Any kids getting into Ivies without AP Calc?

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Note that the admit rate was ~58% for applicants with 5+ APs in this 3.9+UW group, higher than the ~39% admit rate for 1-2 APs. This is consistent with the humanities major who took AP calc/sciences, along with humanities APs, while still managing a 3.9+ UW overall GPA having a greater chance of admission than the applicant who took only 1-2 APs in his specialty. However, a ~39% admit rate to a selective college like Cornell for the 1-2 AP classes group is too high to dismiss as little hope or all being non-URM hooks.</p>

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<p>Getting admitted to a college (whether super-selective or not) may not result in a happy ending if the student is unprepared to do college level work, as is likely the case if the high school has so little confidence in its precalculus math courses preparing students for an easier version of a college frosh math course.</p>

<p>That’s why the super selectives review so intensely. It’s not a dart board, they know the level kids have to be prepared for. In the end, they can cherry pick. </p>

<p>We were talking about a hs that set a standard of an A in precalc, to get into AP calc. If the kid gets a non-A, what do you want to do? It’s not an A. It’s on his record. Do we know the problem is that the high school doesn’t have confidence in its precalc? What if they do and they simply feel the B kids didn’t meet the bar? </p>

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But I suspect that they want to see AP in math and English. You don’t have to take all the more exotic APs. (This is just my theory–I have no proof other than anecdotal evidence). I think if you examined those kids with 1, 2, or 3 APs, most of them will be the only APs those high schools offer, or at least they will be the most “academic” APs–such as math, English, and a science or history.</p>

<p>There are lots of US high schools that only offer 1-2 APs. Some of those schools are elite prep schools like the one I attended, which designs its own unique courses.</p>

<p>Hunt, I think the key part is “in all fields,” referring to the rush some kids have to take 8-10+ and/or self study a long list. They still need a wise selection of “highest level” courses. </p>

<p>Those elite prep schools still run under different rules for admissions.</p>

<p>I agree with Hunt that it seems risky to skip AP English and AP Calc, but I can give you a nice list of schools that didn’t seem to care that neither of my kids took AP English. (Harvard, Tufts, CMU, Vassar and U of Chicago). As stated upthread, my older son had extra math and all the sciences covered as well as three non STEM APs. My younger son took three AP History classes, AP Bio, AP Physics C and AP Calc. </p>

<p>My son loved his English elective senior year so much that I really think it was worth it just for that. If it cost him an admissions or two (he had plenty of rejections too!) so be it. </p>

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<p>If the B students in the high school’s precalculus are considered unprepared for AP calculus AB, then they will be hurting badly when they go to college and take college calculus, which covers material at a faster pace.</p>

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<p>The elite prep schools whose courses may be more rigorous than AP courses are probably small in number compared to low quality schools which offer few or no AP courses because too few students are prepared for them. There may also be very small schools where students who would take AP courses are too small in number to make them worth offering with limited resources.</p>

<p>Ucb- and the selective colleges both know that a non-A can mean less prepared(or less diligent) and have plenty of kids to choose among with A in precalc, AP calc, etc. (For kids who will run into college calculus, that is. Or whose majors require the skills. For other kids, there are of course, other college options to fill a math requirement.) </p>

<p>Ime, plenty of “low quality” hs are now offering AP. And the quality of the LoRs suggests able and committed teachers. I don’t think you can compare AP calc at “anywhere” to, say, the expectations at TJ. But it’s wrong to assume all A grades at lesser hs are given out like candy. </p>

<p>There are no doubt HSs that offer only 1-2 APs, but I’d expect a larger portion of students who take 1-2 APs attend HSs that offer more than 1-2 APs. Many students who attend HSs that offer several AP classes only take 1 or 2, and some of this group applies to selective colleges. For example, at the basic public HS I attended, there were a few students who took accelerated/advanced everything, but a larger portion of students took advanced classes in some subjects and not others, such as a brilliant humanities kid who takes AP English, but does not take AP calc. And many of these same students who did not take advanced everything applied to Cornell (my HS was in upstate NY, so more students applied to Cornell than any other highly selective college). Some were accepted. Some were not.</p>

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I wouldn’t say don’t care, but the point I’ve been making is taking an AP that has little relation to major/interests/specialty is not mandatory for admission at many selective colleges. My background sounds similar to the son that you described earlier, including excelling in math/science/CS, excelling in AP calc and AP CS while taking at a younger than typical age, etc. And like your son, I skipped AP English and was still accepted to selective colleges including ivies, Stanford, and MIT.</p>

<p>Some hs with a variety of APs are restrictive about when a kid an take them (eg, not before jr or senior year) or how many in one year. Depending on region, some hs have addl grad requirements- ethics, local history, civics, misc arts and more that plum get in the way. Good planning helps. </p>

