<p>The musicians I described, for instance, at Harvard, have never made music a sideline. In fact, a few are at Juilliard and other top conservatories for grad work, or touring internationally, or in one case, conducting. These were kids who did not do the double degree with NEC. So I was just describing a different path for combining academics and music.</p>
<p>For a music major, we were actually advised that for less money we could accomplish the same goals as a double degree by simply paying for private lessons with faculty at the conservatory while our daughter attended university.</p>
<p>It sounds like your daughter wants the BA/BM package, so to speak. That will be five years, and hard work, but if she is passionate she will enjoy it as much as others have. Has she considered a BA/MM?</p>
<p>@compmom, thanks for the link. 5 years for the dual is not an issue; she’s relatively young. Hard work is to be expected! The BA/MM is interesting, but it’s a different path. A 5 year BA/BM/MM would have lots of appeal, I’m sure – but might kill her parents in the process. </p>
<p>Interesting thoughts on the conservatory lessons. Is that what your daughter ended up doing? I don’t think its what my d is looking for, but it does sound interesting. How would it address all the other aspects (performance classes, theory, history, ensembles for majors, etc.)? It would definitely be good for technique and rep, but not, perhaps for the collegiality that comes from being in a program with others… still…interesting approach. For someone not seeking a solo career, I wonder how that would play out. So many connections are made participating in programs…</p>
<p>Hi! I wanted to report back on impressions of the Lawrence Symphony Orchestra after having the opportunity to hear their first concert of the season. I was very impressed with the Orchestra. They played a very polished beautiful concert. They have a big, bold, full sound. I was especially impressed by the rich sound of the strings. I thought the Orchestra as a whole was very strong and I didn’t notice any weaknesses, all the soloists played very well and every section seemed to hold their own. They play in a very beautiful old refurbished chapel, very nice space. I wouldn’t call it a complaint but I would love to hear them play in a larger space just to see what they could do because their big sound easily filled this somewhat smaller space. I really don’t know why Lawrence is so unknown except maybe for its somewhat out of the way location. Each time I have visited I am more and more impressed with the school and town.</p>
<p>Some students do exactly what compmom said, a girl my son knows is graduating from an Ivy, and is applying to grad schools in music. There kids he knows at Columbia who take lessons with private teachers and for ensemble work do things like New York Youth Symphony, which is very, very high level (personally, I think it is easily as good as any of the top conservatory orchestras I have heard), so there are alternative paths. </p>
<p>That said, it also depends on the student and their background. A lot (not all, but a lot) of the kids I have seen do that path, with the private teacher while doing academics in college, go in already well prepared in things like ensemble playing and at a high level on their instrument, these often are kids who were in top level pre college programs, were already playing at a level high enough to win international competitions and such, so ‘missing’ the BM experience wasn’t necessarily a big deal…</p>
<p>A lot depends on the student, too. I have seen parents pushing their kids into academic programs, telling their kids they can still study with a teacher, etc, to have the degree for a ‘real job’, and I also have seen that fail, because for the kid that didn’t work, that they needed the ensemble work, the other classes, and being around the other music students to be motivated and drive forward…if the kid is self motivated and otherwise won’t miss it, the other path can work, but it all depends on the kid, and one of the key lessons for music is much like the teaching aspects, what works for one may not work for another.A kid can go to a second tier program and thrive, because of who they are, someone can study with a teacher and get pushed forward and someone else looks at that teacher and says “they stink”, and they are both right. It is why it is always important to look at the whole picture and at the student, what works for one may not work for others,what once worked years ago may not work today; a school that was great 20 years ago might be living off its reputation, not reality. It is what makes this all so ‘fun’, digging through the slag to find the gems within:)</p>
<p>College music departments offer theory, aural skills, music history, ethnomusicology, composition and combinations of music and technology. Instrumentallists can play in extracurricular ensembles and orchestra or, as suggested above, take advantage of opportunities outside of school, or even tour. It is true that the students I have in mind were very high level, one playing in Europe and another in China during undergrad years, for example. They continued with the teachers they already had I believe, though others started with a new teacher from the conservatory that they might have had in a double degree program otherwise.</p>
