<p>Hey guys....
I am looking at choosing HC versus another research university.
I got the finaid package... 10K grant... so lowers parent's cost to 41K ( in texas)</p>
<p>So do you guys think HC worth spending that much for pre-med... or to save it for med school??? (PS: other school is Case Western in Cleveland)
Yes.. I know the differences b/t those schools.
Thanks
Andy</p>
<p>HC is 51,000/year??!!</p>
<p>Regarding the natural sciences, pre-med and research, for the many many reasons I listed in the past, you'd be hard pressed to find a better LAC for these things. HC use to be without comparison for pre-med because the former pre-med advisor was a professor of medicine at Penn as well as the daughter of the Chair of Medicine at Johns Hopkins (makes her "academic medicine royalty") while EVERY other LAC had a PhD/non-clinician as pre-med advisor. For 25 years, the advice and (occasional) strings she pulled for students was wonderful! She retired last year, so you have to "settle for" Hc having the only NIH lab among LACs (2 of them actually, one being the only human stem cell lab among LACs), a president who has an MD/PhD from Yale and having 2 MDs teach in the bio department. While the new pre-med advisor doesn't have clinical experience, she was a senior career counselor at Penn before coming to HC, so she's pretty good and experienced as well.</p>
<p>I really think it's a personal choice for you. You don't need to go to an expensive college/university to go to medical school. You don't have to go to a name brand medical school to become a caring and competent MD as well. I believe though that a college education isn't just to get you into a professional school and a HC experience and education are unique. </p>
<p>If the <em>sole</em> reason you are considering HC is for it's sciences and pre-med, you probably shouldn't go and give your spot to someone else who may immerse themselves more in the experience. While HC may be top of the heap with the natural sciences/research/pre-med, the resources at other great schools are more than adequate. You don't need to work in an NIH lab to learn undergrad bio... although it's a bragging rite. :)</p>
<p>BTW, if you are a primary care MD in private practice, you'll basically work 4 days seeing patients, one day for paper work and make about $150,000-175,000 annually and with excellent job security. Other physician types make more, some make less (ie. academic pediatrics), but all enough to provide you a comfortable life.</p>
<p>Yeah, HCAlum, you're right. and also... Here's another point you did not mention in those sciences post ( not to correct you or anything...) But I looked at the course catalog under the Bio department.... and interestingly, most of the courses that I find in the senior year are all tutorial or thesis-driven courses... So there wasn't many courses that research universities divide into different courses ( like genetics or molecular biology or zoology (if that exists...)). Thus I am assuming that HC crams a lot of those specific course's basic topics into Bio 200. So I can see why Bio 200 is "hard." And also HC Alum, yes the tuition for HC is that high... but I did get 10K for grants this year and 2K in federal work-loan. And yes, I have read all your posts about HC's phenomenal science program. But I think I might have to pass...</p>
<p>BTW, why would people to to an LAc for the sciences??? Aren't they more well-known for humanities, etc?</p>
<p>"BTW, why would people to to an LAc for the sciences??? Aren't they more well-known for humanities, etc?"</p>
<p>Well, I won't use names here, but let's say I ran into the president of a prestigious university, located in a mid-atlantic state and asked for a recommendation for a daughter interested in science. This person emphatically said "not my university!!!!!" suggesting instead a school where my daughter would be mentored. The three schools mentioned were Haverford, Carleton and Reed.
