where I apologize for me naivete about access to universities and include the following - much of which is similar to what you wrote in your post:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I still maintain though that exposure is more important than proximity. Bandit writes: "I can guarantee you that not a single student in that high school today even knows that Intel sponsors a science competition." That's the real problem! If you don't know an opportunity exists, how can you take advantage of it? There are students near major research locations who don't know about doing research in high school, and so they do not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry to interrupt here - but I'm getting to the point in which e-mailing profs at the local U may be a necessity if I wish to pursue research over the summer. Should I propose a research idea to the prof after reading the prof's webpages or should I simply say that I'm interested in the prof's research and ask the prof to tell me a bit more about his subject? (it seems to be the way in all of the summer science programs, where students only submit research proposals after they're in the program).</p>
<p>I've been looking at the department webpages - I can understand some of it, but not all ofit...</p>
<hr>
<p>Also, should I e-mail a variety of departments? I don't really have a passion...yet, so any scientific field will do and chances are that an entire department might reject me, leaving me to search for another..</p>
<p>--</p>
<p>Edit: trakced post by jen_skate:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dear Dr. so and so:
I am a high school student interested in learning about scientific research. I came across your website recently, and the work that you are doing in your lab sounds very exciting. I read your paper(s), <strong><em><titles here=""></titles></em></strong>, and while I did not understand all of the details, I would like to find about more about your work. Eventually, perhaps next summer, I would like to conduct my own research in your field. Would you possibly be willing to mentor me during this process? If not, I'd appreciate it if you would pass along this letter to your colleagues.
Thank you for your time,
tigeruppercut
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Would reading a website also be just as valid? Also, when is a time to start e-mailing? I still have to wait for summer program notifications until May. However, one may come during April, rendering this unnecessary if accepted (but since I'm rejected from SSP, I dunno)...</p>
<p>I must admit, I haven't read this entire thread, in part because I find the title so offensive. It is one thing to discuss the Stonybrook program, quite another to generalize about the Intel finalists.</p>
<p>My son was a semifinalist. He began his research at a summer program, for which he was selected because of his obvious passion for math. He has been reading about, thinking about and playing with numbers since he was very young. Participants came from every socioeconomic background; there was no charge for the program. These kids are often among the top finishers at Intel (I believe this year there were three in the top ten) and they got there on there own merit. (S did his work on a TI graphing calculator; no fancy lab required.)</p>
<p>Like 1moremom, I have a child who was a semi-finalist a few years back. After finding out about the program in the media, our student decided this looked like great fun. We had never heard of intel and were not encouraging about participating since we had no idea who would be able or willing to serve as mentor. There are no scientists in the family and our public school, with a substandard science program, had never heard of intel till they received the check. Kid found a mentor (without our help) and did a project that used less than $50 worth of equipment and a lot of math (neither parent even took calculus), wrote it up and did all sorts of forms that needed to be in by certain dates, completely without any parental supervision. When my kid asked me to proof the application (my only assistance in the whole process) it did seem to me that intel was taking into account what sort of background the students came from and what resources had been available. I really doubt my kid is unique in this approach to intel.</p>
<p>simfish -
Reading the papers is better in my opinion because it shows a lot more effort. However, it's obviously not mandatory.