<p>I just want to be clear that I am a big fan of the conservatory route. I am describing other options in the context of a student who wants to study things other than music. For those who want to focus entirely on music, I think that is a wonderful path and do not think worries about career “backups” and so on are a good reason to do dual degrees. In the case of listenmissy’s daughter it appears there is genuine interest in both music and academics and there are a few different ways to combine them.</p>
<p>My own daughter was opposed to double degrees and applied to both conservatories and colleges, then decided late in senior year, but she is primarily a composer. I have been describing one path taken by musicians she respects.</p>
<p>As musicprnt says, every individual is different.</p>
<p>Thanks for your posts, @compmom. I can see both sides of the conservatory only vs dual-degree argument, and I agree it depends on the musician and his or her background. One thing I also would want to make clear is that, in our d’s situation, the BA part of this equation is not a “back up plan” – it is simply the path she is interested in, even knowing how much work may be involved. I’ve seen students go off and being pressured by their parents to do, say, Music Ed “because at least you can work,” when what they really want is Performance. Assuming they play at the level to pursue a performance degree, it seems a disservice to the student. I know of one violinist who went that route and was so unhappy with the Mus.Ed. path that they really lost their way, took extra time and ended up with a BA, and now is having to work extra hard to make up for the gaps, in hopes of pursuing a MM in performance. </p>
<p>I appreciate all the input, and will be interested to see what Lawrence is like in person.</p>
<p>@ compmom-
Conservatory is simply a path, one that is common and has its own particular strengths and weaknesses, like anything else. For example, you are correct that universities without performance programs will have music departments that offer theory, history, ear training and so forth, will have ensembles, and that can work. The thing with that is the student has to be motivated to take those classes, in a conservatory they are required, are part of the track, but to someone doing a BA in something those classes would be ‘extras’ that would need to be fit into their schedule and such, and unless extremely motivated might skip the bother; or the school orchestra and ensembles may not be very good, depending on the level of the kids in it or the conductor (same is true, of course, of music schools with performance majors…). Again, it all depends on the student and their needs and what they are like:)</p>
<p>LIstenmissy I particularly emphasized that your daughter has genuine interest in other subjects.</p>
<p>At schools without distribution requirements (such as Brown, Amherst, some alternative schools like Bennington) it is possible to do music and another subject for one degree, whether double major, major or minor or a looser arrangement with one major, and still take plenty of theory, music history and so on.</p>
<p>But yes, depending on the school, the quality of campus music organizations and off campus opportunities, the experience can vary.</p>
<p>My older son is currently a junior at Lawrence (I used to be trumpetguysmom here, have switched “handles” for second child). DS LOVES Lawrence. He initially intended to do the dual degree program with physics as his BA, but discovered (as many science majors do) that it’s very difficult to be at both ensemble practice and science lab at the same time. One of the great things about Lawrence’s conservatory (as opposed to some others) is that there’s no “ceiling” in terms of ensembles or groups–there are no reserved groups for majors. If you want to play in the Orchestra or LUJE (the top jazz band) and have the skills, you are welcome, no matter what. </p>
<p>Also, Lawrence is a top notch liberal arts college. They have all of the advantages of a small school–small class size, teacher attention, lots of student involvement, and because they are really only an undergraduate school the students have lots of opportunities to TA for professors, do research, etc., which undergrads at large schools don’t always have. There’s only 300 kids in the Con, which means plenty of opportunities to play for everyone.</p>
<p>Plus–Lawrence kids are really nice. DS has found a good group of friends, both musicians and others, he’s involved with the music fraternity and is really having a great experience socially as well as academically.</p>
<p>Let me also say that we picked Lawrence because of the top notch music there. The faculty are all talented performers and teachers, the rep they play in both classical and jazz is challenging–they have a new music festival every year which is very good. The suggestion to go look at their webcasts is a good one–they have a lot of stuff up there and it’s a good place to start. They also have a Jazz Weekend every November–this year it’s November7-8-9 and I would suggest checking it out if you can.</p>
<p>In terms of why you haven’t heard of Lawrence, I would say it’s maybe a product of Midwestern modesty. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions!</p>