<p>There is a difference between loading up on APs, assuming the kid with the most APs wins, versus making wise choices, challenging yourself and doing well. If you want a rigorous college, show them you can choose and manage rigor. </p>

<p>I know someone with no APs - his school offered one in English only - and he got into Penn. Very poor HS, but he took the most competitive courses offered there. Parents didn’t go to college, not a minority though. No sports or other hook.</p>

<p>AP Calc, yes it is required if you take engineering or a physical science (let alone math majors!), but otherwise, I’m sure you can avoid it.</p>

<p>But if you consider you have to have a lot of math ability to get in the 700s on the math SAT, you should at least be taking honors calculus senior year of HS.</p>

<p>FWIW, our HS (90-somethng % of grads go to 4 year college) offers the following Calc options. Basically to take AP you need a B in the pre-calc (we have regular Analysis or IAP which is a tougher Analysis team taught with Physics).</p>

<p>Fundamentals of Calculus
This course is designed for the student who was challenged by Math Analysis or Integrated Analysis and Physics but did not qualify for AP Calculus. This course is an Introductory Calculus course that includes the following topics: functions and graphs, relations, derivatives and applications, continuity and limits, the differential, indefinite and definite integrals and applications. Prerequisite: IAP or Analysis</p>

<p>AP Calculus AB
This course is the next step in the sequence of courses to be taken by students who plan to continue studying mathematics or science at the college level. The syllabus for this course is the Calculus AB syllabus published by The College Board. Prerequisite: Grade of 83% average or higher in IAP or Analysis</p>

<p>AP Calculus BC
This course is the next step in the sequence of courses to be taken by students who plan to continue studying
mathematics or science at the college level. The syllabus for this course is the Calculus BC syllabus published by
The College Board. Prerequisite: Grade of 83% average or higher in AP Calculus AB</p>

<p>“There is a difference between loading up on APs, assuming the kid with the most APs wins, versus making wise choices, challenging yourself and doing well. If you want a rigorous college, show them you can choose and manage rigor.”</p>

<p>Well said.</p>

<p>rhandco, I wonder about whether colleges truly have time to look into the background of student and their high school, and if so, does it make a difference.</p>

<p>Our local high school has an average SAT of 1309 for all three sections of the SAT. It’s 86% traditionally underrepresented students; that is, we are a minority white family. My son’s SAT, in comparison, is 2230. The high school is 4 in one, and two of the schools have some of the lowest SAT scores in the city.</p>

<p>We are middle/lower middle income, but my son doesn’t attend this school. We chose to homeschool for a variety of reasons. My son will have no AP scores to share with colleges. He will have taken 30.5 units of community college at the time of applications, and will take 4 AP exams in his senior year, but I am pretty sure, even though we come from a pretty “humble” area, because homeschoolers can be so high achieving (like my oldest, who only had 5 AP exams when he applied to schools but a whole bunch of other amazing stuff), I think schools won’t see him in context of our area.</p>

<p>What do you think?</p>

<p>He won’t have his Calc AP score until after he applies.</p>

<p>My school does offer AP Calc AB and BC. I will be applying for a STEM major (engineering to be exact) and I will be taking Pre-Calculus senior year. My excuse, however, is a valid one. In my district whether or not you will take AP Calc senior year is decided in the 8th grade. The fact that I was placed in Pre-Algebra instead of Algebra in 8th grade basically determined that I was not going to take AP Calc in high school.</p>

<p>Another thing I can note on my application is that I tried to take a Pre-Calculus class at my local community college summer before Senior Year, but the class was filled up. Because I showed determination to take Calculus in high school and still could not, I do not believe that it will be held against me. </p>

<p>Basically what I’m trying to say is that if you have a reason that you were unable to take AP Calc in high school I do not think they will hold it against you.</p>

<p>Also, I am taking AP science classes and other STEM AP’s (Comp Sci, etc.) that will make my schedule look better for a STEM major.</p>

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This is not necessarily true for engineering majors (and likely other majors that emphasize use of calculus) at highly selective colleges. For example, the Cornell school of engineering admissions FAQ at <a href=“http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/admissions/undergraduate/faqs.cfm”>http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/admissions/undergraduate/faqs.cfm&lt;/a&gt; says that engineering applicants who attend a HS that does not offer calculus should try to take a calculus class at a community college or through an online program, such as Stanford EPGY, as quoted below. Not taking calculus will put applicants at a “substantial disadvantage relative to the engineering applicant pool.”

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<p>I do understand that, but if you tried to enroll in a Calculus class at your community college and it was full I don’t think they can hold that against you. In my case, I showed determination and will to take challenging classes, but it just wasn’t at all possible.</p>