Universities definitely have resources, but they are also less interested in student success than an LAC. A smaller school permits earlier participation in research for a larger percentage of students, and a closer, more mentor-like relationship with the professors. Your mileage may definitely vary here.</p>
<p>Why study science at a LAC?</p>
<p>First, to be blunt, not all LACs have the same sophistication with the sciences as HC, so this can't be generalized. </p>
<p>Science is about mentorship and collaboration and this culture is HC's forte. Ariel Lowey, my research mentor, discovered factor 13 (the enzyme that cross-links blood clots and makes them insoluble) while at HC. I use to go over to his house 2x a year for dinner and we would also sometimes go to a local bar and have a beer as well. We'd talk about science, research but also politics and art. There's something very special with a young person having this kind of mentorship at a young age... to be listened to and respected... science is about nurturing new ideas and having a mentor-scientist like Ariel does that. It makes you fearless.</p>
<p>Steve E talks about Ariel
Haverford</a> College: Presidential Inauguration</p>
<p>Also, the most valuable tools you can bring to a science/medical career is not fact knowledge that only grow obsolete with time. The sciences at HC are very hands on and what is taught at a LAC (high volume work, research skills, writing skills, collaboration, analytical thinking, public speaking) is what is most important for a scientist. At large universities, most classes are taught in very large and anonymous lectures and are passive. By comparison, almost all of HC's sciences are in small seminar where students can ask questions, propose answers, work in small group and present research topics or have a lab component. Also, when visiting professors come to HC (no matter how famous), it is the undergrads who 1st have the floor to pose the questions... not grad students and not the faculty.</p>
<p>Not sure if I understand your other point about the senior tutorials. Bio 200provides an overview of molecular biology and basic lab techniques and junior year is spent acquiring more sophisticated lab experience and advanced bio knowledge. Senior year is spent applying what you have learned to a specific research project and attending visiting scholar seminars. I'm not sure what you find bad about this, it seems reasonable to me. The junior year seminars are pretty advanced and are taught senior year at large universities where there is less of a research component to occupy one's time senior year. Parts of bio 200 are taught junior year at many other lacs and universities.</p>
<p>I think not going to HC is a good choice for you. Not everyone learns the same way and not everyone values the same things in a college experience.</p>
<hr>
<p>301 Advanced Genetic Analysis NA
P.Meneely
The molecular mechanisms governing the transmission, mutation and expression of genes. Particular emphasis is placed on the use of experimental genetic methods to analyze other areas of biology. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or its equivalent or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>302 Cell Architecture NA
K.Johnson
An examination of cellular structure and function. Topics include the cytoplasmic matrix and the endomembrane system, with particular emphasis upon the dynamic qualities of living cells. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or its equivalent or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>303 Structure and Function of Macromolecules NA
R.Fairman
A study of the structure and function of proteins, including enzymes, assembly systems and proteins involved in interactions with nucleic acids and membranes. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and Chemistry 221 or equivalent to be taken previously or concurrently or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>304 Biochemistry: Metabolic Basis of Disease and Adaptation NA
J.Punt
This course will introduce students to advanced biosynthetic processes associated with carbohydrate, nucleic acid, protein and lipid metabolism. A coverage of the pathways and the experiments which defined them will be accompanied by discussions of their direct relevance to disease, abnormality and evolutionary adaptation. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and Chemistry 221 or equivalent to be taken previously or concurrently or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>306 Inter- and Intra-Cellular Communication NA
Staff
A study of the mechanisms by which individual cells in a multicellular organism communicate via the exchange of molecular signals. The course will focus on the release of "molecular messengers," their interactions with specific receptor-bearing target cells of appropriate responses such as increased metabolic activity and/or cell division. Considerable attention is paid to the biochemistry of plasma and internal cell membranes and pathways are discussed from a disease perspective. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or its equivalent or consent of instructor.
307 The Cell in Development NA
P.Meneely
The development of selected model organisms, both invertebrate and vertebrate, is used to examine the principles of fertilization, cleavage, gastrulation, morphogenesis, and pattern formation. Mechanisms by which genetic information is stored, segregated and activated during cell determination and differentiation are explored. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 301 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>308 Immunology NA
J.Owen
This course will provide an introduction to the rapidly expanding discipline of immunology. Students will learn about the molecular and cellular basis of the immune response through the study of the genetics and biochemistry of antigen receptors, the biochemistry of immune cell activation, the cell physiology of the immune system, immune memory, immune tolerance induction and immune-mediated cell death. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>309 Molecular Neurobiology NA
A.Morris
This course will focus on molecular approaches to study nervous system development, function and pathology. Topics including the generation of neurons and glia, electrical signaling, learning and memory and Alzheimer's disease will be discussed using examples from a variety of model systems. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>310 Molecular Microbiology NA
I.Okeke
