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<p>People, especially those from the suburban tri-state were saying the exact same thing 20+ years ago back when I was in HS. </p>
<p>That doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions or allowances made due to the background of a given individual student. </p>
<p>We have been tracking this sort of thing for the past twenty years or so, and even though they were saying the same thing around twenty years ago, things HAVE changed and I have to say in our own high school there ARE indeed vast differences that become apparent over a span of five years or so. </p>
<p>That said, in our suburban district, students have gotten into less competitive Ivies without AP calc, but the students getting into HYP all seemed to have at least calc AB. Students have gotten into Amherst and Williams without AP calc, within the past 5 years.</p>
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<p>I got into Vassar, Oberlin, Emory, Brown WL in 1984 with no math past Algebra II…ahhh the 80’s.</p>
<p>@ReadyToRoll does your school also offer AP Calc BC? At most schools Calc AB is the easy course and BC is the tougher one. I’ve heard of some school that also have an even-easier-than AB Calc, but given that AB is normally about the equivalent of a semester of college calc, it’s hard to see that it would truly be that difficult unless they have misnamed it. For what it’s worth Harvard asks to see “four years of math” but they don’t specify which level that fourth year needs to be. It is about local context. I’d be surprised if there are too many Stuy students any more getting into Harvard without some sort of Calculus. If only because the testing regime to get in now has pretty much precluded anyone arriving at Stuy without enough math.</p>
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<p>Technically, my LAC wanted 3-4 years of science…preferably with lab from its applicants when I applied. However, I knew several college classmates who were admitted despite having less. </p>
<p>One standout case was an older classmate with just 2 years of science and they were non-lab rocks for jocks type courses. Same student was also admitted to an Ivy…albeit due to legacy. </p>
<p>If a given applicant has other compelling aspects/circumstances to his/her application, adcoms then and now are willing to bend/waive stipulated requirements.</p>
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<p>Actually, the math portion of the SHS exam hasn’t changed content-wise from the version people in my incoming class took. </p>
<p>^It’s not the content - it’s whose getting the top scores.</p>
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<p>Not everyone who had top scores on the HS entrance exam ended up going to elite universities including the HYPSMCCs. </p>
<p>Conversely, those who barely passed said exam ended up getting admitted to the latter…including said MIT friend. A lot can change in 4 years…</p>
<p>That was then, this is now.<br>
A lot changes every year. </p>
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<p>I made my remarks about the SHS exam since Mathmom mentioned something about the SHS testing regime and math content which made an implication which I know is incorrect. The math content on that entrance exam hardly changed for the last 20+ years. </p>
<p>I’m taking this from my own experience taking the actual exam back then along with comparing it with publicly available sample problems from the DOE’s website, alumni association, and current test prep books available in the NYC library systems. </p>
<p>What also seems to surprise me is that each school manages AB and BC calc a bit differently. It seems at our high school, AB calc covers almost all of what is covered in two semesters of college calculus, and BC calc (always taken after AB calc) goes into multivariable calculus and differential equations. Most students will get a 5 on the AP exam even if they did not get an A in the class. Some of the students who take the non-AP calc class also take the AP exam. I do not know if any take this as a junior and then move into BC calc. A B in AB calc is required to move on to BC, and I am guessing that an A in the non-AP class would also work. Occasional students find that they do not hit their stride in math until they get to calculus.</p>
<p>Students who take AB calc will typically start with calc 2 and find that it is almost all review of what they learned in high school. Those who have taken BC will generally start with calc 3 and report that it is mostly review of what they learned in BC. </p>
<p>What I have also noticed over the past ten or fifteen years is that enrollment in the BC class is way up, especially among students intending to major in math, physics, or engineering.Even if students did not accelerate in sixth grade, they are able to move up by doubling up on algebra 2 and geometry or taking a summer class, and most students in BC calculus seem to have gone this route. </p>
<p>I have heard that some students are also taking calc classes at the local community college over summers in order to open up schedules for more AP classes and art/music classes during the school year, but no idea how common this has become. </p>
<p>I expect there is a good amount of variation in the importance of taking AP calc depending on what field the applicant plans to study. For example, Cornell lists required and recommended courses for their different schools at <a href=“http://admissions.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/2014%20Freshman%20Admission%20Requirements.pdf”>http://admissions.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/2014%20Freshman%20Admission%20Requirements.pdf</a> . The math requirements and recommendations differ between the different schools. Engineering school applicants are required to take 4 years of math, including calculus. The table also mentions that the engineering school is looking for applicants with “strong skills in math and science.” The eng school website goes even further saying that eng applicants should find a way to take calculus, even if it is not offered at their HS, making it clear that taking calculus is critical and not doing so puts eng applicants at an extreme disadvantage. In contrast, Arts & Science school applicants are required to take 3 years of math, with no mention of calculus in either the table or the A&S website. Where the eng table mentions looking for strong skills in math and science, the A&S table mentions looking for “a strong commitment to the liberal arts and sciences.” </p>
<p>Other ivies with separate schools for engineering students follow a similar pattern. For example, Penn’s website mentions, “Engineering applicants are strongly encouraged to take the highest levels of physics and calculus available in their secondary schools,” but they don’t make a similar statement about advanced math for college of A&S school applicants. In general, I’d expect taking AP calc to be much more important for a prospective engineering major than a prospective English major.</p>
