<p>Many schools do have that requirement - when able to provide that - but not all schools can do that. With freshman housing at a premium at many schools - I can see how many freshman end up off campus - either by choice or by a forced situation :(</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>I'm sure that "The Greek Standards and Values Alignment Board, comprised of university Greek members from different fraternities and sororities" at CSU will review the unfortunate, but isolated, events and make sure that frat system emerges unscathed.</p>
<p>I wish I had answers. I appreciate the debate, because I think discussion and effort and attention are the only things that will ever lead to answers.</p>
<p>A couple weeks ago, D and I toured a certain LAC with a very strict honor code. Our young guide proudly explained how there are no electronic controls on library books, because they aren't needed. How all exams are "take home", because students live by the code, and don't cheat. How a student last year was able to leave bins of apples and tubs to collect money around campus the entire semester to raise money for charity, and everyone paid for the apples and left the open tubs of money alone -- even the townspeople.</p>
<p>Then she took us to see a dorm room. She explained that the floor we were on was for sophomores, and that it happened to be the "sub free" one, and that one of the freshmen floors was also "sub free." I was confused. I said that freshmen and sophomores were underaged; shouldn't all freshmen and sophomore floors be sub free? She was immediately defensive, and said the college couldn't be expected to control students' behavior. I pointed out that she had just explained that students caught lying, cheating or stealing were suspended for at least a semester, and probably expelled. How can the school be so successful at controlling that, and not breaking the law? She said drinking was covered under their "Code of Behavior", not their code of Honor, and was likely to result in several warnings, some intervention, etc...</p>
<p>I let it drop; we were clearly not going to see eye to eye. But I do not believe that the problem is going to go away until colleges are willing to admit that it IS a problem, and that it is desireable to CONTROL it.</p>
<p>Binx:</p>
<p>Trying to get students to stop drinking is small potatoes. The more troubling part of the equation is colleges openly supporting and promoting campus organizations whose primary function is to encourage binge drinking.</p>
<p>Hell Week is, by definition, a week when these official campus organizations, keep their new members drunk for days at a time while hazing them. The colleges know this. Yet they continue to sanction and promote these organizations. The University of Texas would drop football before it gave the frats the boot.</p>
<p>..............But I do not believe that the problem is going to go away until colleges are willing to admit that it IS a problem, and that it is desireable to CONTROL it............</p>
<p>Many schools forbid ANY alcohol on campus - regardless of age - some to just those students over 21 - which can be in a mixed dorm - some schools do apply the rules and punishments - some don't do such a good job of that. Some schools have very stringent rules and punishments. The BUT of all this is that schools are not in the business of being the 'parent' or the 'law' - they cannot control the behaviors of everyone - that would be a police state in of itself.</p>
<p>Many schools are attempting to address the alcohol problems - tho their success is yet to be measured. It won't stop tho until we all live in a police state.</p>
<p>I sure hope you're wrong, JeepMom, because I hate to think that's our choice - police state or spiraling numbers of young alcohol-related deaths.</p>
<p>There are many behaviors we all are successful at controlling in our kids. I used to teach piano, and many parents told me they "couldn't make" their kids practice. These same parents were successful at keeping their kids from playing in traffic, or "making them" make their beds, or do their homework. Piano practice was not a priority, and therefore not enforced. </p>
<p>My point was that the LAC was able to impress upon a diverse student body that cheating or stealing was wrong, with severe consequences. Everyone signed a paper in advance, acknowledging that they'd probably get kicked out for an infraction of the code. Why doesn't the school make the same case for underaged drinking? I think it's because it hasn't been made a priority.</p>
<p>I think a police state, or an over-contolling parent, is someone who controls every little thing. I don't think alcohol abuse is a little thing, though.</p>
<p>
JeepMOM~</p>
<p>We are in no disagreement here. One thing that I will NEVER say again after 20 years of parenting six kids is "never." ;)</p>
<p>I am not done yet. I still have young children who have many, many choices in front of them (as do my young adults). The <em>only</em> thing that has stayed the same over those 20 years is my feeling that my dh and I, as the kids' parents, are the first and most powerful line of defense against their making decisions with serious and life-altering consequences. If <em>we</em> are unable to do this, how can I expect a society to do it? A college? </p>
<p>The people who know me IRL KNOW that I am much, much harder on myself than I am on anyone else. The buck stops HERE. I would NEVER entrust a bureaucratic entity to watch out for the well-being of my kids the way I do. Let's just say that I do not have the faith in the "system" to count on that. It's just not a chance that I have wished to take.</p>
<p> [quote] Many schools are attempting to address the alcohol problems - tho their success is yet to be measured. It won't stop tho until we all live in a police state.