I don't see how you could propose a topic right off the bat, so I think it's fine to ask the prof to tell you more about his research, and maybe ask for some suggestions for background reading (review articles are a great place to start). However, if you have a topic in mind, you could ask about it, i think.</p>
<p>However, you probably shouldn't listen to me, since I'm the girl went to WM, where all the cheaters are from :(</p>
<p>DUDE!! I'm going to International Science and Engineering fair in Pheonix, Arizona. I was just working on registering online. My project was "Auto Tracking Devise" mainly for commercial use. Category: Mechanical Engineering. All my was-going-to-be metor stopped contacting me and I was left alone with my dad who is in the field of Industrial Engineering. He doesn't know too much about electrical circuits. Hey~ I got in. First off, we have to be interviewed by the judges in every process. If that 17 year-old girl doesn't know the details, she would be hitting all the road-block-impossible-to-answer questions. Each judging process is 1:30 long and I had to go through 4 of those to get to ISEF. Maybe my project wasn't so cool, but my speaking ability isn't that great either. Maybe it's just because I'm in Wisconsin... idk.. but I have to finish my finalist form. I get to miss a week of school. I hate it. BUT I get to room with this guy who is going to Yale and plays doom chess. ^_^</p>
<p>(this one's for simfish...)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm getting to the point in which e-mailing profs at the local U may be a necessity if I wish to pursue research over the summer. Should I propose a research idea to the prof after reading the prof's webpages or should I simply say that I'm interested in the prof's research and ask the prof to tell me a bit more about his subject?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hey ~ I've been doing this too. I found that professors like it if you've shown some effort/know what you're talking about, so if there's something that strikes you as interesting while you read the prof's webpage, it can't hurt to mention it. </p>
<p>You might find it sort of hard to find a professor who will take you, though (especially if you're near a major research university, the profs are usually oversubscribed w/students who want to come work for them), so if there's anyone who can give you a reference to one of the professors/point you in the right direction, that would be a really good place to start. Like... if any of the teachers/professors at your current school know the professors at the university, ask your current teachers/professors which professors would be most likely to be willing to take you for the summer (sorry if that sentence didn't make too much sense). Failing that, send out LOTS of emails... just don't be surprised if you don't get many replies.</p>
<p>Good luck! :-)</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice! :) I think I'll wait until I see if this rolling summer program accepts me or not (it doesn't look very competitive..). Unfortunately, one science teacher graduate fromthe local univ told me she knew of no one who could take me and she's the most enthusiastic, so........ </p>
<p>
[quote]
Hey ~ I've been doing this too.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>May I ask where are you e-mailing profs? How successful has it been? And have you taken the effort to look at research articles? EDIT: Oh you're a undergrad at Yale so you will have so much more luck. </p>
<p>Hmm, research articles are better, though I probably can't use them as a major resource. My parents are really discouraging me from starting to mass e-mail profs because they think it's going to be a waste of time..... I just e-mailed a research program in Wyoming though - hopefully that will work out even though it doesn't have a website.</p>
<p>A common moral in many stories is that persistence pays off. Hmm.. I still am not so optimistic about my persistence..</p>
<p>jenskate - did you do simons or garcia? i did simons (and intel/lisef/isef) and am now doing brown plme. long island pride!</p>
<p>I also did my research at stony brook, and worked in close collaboration with my mentor. I went to high school on long island, where my high school had a research program. I entered the class as a freshman, and I was the only student who developed a strong project (using snails, of course) in my class of 25 students. The following year, everyone dropped the course and I took research II as an independent study, where I developed my project even further and added other components (snails + magnetic fields!), and finally presented my results at local science fairs. My high school research advisor (who really was the AP bio teacher, but had that title as well) told me about several labs that I could contact for a summer internship. I contacted the professor, sent him my resume, and got the internship relatively easily. I spent an entire summer reading. That's right - they wouldn't hand me down a project. Frustrating as it was, I just read article after article looking for ideas to explore. In the end, I wrote out several experiments that could be performed in the lab on my own, and I am most proud of that achievement. My junior year was spent fine-tuning the experiments that I had written during the summer, and my ap bio teacher would fax my experiments over to stony brook for review. By that spring, I knew I wanted to continue researching and develop an intel project, so I applied for a fellowship from stony brook (I believe they had an acceptance rate of 15% from the pool of 1-2 students nominated from each school), and was lucky enough to get it. I spent that summer finishing my project and submitted it to intel and siemens (i was a semi for both) and won 1st place at the long island science fair and won 2nd at isef. I was able to do well in the fairs because I really saw the beauty in my science, and I loved communicating it. I knew my work like the back of my hand; i could speak about backwards and forwards in my sleep. My science became a clear and beautiful narrative, and not simply the data sheets that the machinery printed out. I was able to take the micro-level data and see the big picture. The science made so much sense to me that I was able to construct new questions based on my own findings, something I still can't believe happened. I fell in love with research through these programs and competitions, and I would do it all over again. (sorry for the length of the post, i am getting a little nostalgic since i have given research a rest during my ugrad years in favor of other academic pursuits.)</p>
<p>That being said, I had a definite advantage over many others. My father is a scientist/physician, and he could have gotten me into a lab (although I wanted to do it without his help). I had a research program that encouraged inquiry. I had a mentor who gave me articles and threw ideas at me. My art teacher helped me make my board. My principal paid for my ticket to the fairs. my ap bio teacher coached me on my presentations. An entire community directly made this possible. There was a secure path leading to success, and I can say that I probably would not have done it had there not been that path. </p>
<p>Although I disagree with the portrait painted by the nytimes article, there is a ring of truth to it; we did have it pretty easy relative to some other students. I remember one day a train on the long island rail road broke down, and a sea of little cookie-cutter nerds on their way to stony brook got of the train. It really is an industry, and it's very competitive. We're not all geniuses, but we worked pretty damn hard to get there.</p>