A study of prokaryotic biology with emphasis on cell structure, gene organization and expressions, which will incorporate selected readings from the primary literature. Topics include the bacterial and viral cell structure, the genetics of bacteria and bacteriophage, gene regulation, horizontal gene transfer and microbial genomics. The course will be taught via lecture, class presentation and discussion, and workshops. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and Chem 221a or consent of the instructor.</p>
<p>312 Development & Evolution NA
R.Hoang
This course introduces important links between developmental and evolutionary biology. Genetic changes that produce variations between organisms are an important aspect of evolutionary change. Since development can be viewed as the process that links genetic information to the final form of an organism the fields of development and evolution clearly impact one another. We will look at Drosophila and zebrafish, where developmental mechanisms have been elucidated in remarkable detail. We will then look beyond these model systems to comparative studies that examine development in a range of organisms. We will consider how these comparative studies provide insight into evolutionary mechanisms and how underlying differences in development may account for the differences we see between organisms. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>330 Laboratory in Neural and Behavioral Science: Molecular Development NA
A.Morris
A half-semester lab course introducing molecular and cellular approaches to understanding the development of the nervous system. A variety of model organisms will be used to investigate neural induction, patterning, neural crest cell migration and axon guidance. Prerequisite: Biology 200 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>ADVANCED HALF-SEMESTER COURSES IN MOLECULAR, CELLULAR, AND DEVELOPMENTAL BIOLOGY OF WHICH THREE OR FOUR ARE OFFERED IN ANY ONE YEAR</p>
<p>350 Pattern Formation in the Nervous System NA
A.Morris
A fundamental process in the development of the vertebrate nervous system is the partitioning of the nervous system into distinct domains of cellular differentiation, for example the brain vs. the spinal cord. This seminar course will explore, through a series of student research article presentations, the molecular processes by which pattern is established in the nervous system and the morphological consequences of improper patterning. Human birth defects and pathologies such as spina bifida and brain tumors will be used as case studies to discuss the role of crucial patterning genes and signaling molecules. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 300b or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>351 Molecular Motors and Biological Nano-Machines NA
K. Johnson
The world of the cell contains a rich array of molecular machinery that carries out life's dynamic processes. Interdisciplinary studies of these mechanisms employing a variety of biological, chemical and physical approaches are revealing a wealth of detail spanning from visible phenomenon to the scale of atoms and molecules. Extensive reading of the primary literature will be used as a basis for student-led discussions. Topics will be selected from a list including viral assembly, cellular clocks, mechanoenzyme engines, biosynthetic machinery and the assembly and regulation of cytoskeletal arrays. These model systems provide novel insights into how work is accomplished (and regulated) in a nano-scale environment and serve as model systems for the development of microtechnologies for science and medicine. Prerequisite: Biology 302 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>352 Cellular Immunology NA
J.Owen
Topics include description and classification of the cells and tissues of the immune system; cell collaboration in the immune response; transplantation antigens and their role in graft rejection and recognition of virally-infected cells; immune tolerance; lymphokines. There will be student presentations of articles in the original immunological literature, followed by critical discussion. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 300b or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>353 Apoptosis: A Matter of Life and Death NA
J.Punt
Cell death is as important to an organism as cell differentiation and proliferation. In order to shape organs, limbs, and digits, form neural pathways, build a useful repertoire of specificities in the immune system, and start and stop inflammatory reactions, an organism needs to be able to regulate cell death via a highly regulated process we call apoptosis. A lack of regulation between cell death and proliferation underlies many disease states, including cancer and AIDS. In this course we will explore current advances in our understanding of the molecular basis for cell death (apoptosis), its regulation, its relationship to cell differentiation and proliferation, and its role in disease processes. The material will be presented in seminar format where primary literature will be read extensively and students will take the lead in the discussion and debate of current controversies. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 300b or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>354 Computational Genomics NA
P.Meneely
Complete or nearly complete DNA sequences are available for the genomes of hundreds of species, including humans. Computer-based comparisons between DNA sequences of two different genes or two different species are now routinely used in biological research. This course will examine the biological and evolutionary basis of sequence comparisons, as well as introducing the students to the statistical foundations for such comparisons. The format will involve both lectures and in-class work done at the computer. Potential topics include: evolution of DNA sequences; pairwise comparison of two sequences or one sequence with a large number of sequences; alignment of sequences; identification of domains or motifs within proteins; gene structure identification from a DNA sequence; and a large scale genome comparisons. Prerequisite: Biology 301 or consent of instructor; Biology 303 recommended; student should be comfortable with statistical reasoning and high school algebra.</p>
<p>355 Signal Transduction and Cell Biology NA
J.Punt or J.Wagner
Seminar course that covers major areas of current interest in the field of cell signaling biochemistry and biology. Topics include: 1) cell surface receptor structure and function, 2) heterotrimeric and oncogenesis: covers present-day thinking on dysregulation of signaling pathways and how this leads to the development of various types of cancers. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 300b or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>357 Protein Design NA
