<p>I'm probably not the only one who will have to decide between Lawrence, Oberlin and Bard for their BA/BM double degree programs, so it would be great if we could start a discussion about the pros and cons of each college/conservatory.</p>
<p>Prestige-wise, I think Oberlin is the most established and respected among the three in both college and conservatory (correct me if I'm wrong).</p>
<p>Lawrence claims to have a better integration between college and conservatory than Oberlin, and I think Bard makes a similar claim about themselves.</p>
<p>Oberlin and Bard are probably more liberal than Lawrence.</p>
<p>Any thoughts about the three schools? Do add to the list . . .</p>
<p>I don't know much about Bard, since it was not on my son's list. Otherwise, I think I agree with what you are saying. Oberlin is probably a notch above Lawrence in prestige, and their conservatory is definitely better known, at least among those I have talked with. And Oberlin and Bard definitely have the reputation of being quite liberal. When we talked with the Admissions person from Lawrence, she emphasized that liberals and conservatives seemed pretty balanced at Lawrence, and that there was good communication between different points of view, rather than conflict.</p>
<p>And Lawrence does seem to have better coordination between conservatory and colleges. At least they were the only place my son could apply to both with one application. My son is liking Lawrence more as he reads up on it. And he has had great experiences with everyone he has talked to there during the admissions process.</p>
<p>But...we haven't heard from Oberlin yet. So, who knows?</p>
<p>wmgan, congratulations!
could you please tell what your stats were?
To what department of the conservatory did you applied?
Do you think they accept accomplished talents?
I'm an intl student from Bulgaria, applied to Lawrence and Oberlin double-degrees(voice), but was rejected...pretty frustrating...they say it's because of financial reasons, but I start doubting whether I'm qualified enough for this program...I guess it's quite competitive.
anyway, thanx in advance</p>
<p>Wmgan - My D is a freshman double-degree student (voice and probably Art Hsitory) at Lawrence. This time last year she was asking the same question as you - Lawrence vs. Oberlin. IMO there is no question that there is better integration of the two degrees at Lawrence than at Oberlin. Though Oberlin touts the availability of the double degree to prospective students, upon her investigation, coordination between the conservatory and the college is poor and there seems to be tension in their relationship. At Lawrence, on the other hand, the double-degree is promoted and supported by both faculties of the college and the conservatory. My D has advisors in both of her areas of interest and the college/conservatory have set forth clear guidelines/expectations for both of her degrees. Oberlin's double-degree option is for the student who is focused and well-disciplined to make it work. In addition, Oberlin's conservatory seems to actively discourage any study abroad. Given my D's interests in voice and Art History, she definitely wants to spend time in Italy during her college career. Lawrence has three programs in Italy - including one spectifically geared to students pursuing music. I agree with the posters above that Oberlin's conservatory has a better 'reputation' than Lawrence's does. However, remember - as other posters have emphasized elsewhere on CC, the choice of the student's music teacher is of paramount importance. When my D was applying for voice last year, she had sample lessons everywhere she applied. Although she felt comfortable with the voice teacher at Oberlin, for the reasons mentioned above, she liked Lawrence better and loved the teacher. Environment entered into the equation, too -- she felt more comfortable with the students and faculty she met at Lawrence. Though it was not the overriding factor in her final decision, she received a large merit performance award at Lawrence -- a LAC which has a reasonable overall 'pricetag' -- $32K vs. $40K at Oberlin. As an aside and only from my (the parent's) point of view -- Lawrence definitely has its act together vs. Oberlin -- whom I found extremely unresponsive and disorganized during the application/admission process. I cannot comment on Bard as my D did not apply there.</p>
<p>veselcheto, I'm sorry to hear that you've been rejected.</p>
<p>I applied for a piano major in the conservatory -- I won a national competition and was a finalist in two international competitions (Krainev and Ettlingen) but I think ultimately it's the audition that matters most.</p>
<p>Please don't take the rejection too hardly. Do you have any alternative plans? Otherwise, it may not be a bad idea to take a year off, rack up some work experience and try again.</p>
<p>Well, I will probably enroll either at Clark Unievrsity, or Franklin and Marshall College, but not as a music major. I hope there I will find a band to sing in and take some lessons or non-major courses.