<p>@cobrat, if you can tell me how many kids graduate from Stuy these days without calculus, and how many of those go to highly selective colleges these days, I’d be happy to stand corrected. That would mean I assume that you would have kids who got into Stuy without having Algebra in 8th grade or if they didn’t, didn’t catch up with their peers by doubling up math or taking it in the summer.</p>
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<p>That is correct. There’s always a small contingent who due to having gone to public schools without advanced math programs or SP/G & T programs or who weren’t part of such programs are in that very position. </p>
<p>They just get placed in a math course appropriate to their level and go on from there. Lowest track starts with 9th grade algebra/geometry mix which means a student will enter senior year taking pre-calc unless he/she takes summer school for advancement. </p>
<p>Keep in mind, some NYC area junior high school admins won’t allow students to double up or don’t offer advanced math courses period. The lowest track at my HS is meant to take this situation into account and hopefully, the GC report writers are including this information when writing to colleges on behalf of these students. </p>
<p>Also, one can’t make correlative assumptions on one’s math level or SHS entrance exam score and how one does in college admissions 4 years later. </p>
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<p>The implication of this position is that your high school’s math courses are of inferior quality. AP calculus AB is easier than frosh calculus in college because it goes at a slower pace. So if only the A students in honors precalculus in your high school are ready for even the slower paced AP calculus AB course, that means that everyone else will struggle in frosh calculus in college, or have to take remedial precalculus courses in college before taking frosh calculus in college.</p>
<p>“AB is easier than frosh calculus in college because it goes at a slower pace.” That’s not a fair comparison. Yes, the AB material is covered over a full year in most high schools instead of a semester as it would be in college. But those high school kids take more courses at the same time. A full course load at our high school is 8 courses. If we used a semester schedule instead of a yearlong schedule, then AB would be a semester long class, and it would be one of 4 classes the student is taking. Some college students may take a heavier load, but some are doing exactly that. It’s not “easier” if you look at the context. Just different scheduling, and moving more slowly is easier for some, better in my opinion, but could be more difficult for students who find it hard to juggle 8 classes, forget the material over time, and prefer to focus.</p>
<p>May be a different story in high schools where 6 courses is considered a full load.</p>
<p>I think it bears repeating what Hanna said earlier–what matters for selective college admission is not so much the specific courses you take, but whether you took the most challenging courses available and how well you did in them. AND your standardized test scores. AND your extracurriculars. AND your recommendations (and maybe your interview).</p>
<p>I’m sure Harvard takes some kids every year who didn’t take the most advanced math offered by their high schools–but I’m pretty sure that all of these kids had some strong characteristic that made them attractive, like measurable achievement in some arts field, for example. I don’t like to rain on anybody’s parade, but if you’re looking for admission to the most selective schools, and you don’t have some really unusual characteristic, you don’t want to decline to take your high school’s most challenging curriculum. While it may be true that an A in regular calculus is better than a B in AP calculus–both of those kids will be edged out by the kid with an A in AP calculus, and there are plenty of them.</p>
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<p>However, 8 high school courses is typically less than 4 college courses in terms of material covered. Also, many high schools have only 7 or 6 periods, and many students take at least one course like PE/sports, shop, etc…</p>
<p>The point still stands – if the high school believes that only an A in honors precalculus is sufficient preparation for AP calculus AB, then there should be some serious questioning of the high school’s math courses and curricula, because the normal expectation is that completion of high school precalculus (not necessarily honors, and not necessarily with an A grade) is sufficient preparation for calculus in college (which covers material at a faster pace than AP calculus AB).</p>
<p>But again, this isn’t about breezing through college calculus. It’s about getting admitted, in the first place.<br>
A number of hs have to limit the sizes of certain AP classes. Sometimes it’s seats, other times it’s past experiences with letting in kids who aren’t up to it. Sorry if this is curt, but If your school limits AP calc to kids with an A in pre-calc, then get an A in pre-calc. Of course, it’s most important for STEM applicants and especially engineering. The Ivy competition is such that a B in precalc is rare among STEM finalists. </p>
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There is a difference between taking a challenging curriculum and taking the highest level AP class available in all fields, including those not relevant to your expected major, Highly selective colleges often make statements saying students do NOT need to take the highest level AP class in all fields. An example quote from the Dean of Admission at Stanford is below:
Consistent with this, the stats below show the admit rate to Cornell over the past 3 years for non-URM Parchment RD applicants with a 3.9+ UW GPA by number of AP classes. Applicants with a high GPA who took only 1-2 AP classes had a respectable admit rate. Sure some of them were non-URM hooks that managed to get a 3.9+ UW or attended a HS that only offered 1-2 AP classes, but I’d expect many of this group did not take all AP classes available. Instead they took AP classes related to their specialty/passion/expected major, but did not take other available AP classes in less related areas, such as my prospective humanities major not taking AP calc example. Cornell even offers a course in pre-calculus, for admitted students who not only did not take calculus, but do not have a sufficient pre-calculus background. I don’t think it’s as simple as everyone has to take AP calc instead of honors calc, or they have little hope of being admitted.</p>
<p>0 APs – 42%
1-2 APs – 39%
3-4 APs – 39%
5-6 APs – 58%
7+ APs – 57% (small sample size)</p>
<p>There are so many variables that simply do not show up in data sets. No, a transcript doesn’t have to brim with APs. (In fact, some excesses can look foolish.) But, as with other threads, the theoretical doesn’t always fit. The humanities major who did take AP calc (and AP bio, chem, maybe physics,) and got A’s, who has rigor appropriate to her major, who also nailed the rest of the app details, experiences, perspective, self-match and LoRs, can be mighty attractive. Where does that show up in statistics? </p>