R.Fairman
This course will take a quantitative approach to the study of protein folding and protein structure using the primary research literature. We will particularly focus on these issues as they relate to function. Topics will include protein: DNA interactions, protein: protein interactions, and chaperones and their role in protein folding. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 300b or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>358 Developmental Genetics NA
R.Hoang
This course will examine the structure of sex chromosomes, and how differences in sex chromosome constitution give rise to the familiar morphological differences between males and females. The emphasis will be on the genetic and molecular basis of sex determination, using the primary research literature. Model organisms will include invertebrates such as Caenorhabditis elegans and Drosophila melanogaster and vertebrates such as placental and non-placental mammals and reptiles. Prerequisite: Biology 301 or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>360 Bacterial Pathogenesis NA
I.Okeke
The course will begin with lectures to overview current concepts in bacterial pathogenesis. Initial readings will be taken from texts or reviews on the subject, and the rest of the course will consist of focused discussions on current research in the field and student presentations on the primary literature. Prerequisite: Biology 200 and 300b or consent of instructor.</p>
<p>How is Haverford for chemistry, math & music?</p>
<p>"BTW, why would people to to an LAc for the sciences??? Aren't they more well-known for humanities, etc?"</p>
<p>Many LACs do a fine job in sciences. Here (first posted by interesteddad) are the top 60 (many LACs!) undergrad schools at producing future PhDs in sciences:</p>
<p>Percentage of grads getting PhDs</p>
<p>Academic field: All Engineering, Hard Science, and Math</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>
<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period</p>
<p>1 34% California Institute of Technology<br>
2 24% Harvey Mudd College
3 16% Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
4 10% Reed College<br>
5 9% Rice University
6 8% Swarthmore College<br>
7 8% Princeton University<br>
8 7% Carleton College<br>
9 7% New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology<br>
10 7% University of Chicago<br>
11 7% Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute<br>
12 7% Case Western Reserve University
13 6% Harvard University<br>
14 6% Carnegie Mellon University<br>
15 6% Johns Hopkins University<br>
16 6% Haverford College<br>
17 6% Grinnell College<br>
18 6% Cornell University, All Campuses<br>
19 5% Kalamazoo College<br>
20 5% Stanford University
21 5% Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
22 5% Yale University
23 5% Cooper Union<br>
24 5% Oberlin College
25 5% Lawrence University
26 5% Bryn Mawr College<br>
27 5% Williams College<br>
28 5% Pomona College<br>
29 4% Colorado School of Mines<br>
30 4% Bowdoin College
31 4% Earlham College
32 4% Brown University<br>
33 4% University of Rochester
34 4% University of California-Berkeley<br>
35 4% Wabash College<br>
36 4% Duke University
37 4% Worcester Polytechnic Institute
38 4% Amherst College
39 4% Stevens Institute of Technology
40 4% St Olaf College
41 4% Hendrix College
42 4% Beloit College<br>
43 4% University of Missouri, Rolla<br>
44 4% University of California-San Francisco<br>
45 4% Occidental College<br>
46 4% Alfred University, Main Campus<br>
47 4% Allegheny College<br>
48 4% Whitman College
49 4% College of Wooster<br>
50 4% SUNY College of Environmental Sci & Forestry<br>
51 4% Mount Holyoke College<br>
52 4% Bates College<br>
53 4% College of William and Mary
54 4% Knox College<br>
55 3% Franklin and Marshall College<br>
56 3% Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus<br>
57 3% Washington University<br>
58 3% Long Island University Southampton Campus<br>
59 3% Macalester College<br>
60 3% University of California-San Diego</p>
<p>Yeah, HCAlum, I do agree with your opinions. I thought the Bio 200 class was a little too condensed for me. (I think they covered too much subject, you can say, within that curriculum time period.)</p>
<p>How is chemistry? D1 will be graduating as an organic chem major. She heard early from 3 doctoral programs: USC, BC, BU, and JHU. After much thought and a long conversation with her Prof/Advisor today, she will be committing to BC for the strength of its program and the passion of their grad students. From what I understand, only 3 other chem seniors have applied directly to grad/professional schools. Of those 3, one was admitted to the MD/Phd program at Columbia and the other was accepted to NW, UCB, and Stanford. Their early admitts were impressive.</p>
<p>Xtra- you'll be fine at Case. It's a great school. You may have to be a little more pro-active with getting attention from the faculty but that's fine and that's an important skill to develop as well.</p>
<p>Chemistry? According to chemistry majors, it's even better than bio and physics at HC which are <strong>great</strong>. Alumni include the 1st American Nobel prize winner in chemistry, the former chair of chemistry at MIT and Johns Hopkins (both 5-10 years ago), the current head of biomedical research at Johns hopkins and the current president of HC!</p>
<p>Haverford</a> College: Department of Chemistry : Welcome
Department</a> of Chemistry : Haverford College</p>
<p>Don't know much about math as Calc I/II were enough for me. I have math major friends though who were accepted to Harvard and MIT but chose HC so the math department has to be somewhat decent. Here's a resume from one faculty member... a summa grad of Harvard and a Churchill scholar.</p>
<p>I don't know much about the music department other than 2 of my friends were music majors. One went to Julliard for piano after HC and the other is in ophtho residency now.
Department</a> of Music :: Haverford College
Department</a> of Music :: Haverford College</p>
<p>Thanks Vossron for your post and input.</p>
<p>Just to clarify one <strong>important</strong> point. The phd production list was developed by Thom Cech (head of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute) to say that, as a category, top LACs produce the same rate of PhDs as elite research universities if we are to use PhD production as a proxy for preparation for a research career. </p>
<p>It is NOT MEANT to be used to rank one school over another as it doesn't have the power to do so. It can only be used to say there's no difference between types of school.</p>
<p>Thanks hc Alum.</p>
<p>Thanks too.</p>