I completely concur with this statement. How many of the parents on this site arguing that the schools should be culpable would be HORRIFIED if the schools instituted random drug/alcohol testing with consequences in place for those who did not pass? How many would be happy to see their kids busted repeatedly, which would happen if the schools decided to <em>really</em> crack down.</p>
<p>I personally am in TOTAL agreement that events/activites KNOWN to be ones where serious alcohol abuse occurs should be stopped or very closely monitored, not only for the safety of the students but also in protection of the college which many feel are responsible for the students' errant behavior. Mixed messages are totally irresponsible, and I have been arguing against this ALL fall with regard to our high school's yearbook.</p>
<p>BINX - I agree with you - but........... I don't know a single parent who - when their kids leave the house - for social purposes or for college - who can totally control what that person does - especially away at school - on their own for the first time for many - sowing some kind of oats of their own. As parents we can teach til the cows come home - but the choice is ultimately theirs in the end. They aren't kids anymore - they are considered to be adults as far as the colleges are concerned - and unless they are going to institute alcohol testing everytime a student returns to campus - it certainly won't be controlled - and I doubt very much any college would go to that extreme. College kids do have to take control over their own behavior and be responsible. Those same parents who were successful at keeping their kids from playing in traffic, etc....... loose that control when the kiddo is no longer under their roof - and many in high school - but have blinders on when it comes to alcohol and/or drug use with their own kiddos - sad to say but in alot of cases - true!</p>
<p>The LAC you speak of - I am sure - has some controls for those out of control - but they certainly cannot police every single student - legal or underage - who makes the choice to drink. I also don't think I would take the comments of 1 student as all knowing - but would further investigate the real life situation at that school before writing it off. I don't think alcohol abuse is a little thing either - it scares me alot - but that being said - I have no control over my student 800 miles away.</p>
<p>BERURAH - very well said again :)</p>
<p>I went thru a Hell Week at a national frat and there was no drinking of alcohol involved. Now there was drinking and eating of several vile things but I don't think they had any booze in them. Most drinking is during the rushing period when you are treated very well. During pledging there was little drinking and none that was required.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Stickershock, what a load. Of course not all high school kids drink.
[/quote]
MOWC: You may think it is a crock, but I have heard many, many parents state that "every kid does it." My guess is that this attitude is motivated by envy. You claim that you are not one of the parents who makes this statement. So how do you have any better guess as to the motivation for this statement than I?</p>
<p>I doubt any parent would seriously insist that 100% of high schoolers drink. I just can't grasp "envy" as an applicable emotion here. A parent might wish they had a more sedate kid who did not violate the laws against underaged drinking, but to say a parent might "envy" another family or kid for abstaining- nope.<br>
My D is a responsible drinker. I have absolutely no problem with her being a drinker. I never even had the slightest preference that she NOT drink. If I envy anyone, it's the parents who don't have a worry in the world about their college kids since they "know" they don't drink- these same kids whose AIM away messages report on how hung-over they are!
By the way, a recent anonymous survey reports that 80% of high schoolers have cheated in a significant manner. I'm glad we are all parents of that 20% who don't.</p>
<p>I'm with MOWC here. I think probably at least 75% of college students drink and that's probably a conservative estimate. The parents of those other 25% are very lucky but I do not envy them. No one is spared in the game of life. </p>
<p>The choice to drink responsibly/abstain is one thing that students can control themselves and lower their chances of physical harm if they choose to abstain or practice moderation. Parents do not have much to do with this IMO. Heavy drinkers can have tee-totalers and abstainers can have binge drinkers. We can only educate our kids as to the hazards of binge drinking and then step back and hope for the best.</p>
<p>"I am wondering all these things because Towers is my s's fallback dorm in case he doesn't get into one of the better on campus dorms. Yikes....."</p>
<p>ag54 - My d was set to stay at Castilian, another private dorm. I hear it is social without being notorious and out of control. Dobie Center is probably the quietest of all the private dorms, but newer, bigger with living room layouts and more expensive...and I hear rumors that they had sick building syndrome for a while. University Towers is by far the biggest party dorm...not the place for serious students. (I'll probably get a Tower's resident popping in to disagree...but my d knows tons of kids at Texas and I think she has pretty good scoop on the dorm situation.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are many behaviors we all are successful at controlling in our kids. I used to teach piano, and many parents told me they "couldn't make" their kids practice. These same parents were successful at keeping their kids from playing in traffic, or "making them" make their beds, or do their homework. Piano practice was not a priority, and therefore not enforced.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Binx has a good parallel here. </p>
<p>Parents don't succeed in getting kids to practice a musical instrument in many cases because they don't take this "requirement" as seriously as they take other requirements -- such as the requirement to complete homework.</p>
<p>Similarly, colleges don't succeed in controlling drinking because they don't really take the problem as seriously as they do other important problems -- such as racial prejudice and sexual harrassment. The culture of many campuses is very accepting of alcohol abuse, and I don't see a lot of serious efforts being made to change that culture.</p>