<p>Our daughter is a sophomore dual degree student at Lawrence (clarinet performance and math). She LOVES it there. We are also east coast folks and had not heard of Lawrence prior to reading about it in CTCL. When I asked my D’s private teacher if she had heard of it, it turned out that her roommate from Ithaca had transferred to Lawrence to pursue dual degree many years ago. She was a vocal performance major at Ithaca College and taking biology classes at Cornell, so no slouch. She has gone on to have a career in opera BTW. Anyway, Lawrence was the “weird” school that stayed on my daughter’s list (it was the only school not on the east coast). We did not visit until her audition in the Winter (for economic reasons as well as figuring it would be a good time to see the campus at it’s “worst” weather wise). I can not emphasize enough the friendliness and the welcoming vibe that we felt when we went there.There is just something special about Lawrence. I’m glad if you are going to visit and she can see for herself. Other posters have given good advice to listen to concerts online and you can also google (dean of the con) Brian Pertl to get a sense of his philosophy. There is also a video series called “This Is Lawrence” that you can view (and see the beauty of Bjorklunden and the rest of the campus. I think the “Lawrence Difference” /humor comes through too). I have asked the same question myself (being a cynical New Yorker, haha). I chalk it up to the location and the (previously mentioned) mid-West-modesty factor. Or maybe it’s simply Lawrence modesty! We recently toured Oberlin with our other daughter and there was not much modesty. If they mentioned they were an “all Steinway school” one more time we all thought our heads would explode. The Oberlin catalog says something like they are the only all undergraduate dual degree program in the country (not true). Lawrence has a lot to be proud of but they don’t show off. Personally, I feel that the location of Lawrence is superior to Oberlin in that it is a small city and there is an airport right there. Google “Mile of Music” festival and you can see Appleton. Yes, it’s cold there- but this past Winter there was more snow here in New York than there was out there. When our D. was flying back after Winter break and airports were closing due to the “polar vortex”, Lawrence families were picking up students at Chicago, Milwaulkee, Minneapolis and helping them out! There is a community that is unique. Let her see for herself, but for our daughter it has been a perfect fit and I am a huge fan. </p>
<p>Not a music parent here but one of my best friends’ sons is in the dual-degree program at Lawrence. He is an extremely accomplished musician and had his choice of a number of conservatory options. He studies with a well-known professor in his area and really gets to live and breathe music while still getting a great liberal arts education at the same time. His parents are Ivy-educated parents and one is a department chair at a major research university. They can’t say enough good things about their experience with Lawrence.</p>
<p>Thank you Lawrence parents. I think we are simply going to have to visit in the spring (though I do like the idea of seeing it in the winter… that said, we need to be able to get home!). We recently started with school visits and I must say there is nothing like being on campus and actually seeing a place with one’s own eyes. I am looking forward to it. And I agree @clarinet13mom – that was quite the write-up!</p>
<p>Haha-yeah, I get emotional…you know, when your kid is happy, you are happy! Please keep us posted after your Springtime trip. Who knows-it could STILL snow in the Spring! My daughter is a room host and would be happy to answer questions when you are there if you like-PM me. I know when we planned our trip out there they were very accomodating and arranged a sample lesson. Students from the studio met her for lunch too. At the risk of being too gushing, seeing what sally305 said, we too have a friend who is a dept chair at Bard and raves about Lawrence. He was a PhD at MIT. Lawrence’s newish president was former VP at Princeton. We do all the bragging so Lawrence can stay modest. </p>
<p>listenmissy, I wouldn’t overstate the difficulty of getting to and from Appleton. It’s not the Arctic Circle. And the upper midwest deals with winter better than more temperate climates that don’t have as much of it.</p>
<p>In any case, if you are flying anywhere you are going to be affected by weather patterns all over the country, especially if you are traveling through hubs.</p>
<p>Thanks @sally305 – it looks like the easiest thing to do (for us, flying out of a regional airport) is to get a direct flight to Chicago and then drive. The cost difference for more than one person to fly to Appleton is /way/ more than the cost to rent a car for a couple of days… and there is no time savings, thanks to the layovers. </p>
<p>We do get the weather issues… my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek ;)</p>
<p>haha-not the Arctic Circle-love it. We had good luck once flying into MIDWAY Chicago and renting car from there. That is cheapest, you are right. Can also investigate Minneapolis/St. Paul which is a longer drive but a nice, reliable airport. Lots of options!</p>
<p>Milwaukee is the closest. I’m from Milwaukee and it’s a 1 and 1/2 hour drive from there. Three from Chicago, where I now live. We visited in late April and it was snowing but drivable. They also made mention that Appleton does have an airport. I mean really!? </p>
– but might kill her parents in the process. </p>
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions!</p>