I think I really am not so good singer to be accepted at Oberlin, but I'm so curious to hear what voices they accept...</p>
<p>My daughter and I returned last week from a visit to Oberlin. She is a junior and interested in vocal performance and music education. She is also interested in Lawrence. We will visit there next month. I will not speak for her but will simply provide my observations and comparisons based on my review of written material and our visit to Oberlin. The conservatory at Oberlin is independent of the college. I did not detect any specific tension but the conservatory does not emphasize academics outside of music. If you are not a double degree student, only 1/5 of the required coursework is taken outside of music and in vocal performance, there are no specific requirements to provide any educational balance across those few liberal arts courses. Some students would do fine choosing a breadth of topics on their own; others probably less well. I found the conservatory faculty to be very knowledgeable, pleasant, and generous with their time and my daughter was able to have a lesson with one of the faculty members. The physical facilites of the conservatory seemed good and were pleasant. By contrast, the arts/science college campus at Oberlin was not appealing to me. The mix of architecture was mediocre, there were dozens of cigarette butts on sidewalks near building entrances, there were raw eggs cracked on one sidewalk, the large display case at the corner of the main square was empty (I expected a campus map/directory/event schedule) and the glass was covered with residue from numerous fliers that had been posted there in the past and some torn fliers were hanging from the glass. The conservatory was "abuzz" with activity but very few people (students or otherwise) were visible at any point during our visit as we walked around the main campus. Two of the students we did see on campus were walking barefoot (it was 35 degrees). In sum, I felt confident that the Oberlin conservatory would be a great place to study music but I was less impressed with the overall atmosphere of the general campus. </p>
<p>The conservatory faculty and students with whom we spoke had positive remarks about Lawrence as another good place to study music. Based on their written materials and website, the conservatory at Lawrence is an integrated part of the institution. They require 1/3 of the coursework for the BM to be taken outside of music and also require all students to participate in the Freshman Studies program (an integrated liberal arts "introduction to thinking" course sequence). As a college professor, I find this integration very appealing. As a parent, I would like to think that yearly tuition rates between $30K and $40K would yield an educated student.</p>
<p>As is often mentioned, the fit between the music student and the teacher is indeed critical and I would agree with others who indicate that having lessons with the faculty at all top choice schools is important.</p>
<p>I will post more following our visit to Lawrence. Good luck to those awaiting word about admittance.</p>
<p>musicmomic -- Feel free to pick my brain if you have questions specifically about Lawrence. My D investigated loads of other places when she went through the application/admission process last year - but as I posted above - it came down to Lawrence and Oberlin -- with Ithaca a bit behind. Your perceptions (as a parent) of Oberlin jibe with mine completely. I think my D agreed with me but couched her opinion in more tactful terms -- 'I don't think I'd feel comfortable at Oberlin.' Each to his own! I had a positive impression of the conservatory and the voice teachers she met. However, as I mentioned above, I think the double-degree option there is for the very motivated and disciplined student. Though they tout this option in their literature, they are not as enthusiastic about it when you visit and ask hard realistic questions. It is a very hard option to pursue practically and administratively -- the college and the conservatory seem to have an 'easy' truce with the student in the middle. My impression was that the conservatory exists in its own little world and that pursuing other interests outside of it are frowned upon (i.e, the music curriculum must be primary), including, to my D, study abroad. Good luck in the process!</p>