<p>Case in point: The fight song of my own alma mater (Cornell), which has been sung after every football touchdown and hockey goal for several generations. The lyrics of this song tell the story of a student who has been suspended for a semester because of poor academic performance resulting from excessive drinking (something that he half-brags about) and who is looking forward to seeing his friends again when he returns to college the next fall. Where does he plan to meet those friends? In a local bar.</p>
<p>Nobody seems to notice these lyrics or to find them objectionable. But I think we can all agree that if the lyrics to the fight song had included a racial slur or a joking reference to date rape, they would have been changed long ago. It's all a matter of what you take seriously.</p>
<p>I agree wtih MOWC too, since I have seen the children of terrific, involved, moral, ethical parents, who clearly instilled good values, go completely nuts away at school.</p>
<p>While it would be nice to congratulate ourselves, and consider it our excellent parenting, that prevents some kids from going directions of which we don't approve, there is more than a little temperment and personality of the kid involved in how things unfold.</p>
<p>I think if we are lucky enough to have a kid who doesn't unravel at some point, we should consider ourselves lucky, not pat ourselves on the back.</p>
<p>My two cents...for what it is worth.</p>
<p>Marian, that's an excellent example. You're right - an offensive word, mascot, attitude would be changed. But drinking is an accepted part of college culture. The question now is should it be?</p>
<p>By the way, I agree that many "good" (whatever that is) parents have kids that go nuts in college. Parents are often asked to share an unfair load of blame for their children's actions. But surely because we're afraid our kids' problems might reflect badly on us - that doesn't mean we have to pretend it's not a problem?</p>
<p>I guess I'm more interested in finding solutions, seeing parents and colleges take the problem seriously, than in hearing excuses. Unless the excuses help us uncover the reasons why it is happening in the first place. This has nothing to do with whether my kids drink or not (or yours) - I don't have to be personally affected by a problem in order for me to feel it's a problem.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned a statistic about cheating - a high number of students apparently cheat. But we don't expect colleges to look the other way when it happens, just because so many do it. If your kid is caught cheating, what consequence do you think he should suffer? If he is caught drinking, would those consequences be more severe, or less? Is cheating an integrity problem, and drinking a behavior problem? Is there a difference? Or are both "situational ethics" or peer pressure problems?</p>
<p>As I said earlier, I don't have any answers; I'm just really interested in seeing colleges take it seriously. I'm interested in meaningful discussion, thoughts, ideas that might lead to solutions. (And regarding the LAC we visited, I have since heard (I haven't documented it) that they have had two alcohol poisoning deaths in the past couple years.)</p>
<p>Thanks ldmom, I am hoping he gets into either san jacinto or the new dorm opening up in jan. If he gets in bhp, then he will live in an honors dorm whether he wants to or not!</p>
<p>
Agreed. 100%.</p>
<p>However, I refuse to go through the labor/stress/anguish of parenting with the philosophy that what I do doesn't matter at ALL, that in fact, kids will turn out how they will turn out whether we parent them or not. In fact, that's not even remotely how I feel. </p>
<p>The view that parents with essentially non-limit pushing and basically rule obeying kids are constantly patting themselves on the back or feeling superior is ludicrous. Perhaps some are...many aren't, myself included. They are just doing what everyone else does--muddling through.</p>
<p>Please realize that I came to parenting with NO support from my own parents. My birth family was hideously dysfunctional and my mother, who never "mothered" her own children, certainly wasn't about to lend advice (just as well), support, or whatever to ME when I was a mother.</p>
<p>Therefore, when I observed people in my environment who seemed to have good success as a mother, who didn't have kids who "unraveled," I paid close attention. In fact, I still do this (Go BINX!!!!--yes, I'd take advice from binx ANY day of the week! :) ). But instead of adopting their ways unquestioningly, I adapt them to our values and our family's way of functioning. The thing I didn't do was berate them. I didn't accuse them of patting themselves on the back, and most importantly, I attributed to them SOME credit for how their children turned out--and I tried to learn from them.</p>
<p>What can I say? :confused: It's served me well. And while I do not spend time patting myself on the back, I am <em>most</em> proud of the fact that I have six VERY different children with different capacities for "mischief" that all seem to, at least for <em>NOW</em>, realize the importance of self control and exhibiting decent personal conduct. To be blatantly honest, I really do NOT take the credit for myself. Instead, I, in large part, credit their oldest brother who has set a phenomenal example for the five younger ones because he has accomplished by DOING that which would have perhaps failed to "take" if it were conveyed only though his father's and my words.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Quote from Berurah:</p>
<p>"Well, I'll forgive this misguided post since you are either 1.) a newbie, or 2.) someone who has a vendetta against me because you think that <em>I</em> think that my kids are "perfect.""</p>
<p>It's sad that you feel the need to insult people that disagree with you. (Yes, clearly I must have a "vendetta" against you...lol.) I took the liberty of searching your previous posts on CC, and I see that this is a pattern for you. I could never keep up with someone who has made 300 posts in the last three weeks anyway.... I'll refrain from bothering to express disagreement with any of your posts in the future, as I'm much more interested in discussing opinions themselves than the character of the poster.</p>