<p>Maybe it's over the top for someone like me, mere freshman-to-be, to address the top administration - and a website like this is surely not the best way to voice concerns to them. But others may have something to add and if the weight of all of us is enough, maybe somebody who knows how will forward it to the right address. Anyway, here goes...</p>
<p>Lots of us newbies on this site have expressed misgivings about whether or not Penn's engineering/science program has enough horsepower to make us competitive with our peers who will be graduating in a few years from places like (in particular, for some reason) Cornell. I chose Penn for reasons related to its overall quality of education, reputation, location, sense of personal fit, etc. But I'm mainly going to college to study something I really care about - science and math. So I first of all don't want to sacrifice depth of subject coverage, even if it means living in the middle of nowhere for 4 years. I may not make it in senior business management after all, so could be an engineer for the longterm.</p>
<p>What is the administration's mission regarding its commitment to science/math/engineering program, irrespective of its fine Wharton program? Or if this isn't the right question, what is the answer that will reassure those of us feeling a bit uneasy about the technologic depth offered at Penn? Or is this just what is sometimes termed "buyer's remorse"?</p>
<p>No offense but if you’d taken the trouble to look through the engineering career surveys, you’d realize that Penn engineers have an extraodinary breadth of opportunities. Of the small fraction that go to grad school, you will see some people who go to their state universities and some who end up at places like MIT. Of the graduates who found employment upon graduation (the vast majority), many of them ended up in great companies like Accenture, Microsoft, Google, Cisco, Goldman, Citigroup, IBM, Lockheed, Deloitte, Credit Suisse, etc. These companies represent a diversity that ranges from strategy management to finance to science/tech development. So, before even applying, you should have realized that Penn engineering specializes in preparing students to move into the job market upon graduation (and I’m assuming that many engineers take Wharton classes in addition to those required by their major and that this is the reason for their remarkably good fortunes in landing jobs in industries outside of engineering). And then, of course, there are graduates who end up with less reputable jobs. So, the takeaway is that Penn positions you to get into great grad schools like MIT and great companies like Goldman, but it all depends on the effort put in by the student. Also, because fewer students interested in pure science careers apply, the competition in classes is also somewhat ‘tame’ compared to MIT/Stanford/Caltech/Cornell. Penn presents you with the opportunity to get where you want to be…be it a high-paying (well maybe :)) job on Wall Street or a life in academia as a professor/researcher, but you still have to put in the effort to get there and that will always be the case, even after college.</p>
<p>no offense taken. wouldn’t have started this except there are more than a few other threads voicing similar concerns. not to mention a barrage of drivel from cornellian and others ■■■■■■■■ the advantages of cornell’s eng dept. as for effort, we all understand this is required for success in any tech discipline.</p>
<p>Look, if you’re really having second thoughts about going to Penn b/c a bunch of morons storm our board and start spouting rubbish, then maybe you don’t belong there. Why don’t you just go to Cornell or transfer or whatever? In all likelihood, the outcome will be the same because they are both Ivies and they’ll both get you the opportunities. When you crack the top 15 schools in this country, the exact school starts to matter less and the amount of effort you yourself put in, as well as your ambition, start to matter much more. Can you get into a better grad school than Harvard/Stanford/MIT/Wharton? At least one person from Penn SEAS was accepted to each one of those schools last year. Can you get a better job out of college than one at McKinsey/Goldman/Google? At least one person from Penn SEAS found a job at each of those companies last year. The question one must ask at that point is not if Penn can provide the opportunities, but if you are talented enough to utilize them to their full potential.</p>
<p>Do you really think that in the very, very, very unlikely case that you got a response to your letter, any of the following two things would happen:</p>
<p>(i) Gutmann replies ‘no, we don’t really have a strong commitment to technology, you’re better off going to Cornell’
(ii) Gutmann replies ‘we have the strongest commitment to technology,’ and you believe her with no hesitation</p>
<p>?</p>
<p>Didn’t think so.</p>
<p>Then, your proposal is worthless, to use a kind adjective.</p>
<p>doesn’t SEAS have at least a thousand - two thousand kids who are currently attending? i think it’d be more appropriate for them to address this “issue”…if, in fact, there is an issue with the penn science/tech/eng departments. from what i know, penn engineering is great, and the only place where it’s really “overshadowed” by wharton is CC.</p>
<p>i still cannot believe that you’re buying into the opinions of a few ■■■■■■ on CC. i guess the cornellian ■■■■■■ have been pretty convincing.</p>
<p>“the cornellian ■■■■■■ have been pretty convincing”
well, it has been kinda one-sided lately. but i didn’t like cornell at all when i was there. maybe that’s what you really need to know before you decide, for reasons of your own.</p>
<p>That’s because the people usually defending Penn are exasperated and because it has degenerated into petty arguing. Is there even a point to debating it? You said it yourself, people should visit as well as do their research and then make up their minds.</p>
<p>While Penn may not have the reputation for being pure math/science nerds, if your goal is to learn as much as possible in those fields, <em>trust</em> me you will be challenged. My friend came from the same high school as me and was typical really smart math/science guy and went into engineering. Obviously multivariable was a piece of cake for him, but his honors physics class is giving him real trouble. Honestly look up Penn’s engineering science and math professors, they’ve started to put even more money to improve what are already stellar departments. Maybe the standard classes are easier, but if you want to challenge yourself there will be no lack of opportunities to do so. Take the complex analysis course with Dean DeTurck and do some research before questioning Penn’s programs</p>
<p>nj<em>azn</em>premed’s on the right track. us current Penn engineering students have gotten pretty bored with all the stupid ■■■■■■■■ that happens on this site</p>
<p>Believe it or not, Amy Gutmann is very receptive to emails. She will email back if you send her one! She loves hearing opinions. She’s a good person. So go for it if you want to email her.</p>
<p>But here’s her response:
“College rankings are done by how many people respond to surveys in what way. Penn engineering is a relatively small school, so there are not many people with whom to respond. On the other hand, Cornell engineering is a gigantic school, and everyone responds. The only reason that we even register on the engineering rankings compared to engineering-centric universities such as Cornell is because the students that do the surveys rate us as high as possible.”</p>
<p>I know - because this question has been asked so many times that this email has its own email template in gutmann’s computer.</p>
<p>^no body knows because penn does not release the IQRs for the individual schools. The true answer is that they are either equally selective, or Cornell is more selective. The SAT math IQR for Cornell engineers is 730-790, which aligns with the MIT IQR of 730-800 IIRC. I am not saying that Cornell = MIT, but I am saying that if Penn SEAS was to be notably more selective than Cornell, it would need to be at least as selective as MIT.</p>