<p>Thanks, sopranosmom and musicmomic, for your thoughts. My son has been accepted at Lawrence (double degree program, although he may switch to conservatory) and likes the looks of the college (on paper--he has not yet visited), but doesn't know much about the trumpet teacher there. He should be hearing from Oberlin any day now. If admitted, it would be one of his top choices. He is also considering a couple of large schools to which he has been admitted--U of North Texas and Indiana U. He is having a hard time deciding whether he is willing to give up the many opportunities at a large university, even though he thinks he would like the atmosphere at a small college better.</p>
<p>As for me, I would prefer to see him at a place like Lawrence, where he would get more than just a music education. I like the idea of him having to take at least 1/3 or his classes in regular academic areas. I wasn't aware that Oberlin's double degree program was not as solid as Lawrence's, so I appreciate that information.</p>
<p>I know we have been very impressed with the people we have talked to from Lawrence. All have been very helpful, friendly, and caring. I could really see my son there. But, of course, the decision will be his.</p>
<p>By the way, anyone know what typical winter weather at Lawrence is like? Is there a lot of snow? Do temperatures get really low? (Being Pacific Northwest, we are used to one or two freezing spells a winter and lots of rain, but NOT lots of cold.)</p>
<p>sopranosmom -- thanks for the invitation -- I'm sure I will need more info as the next few months unfold. After we visit Lawrence, I may ask about your D's perceptions of specific faculty members. Let me know if you accept email outside of the forum. My D is now preparing to write the music faculty at Lawrence to find out about speaking with them/visiting classes during our visit next month and taking a sample lesson with a couple of them, if possible. My D also wants to continue to play the violin so she may also try to contact one of the violin faculty about the ensemble possiblities other than the top orchestra (which she will probably not have time to fit into her schedule). </p>
<p>Also, if anyone has info about the music ed program at Lawrence, that would be helpful. At some schools (e.g., Oberlin), there is very little difference in the performance emphasis between music ed and vocal performance majors; both study privately with voice faculty, perform in ensembles, have leads in the opera, etc. Other schools seem to have music ed programs with less emphasis on performance. Any insights here would be welcome. Thanks.</p>
<p>Susantm -- Living in Iowa, I thought I'd give you some feedback on weather in the Midwest. I grew up in KY but have lived in Iowa for 23 years. It does get cold and it does snow. Most people adapt -- and learning to cover up when it's very cold is important. There is no sugar-coating it! I did a quick review of averages in Appleton and Oberlin -- </p>
<p>Averages for Dec-Jan in Appleton are:
High Temps: 28, 23, 27
Low Temps: 13, 6, 10
Snowfall (in):</p>
<p>Well, my son was waitlisted at Oberlin, and we got the financial aid offer from Indiana, which was basically nothing at all--no grants whatsoever, just a few loans and some work study, and not even enough of that to come close to meeting need. SO, it looks like both of them are out. My son was disappointed, but he did look at the bright side--his decision is made easier now. :-)</p>
<p>So it's down to Lawrence, which we know we can afford (good aid offer), and University of North Texas, which we should be able to afford , since it is cheaper overall (but we haven't received a financial aid offer for yet), and possibly U of Northern Colorado, if he gets into the music school and gets a fantastic financial aid offer there. A big school in Texas with an outstanding brass department or a small college in a scenic area but with a smaller music program. (I'm still pulling for Lawrence!)</p>
<p>If anyone has any thoughts on this, please feel free to share!</p>
<p>Susantm, I'm sorry to hear that your son was waitlisted at Oberlin.</p>
<p>I've got Lawrence, Oberlin and Bard to choose from now -- excellent aid offer from Bard, good one from Lawrence, and still pending from Oberlin. (I got an e-mail from the Oberlin conservatory saying that I'm getting a "merit award" of $16k, but I'm not sure if this will be on top of whatever financial aid I would otherwise get. I can definitely not afford to go there with just $16k of aid.)</p>
<p>I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for Yale . . .</p>
<p>Susantm -- sorry that your son was waitlisted at Oberlin. Outside of the financial issues, it sounds like it's going to come down to the 'feel' of the places to which he's been admitted -- small vs. large -- and the teacher issue. Good luck!</p>